Internationalization Core Teleconference

05 Jan 2011


See also: IRC log


Addison Phillips
Addison Phillips


<scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips

<scribe> ScribeNick: aphillip

Minutes and Agenda review

Action Items

Check on HTML5 language tag validator and send any comments

need to send

Write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus

write to public-i18n-bidi@

have feedback

trackbot, close ACTION-10

<trackbot> ACTION-10 Write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus closed

reopened bug and made comment

Info Share

Bidi status

discussing bug 10828

whethere <br> should be a paragraph separator

aharon: when reopened bug didn't say what we wanted; hoping hixie will ask what we want done or have an opinion
... in response on public-i18n-bidi
... got replies from Martin and Asmus
... bring it to the editor's attention was the basic reply


aharon: intention of email was...
... all of the bugs are in a reasonable status to me
... have reached end of line for each of these
... aim in dividing into groups was to ensure that WG opinion could be applied in cases where consensus is in question
... my groupings were "100% satisfied", "rejected but solid reasoning" (okay to close, but discuss), and "middle ground" (accepted with significant change)
... don't expect to open many of these

David: on "middle ground" ones, the solution proposed doesn't quite match the "ideal solution"?

aharon: might be less than ideal, but at least significant difference

David: if they go ahead, will there be compatibility problems with doing things correct way?

Bug 10807<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10807>

Proposes new ubi=on|off|”” attribute, mapping to unicode-bidi:isolate for ubi=on|””.

aharon: CSS3 has new bidi attribute "isolate", we proposed exposing in HTML as ubi
... instead they created element <bdi>
... like the name change
... but it's harder to use as an element than as an attribute
... but they think it represents an fundamental entity (an "isolated" somehting or other)
... but I think it is less easy to use
... they also changed the default stylesheet
... so that the <outlook> element also has "bidi:isolate"
... a little uncomfortable about that
... should we ask to get rid of that?
... <output> inconsistent?
... once it has that property, more difficult to override
... and usually used for numbers, which don't generally need this

addison: should be separate comment/bug? maybe save for last call?

<scribe> chair: any objection to leaving 10807 alone?

Bug 10808<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10808>

Proposes new “auto” value for the dir attribute, and a new attribute, autodirmethod=first-strong|any-rtl|plaintext. Elements with dir=auto to be isolated by default (via separately-proposed ubi attribute, see 2.1 above).

aharon: 'auto' used to guess at direction
... this was accepted
... also proposed another attribute, autodirmethod
... which would specify the algorithm for deciding the direction of auto
... autodirmethod not accepted
... also makes things simpler
... end user can more easily control outcome by putting LRM or RLM or rephrasing etc.

<scribe> chair: any changes?

matial: think this is a good decision
... keep things simple
... don't have proven better algorithms

Bug 10809<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10809>

Proposes new submitdir attribute (boolean) for input and textarea elements, which would add a control to the submission whose name is that of the element suffixed with “_dir”, and whose value is the element’s computed direction at the time of submission.

Aharon: proposed submitdir which would add a field to submission, which would have either ltr or rtl as the value
... and additional field would be the element's name plus "_dir"
... long discussion; current resolution is new attribute 'dirname'
... some people assumed 'submitdir' would change the "directory" to which to submit to
... also, they didn't want a boolean attribute and wanted the field name controlled
... not that happy with 'dirname' because it is kind of unclear
... and probably don't want 'dir' itself, since dir now has three values (including auto)
... but value can't be auto

<scribe> chair: satisfied enough?

aharon: yes, okay enough

Bug 10816<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10816>

Proposes requiring user agents to implement the Unicode spec re Default Ignorable Code Points (Unicode Standard version 5.2, Chapter 5<http://unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.2.0/ch05.pdf>, section 5.21), even if the underlying platform does not handle them properly. In particular, this must be the case for the directional formatting characters in script dialog text, page titles, and tooltips. The HTML author can then use such characters to indicate the directio

aharon: if an app doesn't know how to deal with LRM/RLO, etc. etc.
... it should just ignore them
... as opposed to trying to draw them (e.g. as tofu boxes)
... this is not followed by some well-known platforms
... proposal was to add to html that user-agents implement DICP part of Unicode to the extent that they don't rely on platform to implement correctly
... hixie's response was "it's already in Unicode, so why repeat it..."
... but control characters no longer so important (since we have dir attributes) and platforms getting better anyway, okay with forgetting about it

matial: hixie rejected because has nothing to do with HTML protocol, just a recommendation for user-agents

aharon: possible to add, since there is some place for native controls, etc., so could include a note there

<scribe> chair: any objections?


Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found ScribeNick: aphillip

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: David DavidClarke Gwyneth Microsoft ScribeNick addison aharon aphillip freedom i18n joined matial trackbot
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jan/0000.html
Got date from IRC log name: 05 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-i18n-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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