See also: IRC log
<hhalpin> if anyone has suggestions for the agenda, I'm making one up now
<hhalpin> but we'll keep it informal
<p2501> the conference it did was here?
<bear> Mike Tayrlo
<bear> Mike Taylor
<p2501> was will be here?
<hhalpin> \me Zakim, aabb is XX
<hhalpin> p2501 - the telecon has just started
<p2501> but is should be here, is no so nice support skype when it isn free
<hhalpin> p2501 - you can dial in using whatever voIP software you have, free or not, or just using a mobile phone
<hhalpin> or you can just pay attention in IRC, I'll try to monitor both
<p2501> ok thanks
<p2501> i will save the logs
<hhalpin> the logs are also saved automatically and given a URI
<p2501> ok nice
<hhalpin> \me Markus?
<ward> 503 == Ward Cunningham
<bblfish> I think aad is me
<bblfish> oops, I had turned off sound not muted myself
<bblfish> now I can hear without being heard
<DKA> Scribe: Dan
<hhalpin> scribe: DKA
<scribe> ScribeNick: DKA
<hhalpin> scribenick: DKA
Dan: Somebody is always designated the scribe.
Harry: Describing the magic of
the Zakim bridge.
... teleconferences can often run weekly but we decided monthly would be better.
... usually there is a scribe so notes can be taken in IRC.
... [not scribing this bit]
<hhalpin> 1. Process
Harry: What W3C provides is 1) a process of making a web standard
Harry: because social web is more experimental, we are going to do something a bit different than regular w3c process.
<evan> hhalpin: I'm in, muted
<hhalpin> 2. Tools
Harry: we want people to be able to explore more. We have an incubator group (which will be transfered into a community group).
<hhalpin> The W3C list-servs, and every message archived own URL
<hhalpin> svn, cvs, git
Harry: W3C also provides some tools. In particular, listservers (with archives), wikis, blogs, web space, svn, teleconferencing facilities...
<hhalpin> Zakim is teleconference
<hhalpin> "chair" not the leader
<hhalpin> the chair's purpose to keep on schedule
Harry: Zakim is the IRC bot. If you want to say something, you can use q+, q-, etc ... to get ont he "speaker queue". In general the chair is not the leader, but to keep the group on schedule, make sure everyone has their voices heard.
Harry: Another IRC bot called RRS agent - transcribes the meeting and transforms it into html minutes.
<Zakim> DKA, you wanted to mention issues and actions tracking
Dan: agents and tracking
<scribe> ACTION: Dan to explain issues and actions on the telecon. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html#action01]
<hhalpin> So now you can just look at that URI
<hhalpin> \invite trackbot
<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
<trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to setup trackbot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
<hhalpin> basically, bugzilla for standards
<evan> Are these available in the time between telecons?
<hhalpin> Yes Evan, they are, except trackbot, which has to be setup
Dan: I suggest using trackbot to track issues and actions...
Evan: One question is about canonical channels for conversations. Is it true that if it's not on the mailing list (or some other channel) it's ignored, etc...?
Harry: Typically, that's how it works - there's a single listserv. On federated social web that's not the case. Things are happing on different channels...
<hhalpin> Web URI
Harry: we should have that
discussion about what the default channel of conversation
... for the time being, it would be great if people could list channels we should monitor.
<evan> Good idea
<hhalpin> Dan: we're going to not be strict with process, and we're not going to have the issue of it's not on the mailing-list it doesn't exist"
Harry: Feel free to ask any questions on w3c...
<brad> question: any idea on how soon this will become a community group?
Harry: w3c's main value add is patents - w3c has a patent policy. It doesn't say that there are no patents. It says that if there are patents, you cannot ask for royalties [you give an implicit royalty-free license to these patents, unless you specifically exclude.]
<eschnou> i'm in, on mute, sorry for being late, had to debug my network :-)
<hhalpin> note that we are not going to enforce w3c patent policy on this group
<hhalpin> unless the group decides they want to.
Evan: The description of the federated social web group that we have is to recommend standards moving forward. Are there previous examples in w3c we could look to - efforts about "cherrypicking" other standards?
Harry: EG for XML schema
languages - there have been various proposals from different
communities. Same thing is going on for video right now -
finding an appropriate video codec for html5.
... there's not a set process for it.
... w3c could take anything as a starting point...
<Zakim> DKA, you wanted to mention mobile web best practices as somewhat of a template.
Harry: we are working with OWF to make sure that specs that have gone through OWF process can be "referenced".
<hhalpin> the general idea that we hope is that OWF-licensed software can easily get a W3C RFF, and Rosen etc. is working with W3C PSIG and our lawyer on this.
<hhalpin> DKA: We've done similar work in the mobile web best-practiced
Brad: i was wondering - when will this become a community group?
Harry: the community group process will allow individuals to participate as individuals, be more light-weight. the schedule for this process being in place will be end of Q1 2011. Then we'll switch. Until then we will be an incubator group with an open door policy.
<hhalpin> end of Q1 2011
<hhalpin> that's like March or April...
<evan> Can we have variable times?
<evan> There were questions from far-east participants
<evan> And Australians
Dan: I think we need to decide a teleconference time.
<eschnou> +1 for variable time, so different TZ can join from time to time...
<hhalpin> Ben that did Elgg?
<evan> I don't see him
<bman> which ben?
+1 to an earlier time.
<bman> im ben werd?
<bman> not me
<hhalpin> bman = ben who worked on elgg
<evan> If we target three timezone zones... like Europe, East Asia, and the Americas
<bblfish> Ben Werdmuller von Elgg
<bman> 2 bens from elgg
+1 to a variable time as well.
<evan> We could rotate it
<brad> 4:00 am too early
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to find an earlier time [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
<evan> Everyone's going to get a crappy time some time
<evan> Spread the pain of living on a round globe
<bman> im the easy one about time
<brad> +1 evan
Dan: If we do a teleconference a month and rotate the time, I think that's a good compromise.
Harry: Over to Evan
Evan: Thanks - I've been thinking
about "where are we" on the FSW...
... consumer trends, business trends...
<bman> fyi ben werd does not actively work on elgg anyway
Evan: there are continuing pressures to see more federation between these systems.
<hhalpin> @bman, are you working on elgg actively?
Evan: 2010 was a big year from the FSW. We've seen a move away from theoretical towards practical.
<bman> its in a transitional period as elgg is moving to a foundation
<hhalpin> +1, excellent. Maybe we should do a go around on the "state of play" of various federated social web codebases after Evan...
Evan: where we are right now - we have a few candidate sets of protocols. Technology areas that are moving into the distributed social web space.
<bman> brettproffitt is the head of the project but just lost backing of elgg.com due to being sold
Evan: one is the "ostatus" stack.
Which is a stack based on pubsubhubub, activitystreams, salmon
... work well together but lack some features around privacy.
... there are others. E.g. OneSocialWeb that depends on activity streams plus XMPP.
... Fredica, Appleseed, Diaspora - all have done some work in this area.
<bman> but caedes and me are the only ones working with federated elgg as far as i know atm
Evan: one of the delicate balances we have to do is not to stomp on creativity in this area.
Evan: what we can do is to encourage these processes.
<bear> agree, allows for best implementations to happen
Evan: we can encourage people who are making these systems to hold up their protocols and software to meta-standards and meta-tests.
<bman> im fine with more standards because ostatus wont fit all use cases
Evan: In 2010 at the federated
social web summit, we defined SWAT0 test - proposed by David
... it was a simple test use case that insisted that people be on different implementations / code-bases.
... one of the things we can do as a group is to first highlight these kind of tests and help implementers meet these tests and encourage them to do so....
... secondly to develop further tests.
... SWAT0 is the first one. We should develop SWAT1, SWAT2, and so on...
... what further functionality should we expect out of the federated social web?
... this is an exciting time - social web is big and important. The understanding that there are lots of implementations and networks that aren't going away
+1 to a focus on interop
<joeyguerra> hey guys. sorry, i'm just joining.
<bblfish1> +1 for me too on interop
<hhalpin> \me np joey, feel free to dial in if you can
<eschnou> @evan do you have any statistics to share on the spread of ostatus today ? E.g. how many "nodes" ?
scribe: As a group, we can say "this is real" - that this is a pragmatic thing. We can add a lot to making these systems valuable.
<hhalpin> there's the numbers joey
<hhalpin> @eschnou, you can put yourself on the "queue" by just typing q+ into IRC
<eschnou> @hhalpin thanks :-)
<joeyguerra> i'm on the call now.
<joeyguerra> ah. yeah.
<hhalpin> yes, I can hear you
Dan: Just supporting your remarks on interop.
<joeyguerra> i guess swat1 is the focus to reach interop?
Dan: in OSW we are prioritizing interop in our development timeline.
<bblfish1> don't forget the foaf and WebID crowd
<joeyguerra> we haven't started focusing on it, but i guess we will if there's going to be activity/focus on it by others.
Laurent: I wanted to say - yes, it's exciting for federated social web, but in terms of usage, what do we have? What is the status of federation of ostatus? How many nodes, how many people, etc...?
Evan: On Ostatus - because it's an agglomeration of other protocols, it's possible to partially enable it. Google buzz is an example - they have implemented pubsubhubub so I can follow them for status net but they can't follow me back...
<bblfish> status net uses foaf
<joeyguerra> is there a problem getting ssl certs to implement foaf?
<bman> foaf xmpp and ostatus are all being used by me
<joeyguerra> foaf with ssl?
Evan: on Status.net for implementation - the stack is defined as what status.net implements - for status.net we have somewhere larger than 40,000 site running on our cloud service - range in size from single-user to identi.ca - so 350,000 users roughly.
<joeyguerra> on a dedicated server?
<joeyguerra> or shared hosting account?
Evan: we have about 10 to 15k other status.net sites outside of the share hosting.
<joeyguerra> do they all of ssl?
<bman> the caedes elgg implementation requires ssl
<bblfish> no status net does not yet use foaf with ssl. But its not a lot of work to enable it. And it could use the foaf a lot more creatively and usefully. But it does publish foaf, one of the big foaf publishers
Evan: but Ostatus isn't the clear winner. I don't think that numbers today indicate that. but we're seeing a lot of users.
<bblfish> the reason things are slow to happen is that it takes the network effect
Laurent: Users are using the technology but are they using the federation concept? Are they federating with other notes? Do people understand the concept of federation? With swat0 we could make a distributed twitter. The world is ready to move to a decentralized twitter but it's not happening. WHat do we need to do which is not technology oriented to make this happen?
<bblfish> which is something that is slow to develop.
<bblfish> true: combinging networks is a good way of putting things
Evan: I'd love to address that.
We should not frame things in a negative way though - but in a
positive way - let's connect networks that already exist.
... there are social networks outside of the biggest social networks. For those, how should we connect them?
<bblfish> combining networks is a good way to get the momentum in order to allow decentralised networks to exist.
scribe: I look more to the enterprise use cases than to the [consumer] use cases.
Harry: That's why I thought there
might be a fit between the w3c and the federated social web. We
can't tell people "you have to implement my software" - but we
can work on standards and make different code bases
interoperate. including test cases.
... in w3c - most of our work has been based in browsers - and we've been excited by work on social agents in the browsers. We'd like to support it more.
<SimonTennantBuddy> where in Europe?
Evan: One goal - a new federated social web gathering of some kind. We have an offer of space and time in Europe [Berlin] in early June.
<eschnou> what about Fosdem next month ? Anyone around for some meeting/hackfest/interop ?
<hhalpin> There has been an offer from some non-profit foundation (Herman Boell?) to host another Federated Social Web summit?
<hhalpin> And yes, outreach and hacking at FOSDEM is also another great idea...
<SimonTennantBuddy> I will be at FOSDEM and be presenting and running a hacking workshop there. Happy to arrange.
Evan: this would be a great opportunity to bring people together. Our previous federated social web summit was in portland - a bit difficult. We have an opportunity to make this a bigger deal. Finally we can user this as a way to reach out to people who haven't been active before.
<joeyguerra> it would be great to "broadcast" that conference via the federated web.
<joeyguerra> especially as a "case study".
Evan: our event before - you had to be working on federated social web technologies to attend. That was successful, but was not [as open].
<joeyguerra> of what could be done.
<bman> im too far away and unfunded for any travel
<joeyguerra> yeah, me too.
Evan: one thing we need to work on in the immediate term : nailing down the time, the format, and the invite list.
<joeyguerra> but if it was "broadcasted" with an adhoc federated network, i could participate.
<bman> indeed as could i
<hhalpin> yes we should definitely broadcast it
Evan: Next goal : we should work on defining what the next SWAT tests should be. Should they be around specific use cases - photo sharing, video sharing, events, etc...
<hhalpin> and we could ask to see if there would be some sort of travel grants as well if we can find the funding...
<bblfish> cool for privacy
Evan: another idea - topological ways to look at the tests. Privacy is an important issue. We'd like to challenge participants to come up with implementations [that support privacy].
<joeyguerra> yeah, privacy seems important.
<hhalpin> so discuss for a week a number of use-cases over the list.
Evan: should we set some goals to make a decision by our next telecon [for swat 1]? Similar for making decisions for the get-together.
<bblfish> sounds good
<joeyguerra> but implementing a swatx test seems more important.
<evan> I'd like to move wholesale the FSW google group and FSW wiki to W3c systems
<bblfish> is the mailing list working now, btw?
Brad: interaction between the different projects - one important thing would be to invite more of the groups that are working on distributed projects. If this looks like the main central place where projects will be working with eachother, we could do more with bringing in more projects.
<bblfish> not sure if I am on it yet
<joeyguerra> does anyone have a central site to collaborate?
Harry: One thing w3c does offer, if people want this - if a test suite can be specified in code, w3c has tools that could run the tests, record results, etc...
<joeyguerra> who's driving moving the FSW group to w3c?
<bman> brad i thought
Harry: second thing - do we want
to move the current wiki and listserv over to w3c wiki and
... w3c can run media wiki.
<caedes> do other people think it would be possible to setup a federated group (i was thinking about ostatus) for collaboration?
Harry: if people are ok with
that, I could make it happen.
... or we could keep going with the google group and current wiki.
<bman> rather not use google
<joeyguerra> what's the pros and cons?
I suggest making a strawpoll on each issue separately - list, wiki, etc...
<hhalpin> Question: Are we OK moving to a W3C list?
(you can also say +0)
+1 to moving mailing list.
<hellekin> hi there
<eschnou> Are the archives easy to search by external people ?
<SimonTennantBuddy> can we make sure the archives to the list are public please.
<bman> is irc being logged caedes?
<eschnou> then +1 for me as well
<hhalpin> Move Wiki over?
<brad> i think important to make joining and participating as open as possible
+0 to wiki
<caedes> bman: i didn't configure the channel
<evan> we can even redirect it
<evan> so it's transparent
<hhalpin> we'll set-up redirects
+0.5 not allowed
<bman> anyone know where irc is being logged to?
<evan> hhalpin: can we set these as actions TBD before next meeting?
<hhalpin> @bman: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.htm
<evan> to be done
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to work with evan to migrate list and wiki over [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
<hhalpin> @bman http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-federated-minutes.html
ACTION on Harry to set up trackbot.
<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
<bman> thanks much
<joeyguerra> thanks for organizing it.
<joeyguerra> i look forward to contributing.
<joeyguerra> gotta go. cya'll next time.
<eschnou> @evan do groups support federation, or is it SWAT27 :-)
<evan> eschnou: yes
Evan: my only question on dogfooding on FSW - there is no one FSW today - we have different camps. I'm happy to set up a group on oststus (on status.net) as needed but my only concern is for those folks working on other protocols...
<hhalpin> +1 setting up a statusnet group for this
<eschnou> @evan nice ! will have to try that one.
<hhalpin> but I could reasonably see there might be objections
<bear> can an ostatus test group be setup to allow people to start trying to gateway the different implementations?
<bblfish> It's a bit early to decide on a federated technology, though it can be good to try many things out.
<bman> i think thats a bad ideal, as we want FSW to be more than just ostatus.
<SimonTennantBuddy> interop should be seperated between protocol and transport (http, xmpp, carrier pidgeon)
<evan> could we do it on lots?
<bman> i agree
+q to what Simon said.
<bman> no reason i couldnt read/write to ostatus from xmpp
<hhalpin> scribenick: hhalpin
<bman> thanks DKA
it would be great to populate the wiki more
with more info on what the actual different stacks are...
bblfish: We should work on interoperability first and foremost
<bblfish> that was bblfish from Berlin
<SimonTennantBuddy> has anyone questioned wheter this is possible?
<joeyguerra> i think interoping would require implementing a specfic protocol, in essence picking one.
evan: not sure if interop between protocols is a reasonable goal, instead we want interop between systems
<bman> i implement more than one at duuit and its a pain for maint
evan: it's not always good to have a single protocol overwhelm
<bblfish> I agree. ideally we should have no protocol to write
<joeyguerra> yeah. maintenance is pain, totally agree.
evan: so lets separate protocol from data-structure
<bblfish> we should all be able to do this over http :-)
<bman> bbl agreed
<bman> hhalpin agreed
<eschnou> I agree, separate protocol but trying to use same data structures
<joeyguerra> what do ya'll want to use for data structure?
<joeyguerra> does ostatus define a data structure?
<bblfish> yes, sounds like a good e-mail list idea
<SimonTennantBuddy> +1 for email
evan: we have quite a bit to
... moving systems
... discussing next test-cases
<bblfish> There is the HAR in Berlin btw
<bman> as long as its broadcast +1
first week in berlin for another federated social web?
<joeyguerra> i still have to imlement swat0 in my project.
<bman> cant go in person
<bblfish> that's the big hacker conference
when is HAR?
<SimonTennantBuddy> also CCC camp in Berlin in summer.
<bblfish> 11-14 August I think
<bman> no objections
<ward> have dropped off audio, will read typescript, bye all
<eschnou> may just be too close from OSCON ?
<joeyguerra> yeah. i can't be there in person. but i'd love to implement SOME form of federation to receive "tweets" from it in my system.
<bman> thanks alot everyone, good progress
<eschnou> Thanks indeed ! Cheers !
<bman> im still updating ppl upstream
<bblfish> that's for the Berlin camp
<bblfish> for people who like hacking, testing security protocols, learning about flaws in SSL etc
<bman> i would love to go
<bman> but there is 0$ funding elgg atm
<bblfish> for example this talk was an eye opener for me at the cccc in December http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6xsv4azzpc
<bblfish> bman, where are you located?
<bman> i live in omaha, nebraska, usa
<bman> currently im in arkansas tho
<bblfish> ah ok, USA…. yep, that's a bit of a distance
<bman> cant walk if i tried
<bman> i like that irc bot
<bman> pretty neat
<bman> very cool indeed
And hopefully we can eventually integrate activity streams and sort of stuff into this IRC bot
but you can read all about it
its quite sophisticated for an irc bot
<caedes> bman: do you have some elgg instance with ostatus support?
<bman> we did the same types of things in our bots until the last few months when we abandonded irc for xmpp muc
<bman> caedes i have a version of duuit.com in testing
<bman> nothing live yet
yes we've discussed migrating to xmpp, and the bots too
<bman> hhalpin, its not a big deal with a irc gateway as i have done
whats your email bman?
we are looking at these sort of migrations over the next few months
<bman> email@example.com or firstname.lastname@example.org
cool, ok, we'll get in touch, what gateway did you end up using?
<bman> module for our xmpp (ejabber) server that we modified
<bman> ejabber module works out of the box but its not the best
<bear> let me know if you need xmpp help - i'm on the xmpp board and can find resources
<bman> confuses alot of irc users
great, we definitely want IRC/XMPP interop for W3C telecons
<bman> i agree
<bman> im slowly phasing myself away from irc as much as possible
but we can't abandon IRC lots of w3c folks use it of course, but a gateway would be perfect
<bman> thats what i did to get people off of it
<bman> i could gateway from my xmpp to any irc server
<bman> so i could gateway this without problem
<bman> caedes i couldnt use your implementation directly as it was based on a fork of elgg 1.7 and my current tree is a fork from 1.8 elgg
<caedes> ok, are you working on something then?
<caedes> we're aiming to migrate to 1.8 soon, but we're not in a hurry
<bman> yes but i got delayed a while due to hardware issues
<bman> elgg is so up in the air atm
<bman> 1.8 should have been done long ago but with the funding gone now there is no telling when it will be "done"
<bman> as far as i know there is only 2 sites using 1.8 based trees
<caedes> maybe time for a freeze then :)
<bman> elgg.com and duuit.com
<bman> brett is no longer being paid
<caedes> ok.. maybe another strategy would be in order then
<bman> let them have time to get the elgg foundation up and running but ill keep working on the code in the meantime
<bman> i would love to work with you on it
<caedes> thing is 1.8 shouldnt delay a lot more
<bman> i agree no point in 7 dot releases of 1.7
<hellekin> bman: are you committing to the Elgg tree?
<caedes> maybe you can organize some kind of irc elgg briefing with brett and cash and other commiters
<hellekin> yes, they're a bit sparse on IRC
<bman> yes but i am maintaining a fork that is not quite the same as mine is xmpp based as well as standard elgg
<caedes> xmpp based?
<bman> cash doesnt use irc and brett only used it when he was paid
<bman> but im sure i could get them together
<hellekin> irc / xmpp / anywhere chat
<bman> xmpp backend as well, posting from/to xmpp etc
<caedes> with ejabberd?
<caedes> what do you mean by xmpp backend?
<bman> i was working on federating via xmpp before you ever started on ostatus
<bman> logins, posting etc
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