See also: IRC log
<MichaelC> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Date: 13 January 2011
<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka & Mike_Smith
<janina> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> scribenick: oedipus
JS: 2 hour meeting - 2
... hoped laura was going to attend -- wanted to clear up confusion over Issue 122
<trackbot> ISSUE-122 does not exist
JS: 122 (lady of shallot) top of agenda
GJR: above link is fulfillment of action item assigned at HTML WG f2f
JS: TF approved GJR"s proposal -- then found out laura had competing proposal -- go forward despite that -- lets take a look at her proposal -- need to come to closure on this
MC: want to compare change
proposal from GJR and LauraC -- also older one from SteveF
(Steve's is a null proposal)
... Laura & GJR put in change proposal after call for counter proposals to SteveF
<MichaelC> Laura's change proposal on issue-122
MC: Laura is "remove info about text alternatives"
GJR: my propsal is a refinement of LauraC's proposal
MC: LauraC suggesting that should be WCAG tecniques
JS: not far off mark
GJR: suggested verbiage change and pointed to Alt Techs and WCAG 2.0
JS: 2 questions: what should
document say, where should document live?
... propose move to approve GJR propsal as agreed-to at TPAC -- ask Laura to rescind proposal -- WCG needs to discuss how to handle normative advice on @alt text -- should it be in HTML area or in WCAG?
GJR: 2 not mutually exclusive -- tried to do pass-off to both
JS: want to perfect language
JF: where does SteveF's Alt Techs factor into this mix?
MC: GJR references it, Laura doesn't
JS: same omnibus question -- Laura reacting to someting in consensus guidance on alt text from a year ago -- said all guidance should live in WAI space
JF: going to get pushback from larger group
MC: reason why Steve started alt techs document in HTML5 space
JS: more a policy question for W3C
JF: question is: where do we want
definitive guidance to live?
... 3 options: inside HTML5 draft, in WCAG Techs or in SteveF's stand-alone draft of alt text techs
... all come from collective community in W3C, so we need to make up our minds as to where info should be
MC: agree -- want to exist somewhere rather than nowhere -- steveF's document is applicable to ANY language, so kinda odd that part of HTML5, but on other hand...
JS: still think this is a decision outside of our purview
JF: we need to provide subject matter expertise -- get everything out of HTML5 spec and point to SteveF's doc as current requirements from a11y community
JS: trying to take 122 off of our plate in a useful way -- where should live going to take an administrative question -- multiple groups involved -- should be addressed by W3M
MC: if groups agree, could work out ourselves, but seems to be disagreement between TF and WG
JS: where lives separate issue
from where it lives
... propose that GJR and Laura do not disagree in any substantive way
... need to get Laura to submit question of "where" this info should reside
... question in 122 is what should guidance say, not where it should live
GJR: answered question in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
JS: not saying don't want to address where should live -- separate issue from what guidance should say -- decoupling the 2 will lead to positive momentum
MC: bring to whom? WAI CG? chairs' call for HTML5? judy?
JS: falls on facillitatators --
1st step is explain to laura our discussion and decision to
decouple what from where
... address to chairs and judy jointly -- topic for WAI CG i believe
... if WAI CG needs to have a position on where this type of info should reside -- traditionally, that has been in WAI space
... want to address issue comprehensively, not ad hoc or case-by-case
<scribe> ACTION: Janina - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-20].
JS: not clear what status of this is in TF -- resolved at TPAC and have a snag (competing proposal)
MC: proposal from Steve, null change proposal from hixie, and an older change proposal from hixie
<MichaelC> Change proposal from Steve
JS: asked Leonie to look at it
LW: steve said he'd help set up change proposal, then realized had already been written -- forwarded to list, but Laura said had been filed, so i am confused as to status
JS: is SteveF's proposal adequate? reflect conclusions of TPAC f2f meetings?
LW: think is ok
MC: hasn't been substantially changed since april 2010
JF: non-controversial -- saying @title not sufficient for a11y
LW: agree with JF
<MichaelC> Discussion of ISSUE-80 at TPAC 2010
MC: discussing issue 31 and 80 in
context with each other -- relationship is affirmed multiple
... hard to grok minutes from TPAC
JS: comfortable that SteveF's proposal reflects the majority opinion of TF
<JF> +1 to that idea
proposed RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
LW: plus 1 -- succinct
JS: need WBS?
MC: probably should
... could do 24 hour CfC
JS: make it 48 hours
RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
JS: change proposal to move forward?
JS: Laura has proposal she believes covers this
JF: Laura sent note to list citing wiki page -- dileneating change proposal choices at above URI from JF
MC: pretty helpful albeit gargantuan
JS: Laura very good at collating
issues and proposals
... how to procede in TF on this?
JF: without looking at first
table (what allowed and what isn't allowed) -- seems to me that
what we want is the best solution
... seems to me that requirment set 2 meets the definition of sufficient in my mind
MC: analysis of what each change proposal does -- can survey characteristics and ask if aria-labelledby should be used, etc. -- get yes and nos to match up to column on Laura's table
JF: or the column that doesn't
... sounds like right way forward
requirement set 2: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
JF: prepared to be flexible on
@alt as long as something in its place that works today
... aria-labelledby would be acceptable if no @alt
MC: also favor that approach
JS: objections to surveying to resolve this issue?
[no objections logged]
JS: WBS is the way forward for this
MC: can prepare survey with 6 yes
or no questions
... will try and get survey ready in real-time during call when not involved in topics
JS: orphaned with Everett's withdrawl -- does not currently have an owner
JS: any volunteers?
GJR: took tablist from everett -- someone else should take this up
JF: question becomes: "what kind of special behavior (if any) are we expecting from the modal thing?
JS: let's define "modal"
GJR: note that hixie marked this as Rationale: Concurred with reporter's comments, but it's still too early.
JF: would not the behavior we talked about here be covered by ARIA live regions? in GUI sense, modal is like a dialog box (such as pop-up) that takes specific focus -- usually modal dialog requires interaction from user before can procede with larger contextual thing dealing with
JS: live region in same screen relating to changes in viewport
LW: live region is just a portion
of primary page that is updated -- modal is something
ancilliary to primary page (pop-up)
... modal overlaid on top of it
JF: Evertt cites wikipedia def of
... do we really need a modal attribute
JS: hixie says "this is too soon"
GJR: no no guidance
... state of bug is "CLOSED LATER" no indication of where can be
JF: quotes from hixie about waiting to add -- seems weak
JS: MikeSmith, comments? advice? ask ian for more specificity on when?
<JF> when is later?
MS: not going to be productive -- don't think can pin editor down on this -- marked as "CLOSED LATER" -- "Later" state in bugzilla only way to track bugs like this that are not WONTFIX, but open to discussion later
JF: when is leter?
JS: is later HTML5.next?
MS: yes, or can be escalated
MS: nothing will happen unless
someone takes ownership of this and pushes to get
... decision policy from HTML WG side, bug in "correct" state -- comments can still be added to bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
JF: concerned about HTML5.next
because no timeline or commitment to doing a revision
... could this be addressed by ARIA? talk of ARIA 1.1 closer than HTML5 -- would moving to ARIA solve problem statement with aria-role="modal"
<kliehm> There's aria-role="dialog"
JF: marco mentioned problems with something like whitebox -- if used "dialog" role or newly minted "modal" role suffice?
JS: something we run into regardless of host language, so appropriate to use ARIA to solve -- host language independent
MR: if have ARIA role "modal" can
use DIV element in HTML5 and AT would be able to put focus in
whatever is inside modal DIV -- solve problem by retaining
tabindex for element for which is assigned; not quite live
JS: should we make a request of the ARIA caucus?
[no objections logged]
RESOLUTION: ask ARIA Caucus to consider a modal attribute for ARIA to address http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
JF: raised resolution to ask aria caucus to look at this bug -- is there an issue associated with it and how to dispose?
JF: move whole problem statement to ARIA
<scribe> ACTION: GJR - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2011-01-20].
MS: can close without prejudice
so can be reoponed later based on new info
... remove from current set of issues awaiting decision -- backgrounds it
JF: do we want to wait to hear from ARIA team before close issue? if say "yes, will take on" then close issue
MS: good p;oint
action-101: this is an attempt at disposition of HTML WG Issue 133: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
<trackbot> ACTION-101 - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA notes added
MS: update on media?
JF: trying very actively to whack
away at bugs tagged with media keyword to reduce overall
collection of bugs -- discussed and assigned to members of
sub-team -- half-a-dozen can be closed we have determined
... feeding info back to martin and cooper
... probably got 2 or 3 major outstanding issues need to address A.S.A.P. -- controlling timeline issue around time-shifting -- what to do when require more time for existing media resource?
... large issue
JS: shawn has expamples as to how to handle and Silvia pledged to review them
JF: another issue is where we stand with specific time-stamp format -- at point where did gap analysis and comparison for 2 competing specs --
JS: been some discussion on that
-- may be more tweaks to document, but overall takeaway is
"neither has what we need" -- more tightly defined gap analysis
may be needed
... back on the PFWG agenda
JF: have change proposal with regard to the @poster -- which i refer to as "first frame" -- started writing a change proposal hope to have done by weekend -- issue is what alt text and what does it refer to? discussion about meaning of word poster and applicability -- rename will help in terms of accuracy
MS: Rich, Canvas update?
RS: working on RTE over the
holiday break; also brought AISqaured into discussion (leading
screen mag on windows) -- FrankO said via email MS not
interested in dealing with RTE at this time
... have proposals for caret and FocusRing that need to be integrated into HTML5 -- need sub-team consensus to bring to TF
... asked devs to state position: address RTE for HTML5 or no -- can't force them to do it, but need consensus on how to move forward in any event
MS: puts into background until TF receives buy-in from implementors
RS: exposure for HTML5 based on
comments from TV community around this -- google working on IME
for Canvas -- going to happen
... gaping hole in HTML5 currently -- if can't do it, need to have chairs state not going to do and why
<JF> somebody alredy *has* done this in canvas - Bespin
GJR: think bespin is now "skylark"
RS: need to get so can do
FocusRing, caret tracking, sub-DOM that maps to a11y APIS
... may need to create a11y API for web that can be managed by UA -- interest from Mozilla and Microsoft -- need to hash out on monday's call -- frankO hasn't been able to attend meetings
... told hixie he needs to let subteam to develop what is needed -- even if in diff WG
... strategy for canvas: make directly accessible with sub-DOM; other alternative working on with Dave Singer using media queries to express preferences set by user in browser
MS: from HTML WG side, will need
to give chairs update on where Canvas is at
... after sub-team dsiscussions, need to bring info to HTML WG chairs -- need to tell them if want issue closed without prejudice, or can wait until "times-out" -- can wait until report back from subteams
... ARIA-mapping sub-team?
JS: want to defer to bring forward after next ARIA publication announcement -- makes tracking issue cleaner
MS: bug triage?
MR: met on tuesday -- we are down
to 7 or less bugs to process and apply a11ytf tag; reassigned a
few bugs; pretty much done with list Laura gave us
... waiting for more work to do arising from TF and WG meetings
MC: have bug-related deadline approaching -- 19 january 2011
JF: online resource that encapsulates where we stand?
JF: status, deadl;ines, relationship to issues -- Laura may already have this info collected -- need common resource for this info
MR: not aware of such a
... best resource is bug report laura sends every week
MS: no resource to track bugs
that haven't been escalated, but that is what Laura has been
... sounds like things are on track in subteams
MS: discussed with JS and MC -- have proposal
JS: not yet sent to list
<MichaelC> Face to face scheduling survey results
JS: propose 2 options -- friday saturday 1 option
MS: end of CSUN week in San Diego or near
MC: overlapping CSUN best for those who answered survey -- before CSUN has a lot of conflict -- partial overlap approach best -- tuesday and wednesday or friday and saturday (no presenations at CSUN on satrurday
RS: during CSUN could be problematic
JS: third possibility is don't overlap and go saturday and sunday
RS: have several presentations
slated for CSUN
... still up in air as to when presentations will be held
... hanging fire on scheduling other meetings -- meeting during CSUN is problemmatic -- need 2 whole days
MC: either at beginning or end - 1 day out of CSUN plus an extra day (friday/saturday)
RS: no presentations on friday at present
JF: saturday and sunday best for me
RS: me too
LW: could then only stay for saturday
JS: MS sponsoring so probably in same hotel
RS: need F2F to get alot of these issues involved --
MS: imortant to have Rich and his time
RS: CSUN schedule is screwed up right now -- don't know if have full schedule on friday
JF: going to look into conference scheduling next week, but not a garuntee
RS: may have to move presentations to saturday to clean up scheduling mess
JF: if we get to CSUN schedulers before reassign sessions, ask not to schedule any TF member attending CSUN for saturday so can do HTML A11y stuff
MC: least overlap is saturday
JF: if provide them with list of names, can feed to mike paciello so can consider when rescheduleing
JS: want JF to do that, and want saturday and sunday
MC: would lose David Singer by
switching -- unavailable from 19 march 2011 onwares
... few people we might looose -- Geoff Fried, Jon Gunderson,
... can request flexibility
RS: would like to get David Bolter at meetings
JS: saturday sunday seems best option
JF: with heavy lifting on
... if take care of most contentious issues on saturday, can mop up on sunday
RS: FrankO availability?
MC: didn't fill out form
MC: didn't fill out form
DB: david bolter will be at CSUN tuesday through thursday night
davidb, can you attend remotely on saturday or sunday
davidb, can you attend remotely on the weekend following CSUN?
<davidb> I'll have daughters in the same room but yeah
proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet on the Saturday and Sunday immediately following CSUN
proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)
proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet in face2face meetings on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)
RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet in face2face meetings on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)
MS: need to announce to TF -- cooper, can you send out announcement to list?
MS: next on agenda are topics
open for a while -- choose 1 or 2 of these?
... drag'n'drop, keyboard access, forms accessibility,
JS: like action on ISSUE-30 to
draft request to reconsider
... based on wiki and laura's research
<scribe> ACTION: Janina - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-20].
MS: one more thing about f2f -- want to see if Paul Cotton might be able to attend -- i will follow up on that
JS: great idea -- same time zone
MS: been regular on a11y TF calls, would be beneficial to have him at f2f
JS: remaining issues -- forms, keyboard access, drag'n'drop (currently without assignee)
GJR and LW will coordinate on forms
MS: drag'n'drop -- been spec
changes since last discussed in TF
... are they sufficient to address any of the TF bugs or questions, i don't know -- would be good to have somewone review them -- perhaps ask Gez to review spec changes to ascertain if address concerns raised in TF
JS: good starting point
... language changes versus spec changes -- going back to Gez to review changes seems most logical starting point to move on closing issue
MS: will follow up on that with
... going to review related bugs to see if still relate to open issue and whether OBE
JS: postpone discussion of reconsideration of Issue-30 until next week
MS: any other business?
RS: proposal for change to section on tables being used for presentational purposes
MS: went to chairs, right?
MS: response from Sam Ruby at
previous URI -- issue 130
... only change on HTML WG side is issue is reopened (had been closed without prejudice) so awaiting action from chairs
GJR: still have the @summary / summary as attribute or element
<MichaelC> Text alternatives survey
MC: 1 other new/continuing business -- text alternative survey is ready but not yet open
[MC reads survey text]
JF: only comment is all of these alternatives -- should @alt be mandatory or optional
MC: interested in providing text
alternatives -- one mechanism is @alt -- there are others being
... didn't understand this being "in case of the absence of alt"
plus 1 to add to intro
JF: [reads from issue statement]
MC: added verbiage to intro to
... propose keep survey open a week
JS: sounds reasonable
MC: deadline for http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201101-issue-31/ 20 january 2011
MS: other business?
JS: thanks to everybody for coming early -- especially U.S. west coasters
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: i/f2fg/f2f Succeeded: s/f2fg/f2f/ Succeeded: s/RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF will have a 48 hour Call for Consensus on acceptance of SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/ Succeeded: i/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's/RESOLUTION: Succeeded: s/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/ Succeeded: s/DB: can you attend remotely if on saturday or sunday/davidb, can you attend remotely on saturday or sunday/ Succeeded: i/MS: next on agenda are topics open for a while/TOPIC: Disposition of Long-Standing Agenda Items Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, Marco_Ranon, martin_kliehm, Léonie_Watson, Rich Present: Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina Michael_Cooper John_Foliot Mike Marco_Ranon martin_kliehm Léonie_Watson Rich Regrets: Laura_Carlson Denis_Boudreau Silvia_Pfieffer Kenny_Johar Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0127.html Found Date: 13 Jan 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: - aria caucus email gjr janina talk WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]