<emma> Previous: 2010-12-09 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/09-lld-minutes.html

<uldis> hi emma, i'm Uldis Bojars

<uldis> we talked on email that i should introduce me at the start of the telco -- but i have difficulty connecting to the telco phone line

<kefo> Just curious what zakim knows and what he/she doesn't

<LarsG> zakim aacc is me

<emma> Scribe: Karen

<emma> scribenick: kcoyle

<uldis> antoine: i promised to introduce myself to the group, but have difficulty connecting to the telco bridge. sorry that i won't be able to participate in voice, at least for the beginning of the call

Administration

RESOLUTION: Minutes accepted

No telecons for the next two weeks

Next call will be January 6, 2011

final report

There is the lingering terminology issue that needs to be resolved

proposed in cologne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html

PROPOSED: to adopt the terminology proposed in Cologne for the future draft repor

markva: data set refers to a third type of thing, such as sets of bib records
... values int hose records would be value vocabularies

<TomB> +1 to support http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0095.html, noting Antoine's reply at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Dec/0097.html

emma: antoine suggested 'reference data set'

antoine: some things like name authority are not thought of in the library world as vocabularies, but data sets

markva: antoine is talking about exceptions to markva's typology, but these exceptions do not make a difference

antoine: it's a question of scope

markva: 1- bib records, 2 - values used in those records from vocabularies, 3- properties and classes
... 1 - data set, 2 value vocabularies 3 metadata set (?)

<jodi> it's always about the exceptions though ;(

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to reinforce that these are being classified based on use - not an air-tight typology, as per Mikael

tomB: we want to come up with 3 intuitively recognizable concepts without expecting that things will fall neatly into a single category

<michaelp> Couldn't a dataset be seen as a combination/selection of entities from value and element vocabularies?

tomB: things could be used in different ways

<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to support flexibility with MARC relators

tomB: support distinction between data set and value vocabulary, even though some sets of URIs can be used in more than one way

antoine: there could be flexibility between group 1 and 2, such as marc relators
... possible confusion in use of the term "value" -- some people have strong association with skosxl label

tomB: we should not try to be more precise than: value vocab is a set of terms that are/may be used as values
... includes skos concepts and dcmi types

<edsu> not sure if it's totally relevant, but danbri announced the Linked Datasets with the voiD Vocabulary w3c note which could provide some foundation for talking about "dataset": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2010Dec/0161.html

<TomB> +1 for Mark's proposal

discussing marks' summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0121.html

tomB: we agree that data models are not a special category, e.g. FRBR

<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to comment on possible dataset confusion?

antoine: ref. edsu link above, use of dataset is dangerous

emma: datasets are about instances of descriptions

<TomB> is wondering whether both element sets and value vocabularies could be seen as datasets

<markva> hard to hear, typing in background

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask whether element sets are also datasets?

emma: we are defining terms for our report, not other contexts

tomB: what is NOT a dataset? we could have element sets and value vocabularies and they are both datasets
... dataset could be everything that isn't in the other 2 categories; dataset is the more general term

edsu: note talks about vocabularies; as per antoine, dataset is any triples, so it's very open

tomb: element set is data set, ed?

markva: dataset is ambiguous; we should keep our audience in mind: librarians -- we want to communicate with them

<jodi> 'bibliographic dataset' is more restrictive, because librarians might see that as excluding archival data, say

emma: value vocabs, metadata data sets... these are data sets
... 3 defs: value vocabs, metadata sets, data set

<scribe> ACTION: Mark to add these definitions to the wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action01]

<TomB> edsu, this typology seems consistent with your point at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2010Nov/0101.html, where "element sets" = "RDF vocabulary"

RESOLUTION: to use these three terms as defined in our report

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest we discuss the definitions on a future call

tomB: put these defintions on future call

i'm available

<markva> great!

<TomB> value vocabulary, metadata element set, dataset

RESOLUTION: the three terms are: value vocabulary; metadata element set, and data set

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest that Mark post the definitions to the list, not just wiki page

<markva> OK!

tombB: asks mark to also post the definitions to the list

use cases

use case work is due by the end of December

<emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_BibData

Reporting on cluster work... created page and posted to mailing list

that was bib data cluster

No one here to report on authority data

<michaelp> Yes, we think so.

vocabulary alignment: will report in January

archive data: nothing new; probably will not finish by end of december

<edsu> lol (on mute)

<TomB> "it's always good to try" :-)

citation cluster: kai has been thinking about vcoabulary; essentially done

<pmurray> Agreed. I think the citation group is done for the moment.

<markva> not clear which action?

<emma> ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action03] [DONE]

<edsu> kai's diagram example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Citations#Illustrative_Example

<markva> unmute me

digital objects cluster: nothing to report

all cluster tasks continue

emma: there are now templates for the use case cluster pages to follow

<uldis> TomB: no, not yet

Welcoming Uldis!

<TomB> welcome, Uldis!

Working with national library of Latvia

<TomB> Uldis's introduction: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0047.html

What cluster for Uldis? Any that are still ongoing.

<Zakim> jodi, you wanted to ask about unclustered use cases + pending social uses

jodi: there are several use cases that are not in clusters
... there are uses that not yet have use cases; should we have a miscellaneous cluster?
... or add them to an existing cluster?
... there are things we wanted to take into account, such as more social activities around bibliographic data, social uses of bib data
... should we add these?

<antoine> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseNotes#Things_that_should_be_covered_by_use_cases ?

<jodi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0077.html

<jodi> yes, antoine, that's what I'm referring to

<jodi> the list email is what's http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/index.php?title=UseCaseNotes&oldid=2128

emma: if there are missing use cases that were not covered in the f2f meeting, we need volunteers to contribute these use cases, but it needs to be done soon

<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to ask about social web

<jodi> so, more specifically: Link Social Bibliography to a Bibliographic Network, Find stuff in several collections

<jodi> and Find e-books see http://efoundations.typepad.com/efoundations/2010/07/finding-ebooks.html

<jodi> so those are the 3 use cases I see in "social uses"

antoine: asking if Uldis was involved in social web incubator, and could take this on?

<jodi> we also have 3 use cases that aren't clustered, here: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Cases#Not_yet_clustered:

<jodi> of those, "using circulation data" could possibly go into "social uses"

problem is that we don't have use cases for these... use cases need to be written

<markva> what do the shepherds of those UCs think where they should go? Jodi, Gordon, William

uldis: would like to team up with someone to do this

<jodi> Uldis, I'm happy to help with them

<scribe> ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action03]

emma: put a call on the list to ask others to contribute to these use cases

<jodi> In terms of the not yet clustered, does 'digitized map archive' belong in heterogeneous data?

emma: unclustered cases... let's try to put them into existing clusters

<jodi> circulation data is about what gets used. hard to know where to put it...

<markva> UC can also belong to several clusters; dont see problem with that

<jodi> and library address data is different again

<uldis> antoine: indeed. i own the 'digitized map archive' use case. though i am not certain which of existing clusters it fits best

topics -- things other than use cases

<emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Use_Case_SEO

<rsinger> ?

<scribe> ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action04]

<emma> sorry I've been kicked out !!

<pmurray> Did we lose our chair?

yes, we did lose you

shall we end? are we close enough?

<markva> captain overboard!

ah, a la' francais!

<markva> antoine, might you step in?

<rsinger> yes

<uldis> yes

<TomB> antoine is taking over to wrap up...

<scribe> completed use case is unclustered

all other actions continue

emma: reminds us to update events page

this is our way of recording the outreach of the group

Call ends

<jodi> see you next year! :)

<kefo> bye

<antoine> bye, happy new year to everyone!

<uldis> happy holidays to everyone! :)

<michaelp> See you next year

<edsu> Bonne année :-D

<TomB> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/RunningAgenda

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/loose/lose/
Found Scribe: Karen
Found ScribeNick: kcoyle
Default Present: +33.1.53.79.aaaa, emma, kefo, antoine, kcoyle, +1.330.289.aabb, marcia, TomB, +49.613.692.aacc, +1.423.463.aadd, +1.856.528.aaee, rsinger, LarsG, markva, +1.404.892.aaff, jodi, pmurray, michaelp, edsu, rayd, uldis
Present: +33.1.53.79.aaaa emma kefo antoine kcoyle +1.330.289.aabb marcia TomB +49.613.692.aacc +1.423.463.aadd +1.856.528.aaee rsinger LarsG markva +1.404.892.aaff jodi pmurray michaelp edsu rayd uldis
Regrets: Gordon Alex_C Jeff Felix Kim Alex_H Monica Joachim Kai Marcia Martin
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0054.html
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Dec 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html
People with action items: jodi mark uldis