<klotz> nick are you calling in?

<klotz> http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-forms-minutes.html

<scribe> scribe: ebruchez

MicroXML, etc.

Kurt: A lot of exchanges going on, I have been trying to figure out what ppl want to accomplish. Big issue is namespaces. James Clark proposed MicroXML, which would minimize use of namespaces., and use a simpler inheritance model (based on proposal by Mike Kay). Not a huge amount of consensus, besides: simplify XML dev, simplify XML for use along JSON lines, what do we do wrt XML / HTML5. Answer: still in progress.

Leigh: Lot of attention to this wrt web and web browsers. What about other communities? Financial industry? Is plan to leave this as legacy?

Kurt: Don't think there is plan per se.

Leigh: Who are the stakeholders?

Kurt: Core ppl e.g. xml-dev: is there any way to solve namespaces issue. CMS ppl don't want to see breakage. Don't think is has permeated beyond these groups yet.

Leigh: So strict subsetting.

Kurt: I keep pushing E4X. HTML 5 opposed to anything w/ letter X.

Leigh: JSON has benefit you use "." and things work.
... Solutions can also be APIs, Javascript. Nothing can stop that.

<pfennell> Hello, I can talk again.

Leigh: Primary move for JSON is expression language syntax. XForms needs expression language that is also parsable.
... DOM has hurt XML a lot.

Kurt: Agreed.
... If you don't have a development towards E4X or libraries to make things simpler, there is a problem. Should be what W3C should be doing. If we could get something out there, it would help.

Leigh: Key is sth fully implementable in JavaScript.

Kurt: We have a bigger stake than some on these issues.

Leigh: ...
... A library providing integration with JSON and JavaScript.

Kurt: (Conversion JSON - XML)

Leigh: Taking a look in this area.

Kurt: In XML community, lots of ppl don't think much about XML on the web. E.g. Mike Kay is working on JavaScript implementation of XSLT 2. We should keep an eye on this.

Leigh: Look at latest Chrome, it's very fast.

Kurt: Looking at mobile market, dominant market currently is apps rather than web pages. Web a bit clunky in comparison. Also factor to look wrt simplification of XML.
... Mix of XML and JSON.
... ...

Erik: Trying to figure out the impact on XForms, or general discussion?

Leigh: Just a brainstorm.

Erik: There is a move way from XML, especially on the web. Lots of places where XML was used now see replacements, e.g. HTML 5, JSON, YAML, etc.

Kurt: Seems to follow a bit the curve of SQL. Flip side is: web side of things is very selective. When a tech doesn't seem to become predominant, it is perceived is not being successful. But in reality, there is a huge amount of data in XML at this point. If the question is whether XML is becoming non-relevant, I don't think so. But there is very vocal minority, in the web community, that is pushing against it.
... Scala discussion is a bit disturbing.

Philip: On MicroXML, I think it is good in that it doesn't really affect XForms much. I would be happy with something like this.
... On the mobile space, because with apps you are not tied to the web stack, isn't this a good thing?

Leigh: [Picoforms, ...]

Kurt: I don't think past efforts are indicative of future ones. Picoforms focus was relatlively minimal implementation for small devices. Android is very full-featured. As a platform it is a pretty radical break from where things have been going (also with iPhone, but iPhone is more captive). One question for XForms working group: what is the best way to deploy XForms? Web, or standalone engine on mobile devices? Core API for other developers?
... Number of possibilities open up.

Erik: [Talking about apps vs. web stack, exemplified by Android and ChromeOS. Different players are making different bets on the future.]

Kurt: [...] Category of "apps" will work locally, based on web stack. [...] Getting back to XForms: where is the sweet spot? With XQuery, you think more about list processing vs. document processing. More feedback on XForms if you include working with JSON. Can some convention be set to formally define XML construct within JSON?

Leigh: Not much about XForms that requires XML in data model, except XPath as expression language. Can't we just do the JSON - XML conversion?

Kurt: I think one sweet spot is using both JSON and XML in same structures. Based on E4X experience, native integration with language is very beneficial. Is there a common path language we can use for both data models? Issue with JavaScript is list processing is not as good as in XPath.
... XForms gives you a data model, HTML 5 doesn't.

Erik: [Talk on JavaScript version of XForms, and possibility to have JS for bindings. Seems absolutely possible.]

Kurt: I think you could define a path model including the best of XML and JSON.

Erik: XPath ppl might have done some thinking on this already.

Leigh: Kurt, it would be great to engage the xml-dev community.

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: ebruchez
Inferring ScribeNick: ebruchez
Default Present: +44.782.483.aaaa, Leigh_Klotz, +1.443.837.aabb, +1.443.837.aacc, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez
Present: +44.782.483.aaaa Leigh_Klotz +1.443.837.aabb +1.443.837.aacc Nick_van_den_Bleeken ebruchez

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Got date from IRC log name: 15 Dec 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-forms-minutes.html
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