HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

13 Jan 2011


See also: IRC log


Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, Marco_Ranon, martin_kliehm, Léonie_Watson, Rich
Laura_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Silvia_Pfieffer, Kenny_Johar
Janina_Sajka, Mike_Smith


<MichaelC> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 13 January 2011

<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

<janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka & Mike_Smith

<janina> agenda: this

<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<scribe> scribenick: oedipus


JS: 2 hour meeting - 2 scribes
... hoped laura was going to attend -- wanted to clear up confusion over Issue 122


<trackbot> ISSUE-122 does not exist

JS: 122 (lady of shallot) top of agenda

<MichaelC> html-issue-122?


<inserted> f2f

GJR: above link is fulfillment of action item assigned at HTML WG f2f

JS: TF approved GJR"s proposal -- then found out laura had competing proposal -- go forward despite that -- lets take a look at her proposal -- need to come to closure on this

MC: want to compare change proposal from GJR and LauraC -- also older one from SteveF (Steve's is a null proposal)
... Laura & GJR put in change proposal after call for counter proposals to SteveF

<MichaelC> Laura's change proposal on issue-122

MC: Laura is "remove info about text alternatives"

GJR: my propsal is a refinement of LauraC's proposal

MC: LauraC suggesting that should be WCAG tecniques

JS: not far off mark

GJR: suggested verbiage change and pointed to Alt Techs and WCAG 2.0

<JF> +q

JS: 2 questions: what should document say, where should document live?
... propose move to approve GJR propsal as agreed-to at TPAC -- ask Laura to rescind proposal -- WCG needs to discuss how to handle normative advice on @alt text -- should it be in HTML area or in WCAG?

GJR: 2 not mutually exclusive -- tried to do pass-off to both

JS: want to perfect language

<JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/

JF: where does SteveF's Alt Techs factor into this mix?

MC: GJR references it, Laura doesn't

JS: same omnibus question -- Laura reacting to someting in consensus guidance on alt text from a year ago -- said all guidance should live in WAI space

JF: going to get pushback from larger group

MC: reason why Steve started alt techs document in HTML5 space

JS: more a policy question for W3C

JF: question is: where do we want definitive guidance to live?
... 3 options: inside HTML5 draft, in WCAG Techs or in SteveF's stand-alone draft of alt text techs
... all come from collective community in W3C, so we need to make up our minds as to where info should be

MC: agree -- want to exist somewhere rather than nowhere -- steveF's document is applicable to ANY language, so kinda odd that part of HTML5, but on other hand...

JS: still think this is a decision outside of our purview

JF: we need to provide subject matter expertise -- get everything out of HTML5 spec and point to SteveF's doc as current requirements from a11y community

plus 1

JS: trying to take 122 off of our plate in a useful way -- where should live going to take an administrative question -- multiple groups involved -- should be addressed by W3M

MC: if groups agree, could work out ourselves, but seems to be disagreement between TF and WG

JS: where lives separate issue from where it lives
... propose that GJR and Laura do not disagree in any substantive way
... need to get Laura to submit question of "where" this info should reside
... question in 122 is what should guidance say, not where it should live

GJR: answered question in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images

JS: not saying don't want to address where should live -- separate issue from what guidance should say -- decoupling the 2 will lead to positive momentum

MC: bring to whom? WAI CG? chairs' call for HTML5? judy?

JS: falls on facillitatators -- 1st step is explain to laura our discussion and decision to decouple what from where
... address to chairs and judy jointly -- topic for WAI CG i believe
... if WAI CG needs to have a position on where this type of info should reside -- traditionally, that has been in WAI space
... want to address issue comprehensively, not ad hoc or case-by-case

<scribe> ACTION: Janina - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-20].

Issue 80

JS: not clear what status of this is in TF -- resolved at TPAC and have a snag (competing proposal)

<Marco_Ranon> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80

<kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80

MC: proposal from Steve, null change proposal from hixie, and an older change proposal from hixie

<MichaelC> Change proposal from Steve

JS: asked Leonie to look at it

LW: steve said he'd help set up change proposal, then realized had already been written -- forwarded to list, but Laura said had been filed, so i am confused as to status

JS: is SteveF's proposal adequate? reflect conclusions of TPAC f2f meetings?

LW: think is ok

MC: hasn't been substantially changed since april 2010


JF: non-controversial -- saying @title not sufficient for a11y

LW: agree with JF

<MichaelC> Discussion of ISSUE-80 at TPAC 2010

MC: discussing issue 31 and 80 in context with each other -- relationship is affirmed multiple places
... hard to grok minutes from TPAC

JS: comfortable that SteveF's proposal reflects the majority opinion of TF

<JF> +1 to that idea

proposed RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203

GJR: objections?

LW: plus 1 -- succinct

JS: need WBS?

MC: probably should
... could do 24 hour CfC

JS: make it 48 hours

<inserted> RESOLUTION:

RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203

Issue 31 @alt

JS: change proposal to move forward?

<kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31

JS: Laura has proposal she believes covers this

<JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElementSurveyConformaceChoices

JF: Laura sent note to list citing wiki page -- dileneating change proposal choices at above URI from JF

MC: pretty helpful albeit gargantuan

JS: Laura very good at collating issues and proposals
... how to procede in TF on this?

JF: without looking at first table (what allowed and what isn't allowed) -- seems to me that what we want is the best solution
... seems to me that requirment set 2 meets the definition of sufficient in my mind


MC: analysis of what each change proposal does -- can survey characteristics and ask if aria-labelledby should be used, etc. -- get yes and nos to match up to column on Laura's table

JF: or the column that doesn't exist
... sounds like right way forward

requirement set 2: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126

JF: prepared to be flexible on @alt as long as something in its place that works today
... aria-labelledby would be acceptable if no @alt

MC: also favor that approach

plus 1

JS: objections to surveying to resolve this issue?

[no objections logged]

JS: WBS is the way forward for this

MC: can prepare survey with 6 yes or no questions
... will try and get survey ready in real-time during call when not involved in topics

JS: objectoins?

[none logged]

Issue 133 - Modal Attribute

JS: orphaned with Everett's withdrawl -- does not currently have an owner

<Marco_Ranon> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133

JS: any volunteers?

GJR: took tablist from everett -- someone else should take this up


JF: question becomes: "what kind of special behavior (if any) are we expecting from the modal thing?

JS: let's define "modal"

GJR: note that hixie marked this as Rationale: Concurred with reporter's comments, but it's still too early.

JF: would not the behavior we talked about here be covered by ARIA live regions? in GUI sense, modal is like a dialog box (such as pop-up) that takes specific focus -- usually modal dialog requires interaction from user before can procede with larger contextual thing dealing with

JS: live region in same screen relating to changes in viewport

LW: live region is just a portion of primary page that is updated -- modal is something ancilliary to primary page (pop-up)
... modal overlaid on top of it

JF: Evertt cites wikipedia def of "modal" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window
... use javascript alert as example -- when presented on screen is that sufficient for AT to know that an alert is present -- add aria live region or is existence of alert enough?
... do we really need a modal attribute

MR: modal dialog in HTML page is something that when tabbing around, can get into that portion of page -- haven't seen good implementations of that -- live box as go through controls -- javascript examples: can't do much with javascript and interactivity

JS: hixie says "this is too soon"

GJR: no no guidance
... state of bug is "CLOSED LATER" no indication of where can be

JF: quotes from hixie about waiting to add -- seems weak

JS: MikeSmith, comments? advice? ask ian for more specificity on when?

<JF> when is later?

MS: not going to be productive -- don't think can pin editor down on this -- marked as "CLOSED LATER" -- "Later" state in bugzilla only way to track bugs like this that are not WONTFIX, but open to discussion later

JF: when is leter?

JS: is later HTML5.next?

MS: yes, or can be escalated

<JF> +q

MS: nothing will happen unless someone takes ownership of this and pushes to get escalated
... decision policy from HTML WG side, bug in "correct" state -- comments can still be added to bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645

JF: concerned about HTML5.next because no timeline or commitment to doing a revision
... could this be addressed by ARIA? talk of ARIA 1.1 closer than HTML5 -- would moving to ARIA solve problem statement with aria-role="modal"

<kliehm> There's aria-role="dialog"

JF: marco mentioned problems with something like whitebox -- if used "dialog" role or newly minted "modal" role suffice?

JS: something we run into regardless of host language, so appropriate to use ARIA to solve -- host language independent

MR: if have ARIA role "modal" can use DIV element in HTML5 and AT would be able to put focus in whatever is inside modal DIV -- solve problem by retaining tabindex for element for which is assigned; not quite live region, but interactive without need of javascript
... if want to keep focus inside, currently need to use javascript to place focus and breaks tabindex order -- if aria-modal can do that solves problem

JS: should we make a request of the ARIA caucus?

JF: yes

MR: yes

JS: objections?

[no objections logged]

RESOLUTION: ask ARIA Caucus to consider a modal attribute for ARIA to address http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645

JF: raised resolution to ask aria caucus to look at this bug -- is there an issue associated with it and how to dispose?


JF: move whole problem statement to ARIA

<scribe> ACTION: GJR - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2011-01-20].

MS: can close without prejudice so can be reoponed later based on new info
... remove from current set of issues awaiting decision -- backgrounds it

JF: do we want to wait to hear from ARIA team before close issue? if say "yes, will take on" then close issue

MS: good p;oint

action-101: this is an attempt at disposition of HTML WG Issue 133: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133

<trackbot> ACTION-101 - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA notes added

Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

Sub-Team Reports

MS: update on media?

JF: trying very actively to whack away at bugs tagged with media keyword to reduce overall collection of bugs -- discussed and assigned to members of sub-team -- half-a-dozen can be closed we have determined because OBE
... feeding info back to martin and cooper
... probably got 2 or 3 major outstanding issues need to address A.S.A.P. -- controlling timeline issue around time-shifting -- what to do when require more time for existing media resource?
... large issue

JS: shawn has expamples as to how to handle and Silvia pledged to review them

JF: another issue is where we stand with specific time-stamp format -- at point where did gap analysis and comparison for 2 competing specs --

JS: been some discussion on that -- may be more tweaks to document, but overall takeaway is "neither has what we need" -- more tightly defined gap analysis may be needed
... back on the PFWG agenda

JF: have change proposal with regard to the @poster -- which i refer to as "first frame" -- started writing a change proposal hope to have done by weekend -- issue is what alt text and what does it refer to? discussion about meaning of word poster and applicability -- rename will help in terms of accuracy

MS: Rich, Canvas update?

RS: working on RTE over the holiday break; also brought AISqaured into discussion (leading screen mag on windows) -- FrankO said via email MS not interested in dealing with RTE at this time
... have proposals for caret and FocusRing that need to be integrated into HTML5 -- need sub-team consensus to bring to TF
... asked devs to state position: address RTE for HTML5 or no -- can't force them to do it, but need consensus on how to move forward in any event

MS: puts into background until TF receives buy-in from implementors

RS: exposure for HTML5 based on comments from TV community around this -- google working on IME for Canvas -- going to happen
... gaping hole in HTML5 currently -- if can't do it, need to have chairs state not going to do and why

<JF> somebody alredy *has* done this in canvas - Bespin

GJR: think bespin is now "skylark"

RS: need to get so can do FocusRing, caret tracking, sub-DOM that maps to a11y APIS
... may need to create a11y API for web that can be managed by UA -- interest from Mozilla and Microsoft -- need to hash out on monday's call -- frankO hasn't been able to attend meetings
... told hixie he needs to let subteam to develop what is needed -- even if in diff WG
... strategy for canvas: make directly accessible with sub-DOM; other alternative working on with Dave Singer using media queries to express preferences set by user in browser

MS: from HTML WG side, will need to give chairs update on where Canvas is at
... after sub-team dsiscussions, need to bring info to HTML WG chairs -- need to tell them if want issue closed without prejudice, or can wait until "times-out" -- can wait until report back from subteams
... ARIA-mapping sub-team?

JS: want to defer to bring forward after next ARIA publication announcement -- makes tracking issue cleaner

MS: bug triage?

MR: met on tuesday -- we are down to 7 or less bugs to process and apply a11ytf tag; reassigned a few bugs; pretty much done with list Laura gave us
... waiting for more work to do arising from TF and WG meetings

MC: have bug-related deadline approaching -- 19 january 2011

JF: online resource that encapsulates where we stand?

JS: timeline?

JF: status, deadl;ines, relationship to issues -- Laura may already have this info collected -- need common resource for this info

MR: not aware of such a resource
... best resource is bug report laura sends every week

MS: no resource to track bugs that haven't been escalated, but that is what Laura has been maintaining
... sounds like things are on track in subteams

Face2Face meeting First Quarter of 2011

MS: discussed with JS and MC -- have proposal

JS: not yet sent to list

<MichaelC> Face to face scheduling survey results

JS: propose 2 options -- friday saturday 1 option

MS: end of CSUN week in San Diego or near

MC: overlapping CSUN best for those who answered survey -- before CSUN has a lot of conflict -- partial overlap approach best -- tuesday and wednesday or friday and saturday (no presenations at CSUN on satrurday

RS: during CSUN could be problematic

JS: third possibility is don't overlap and go saturday and sunday

RS: have several presentations slated for CSUN
... still up in air as to when presentations will be held
... hanging fire on scheduling other meetings -- meeting during CSUN is problemmatic -- need 2 whole days

MC: either at beginning or end - 1 day out of CSUN plus an extra day (friday/saturday)

RS: no presentations on friday at present

JF: saturday and sunday best for me

RS: me too

LW: could then only stay for saturday

JS: MS sponsoring so probably in same hotel

RS: need F2F to get alot of these issues involved --

MS: imortant to have Rich and his time

RS: CSUN schedule is screwed up right now -- don't know if have full schedule on friday

JF: going to look into conference scheduling next week, but not a garuntee

RS: may have to move presentations to saturday to clean up scheduling mess

JF: if we get to CSUN schedulers before reassign sessions, ask not to schedule any TF member attending CSUN for saturday so can do HTML A11y stuff

MC: least overlap is saturday

JF: if provide them with list of names, can feed to mike paciello so can consider when rescheduleing

JS: want JF to do that, and want saturday and sunday

MC: would lose David Singer by switching -- unavailable from 19 march 2011 onwares
... few people we might looose -- Geoff Fried, Jon Gunderson,
... can request flexibility

RS: would like to get David Bolter at meetings

JS: saturday sunday seems best option

JF: with heavy lifting on saturday
... if take care of most contentious issues on saturday, can mop up on sunday

RS: FrankO availability?

MC: didn't fill out form

RS: SteveF?

MC: didn't fill out form

DB: david bolter will be at CSUN tuesday through thursday night

davidb, can you attend remotely on saturday or sunday

davidb, can you attend remotely on the weekend following CSUN?

<davidb> I'll have daughters in the same room but yeah

thanks, david

<davidb> np

proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet on the Saturday and Sunday immediately following CSUN

proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)

proposed RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet in face2face meetings on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)

RESOLUTION: HTML TF will meet in face2face meetings on the Saturday and Sunday (january 19th and 20th)

MS: need to announce to TF -- cooper, can you send out announcement to list?

MC: sure

Disposition of Long-Standing Agenda Items

MS: next on agenda are topics open for a while -- choose 1 or 2 of these?
... drag'n'drop, keyboard access, forms accessibility,

JS: like action on ISSUE-30 to draft request to reconsider
... based on wiki and laura's research

<scribe> ACTION: Janina - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [on Janina Sajka - due 2011-01-20].

MS: one more thing about f2f -- want to see if Paul Cotton might be able to attend -- i will follow up on that

JS: great idea -- same time zone

MS: been regular on a11y TF calls, would be beneficial to have him at f2f

JS: remaining issues -- forms, keyboard access, drag'n'drop (currently without assignee)

GJR and LW will coordinate on forms

MS: drag'n'drop -- been spec changes since last discussed in TF
... are they sufficient to address any of the TF bugs or questions, i don't know -- would be good to have somewone review them -- perhaps ask Gez to review spec changes to ascertain if address concerns raised in TF

JS: good starting point
... language changes versus spec changes -- going back to Gez to review changes seems most logical starting point to move on closing issue

MS: will follow up on that with Gez
... going to review related bugs to see if still relate to open issue and whether OBE

JS: postpone discussion of reconsideration of Issue-30 until next week

MS: any other business?


RS: proposal for change to section on tables being used for presentational purposes

MS: went to chairs, right?

<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Dec/thread.html#msg132

MS: response from Sam Ruby at previous URI -- issue 130
... only change on HTML WG side is issue is reopened (had been closed without prejudice) so awaiting action from chairs

<MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-130

GJR: still have the @summary / summary as attribute or element

<MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-032


<MichaelC> Text alternatives survey

MC: 1 other new/continuing business -- text alternative survey is ready but not yet open

[MC reads survey text]

JF: only comment is all of these alternatives -- should @alt be mandatory or optional

MC: interested in providing text alternatives -- one mechanism is @alt -- there are others being considered
... didn't understand this being "in case of the absence of alt"

plus 1 to add to intro

JF: [reads from issue statement]

MC: added verbiage to intro to survey
... propose keep survey open a week

JS: sounds reasonable

MC: deadline for http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201101-issue-31/ 20 january 2011

MS: other business?

JS: thanks to everybody for coming early -- especially U.S. west coasters


Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: GJR - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Janina - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Janina - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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Succeeded: i/f2fg/f2f
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Succeeded: s/RESOLUTION: HTML5 A11y TF will have a 48 hour Call for Consensus on acceptance of SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/HTML5 A11y TF accepts SteveF's change proposal for HTML Issue-80 on use of @title/
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Succeeded: i/MS: next on agenda are topics open for a while/TOPIC: Disposition of Long-Standing Agenda Items
Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Mike, Marco_Ranon, martin_kliehm, Léonie_Watson, Rich
Present: Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina Michael_Cooper John_Foliot Mike Marco_Ranon martin_kliehm Léonie_Watson Rich
Regrets: Laura_Carlson Denis_Boudreau Silvia_Pfieffer Kenny_Johar
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0127.html
Found Date: 13 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: - aria caucus email gjr janina talk

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