See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 26 November 2010
<scribe> Scribe: Luc Moreau
<scribe> ScribeNick: Luc
<YolandaGil> hi Irini, it's great to "see" you!
Yolanda: rule of engagement. No
reference to specific languages.
... discussion should be at conceptual level, rather than
specific level
... examples to be discussed should be from our flagship
scenarios
<YolandaGil> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Recommendations_for_scenarios
Yolanda: OK, we have
agreement.
... we should keep in mind those
requirements/recommendations
A formal thank you to Yolanda for her amazing chairing of the incubator.
<pgroth> clap!
<jun> +1
<DGarijo> yeah, thanks!
<Jose_> +1!
<SamCoppens> +1
<Irini_> +1
Paul: I tried to group the set of suggested concepts
<pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Suggested_Concepts
Paul: proposal, go through the
list of concepts, identify issues with grouping, identify
missing concepts
... then go through timeline. Feedback from Yvan to be
discussed
<DGarijo> yes
Paul: concept 1
... concept 2: Process
Paulo: qualification: do you talk about an execution of experience, or a process that can be repeated agian, and again?
what about unix process?
<jun> but as long as the definition is clear, I dont' see that as a problem
it's an execution
<DGarijo> i agree with jun
<Irini_> what about a query?
Paul: it's an execution we talk about, an instance of execution
<ssahoo2> In DL - the process is a concept and the execution of a process is a instance of the process
<ssahoo2> TBox vs. ABox
<DGarijo> i agree
Paul: by process, we mean execution of a program or execution of workflow
<Jose_> I agree wiyh Paul's definition
Paul: the next concept is recipe, which is a program to be executed
<jun> I agree with Paul, as long as we mean Process refers to an execution, I am fine with it
<ssahoo2> I agree
Paul: i agree there is a difference between a program and an execution. Concept 2 is an execution.
<SamCoppens> +1
Paul: are we fine with a notion
of execution?
... concept 3: recipe, is a program, a workflow, a set of
rules. Something that can be executed.
<jun> why is that not just a Resource?
<JimM> +q
Yolanda: i would be concenred to
add this to a charter of a WG
... it's difficult to reach consensus on this
... it's very important, but I would suggest the group to drop
this one
Paul: what is needed is a link to a recipe, not a recipe itself.
Jim: agreement with Paul, we don't want to standardize on recipes.
Yolanda: OK
reminder: rules of engagement!!! No ref to vocabularies!
<Jose_> +1 to jun's point
I could understand you Paulo, can you write what you said?
<ssahoo2> so, I think both the notions of "recipe" and "execution of a recipe" are needed
Paul: we talk about an execution
of a process, and it would be useful to refer to what is being
executed, i.e. recipe
... do we agreement we need a concept "Recipe Link", i.e. a
pointer to a recipe
<JimM> +1
<DGarijo> +1
<jun> Paul: do we need a propety call recipelink, we don't standardize the concept recipe
+1 to Paul
<ssahoo2> no, it is necessary to explicitly model a process, since a process itself can have properties
<SamCoppens> +1 for the link
<jun> +1
<jun> re @ssahoo2, I think that should be done by a specific community, to build their own extensions for that purpose
Paul: OK, we have support for
Recipe Link
... standardizing recipes would be totally out of scope
Paul, OK, let's move on to next concept
Paul: concept 4: agent. In most case, it is a person.
<ssahoo2> I agree
<DGarijo> +1
<JimM> yes - agent in the broad sense (corporations as legal persons, etc.)
PLuc: should we leverage existing notions of agents (e.g. foaf)?
Paul: do we recognize the need for agents, if so we should recognize it here, and leave to the WG to decide how to standardize it (inc. reusing a definition out there)
Yolanda: notion of responsibility
Paul: let's leave it to the
end
... is agent = source?
<JimM> source might be the concept of responsible agent...
<SamCoppens> I see source as a specialization of agent
<ssahoo2> +1 @Sam
Paul: is source a specialization of agent?
<JimM> though sources such as documents don't seem to be agents
i thought a source could be a database?
Paul: do we need a concept to mark that something acts as a source?
<ssahoo2> No, source is just a specialization of agent
Paul: some say that a document can be source
<ssahoo2> In that case, source will be a specialization of "Resource"
Paul: suggestion to remove Source altogether
<ssahoo2> and the information derived from the document
<YolandaGil> source is now gone, just refresh the page. i added a note that the agent can be a creator or a contributor
Paulo: need a concept that is
actionable, capable of making assertions
... is provenance container something that knows something?
<JimM> +q
Paulo: we need a knowledge container
Jim: we need to be able to say something comes from a person or from a database
<Jose_> +1 to Jim's point
Jim: do we decide now, or we leave it to the WG
Paulo: source is a connection
between a resource and an agent
... do you mean an agent says? or an agent is responsible
for?
<JimM> -q
<ssahoo2> Yolanda: Why are we removing the other examples from the grouping page for the agreed on terms?
<SamCoppens> +1
<DGarijo> +1
what was the resolution? I dropped off the call.
<jun> we agreed to keep the agent and removed source
<YolandaGil> resolution was to use agent and drop source since it meant contributor etc
Paul: Role, we need this notion, even if in a given realisation (e.g. DL) we drop it, maybe because we encode it differently
<YolandaGil> this notion of query seems strange to me
<JimM> user query is a type of recipe?
<JimM> and then out of scope since we don't type recipes
Paul: Query: i dont' see why we need this for a general provenance model
Paulo: you can get an answer, but not for the question that was asked
<JimM> or is it just a type of input (role = query)?
<JimM> +q
<YolandaGil> +1 go away
Jim: user query can be seen as role, each community could define the kind of roles they consider important
<SamCoppens> +1
<Paulo> -1
0
<DGarijo> i'm not sure, it query could be seen as a justification... 0
we are not suggesting to standardize on what queries are here? right?
<jun> I don't understand what this concept does, so I can't vote
<Jose_> an example is necessary to illustrate his concept
isn't a query a kind of artifact?
<ssahoo2> yes @Luc
<DGarijo> could we make an exception and let Paulo put an example that is not from the scenarios?
<ssahoo2> I think we should explicitly put it under Resource
<ssahoo2> instead of completely reoving it
<ssahoo2> removing
Paul: to move on, let's leave it there for now
<Jose_> it will need to be revised...
Paul: can we modify the page, and
indicate it could be subclass of resource or role
... next concept: Location. There are many ontologies for
location.
<ssahoo2> The notion here refers to a property
<jcheney> +1 for not reinventing wheel...
Jim: location is not universal, and is specific to domains
<YolandaGil> +1 for leaving it out of the core
<Jose_> location does not look core to me either
Satya: it's just a link to location, rather than location itself, we need
but isn't this already defined in location ontologies?
<DGarijo> i agree with satya. It's not reinventing the wheel, just pointing to other ontologies...
<Jose_> if it's pointing out, then it's not core
<YolandaGil> is there an example of location use in the 3 flagship scenario?
Satya: there exists a notion of locationOf
where disease was declared maybe?
<ssahoo2> yes
<DGarijo> yolanda, yes: if the sensor is a buoy, in the disease outbreak scenario, then it's important to know where was it produced
<JimM> -q
Paulo: Location is a property of a concept
<Jose_> sorry, I have to run. will catch up with the minutes
<YolandaGil> why would the location where the disease was declared deserve a special treatment more than other entities?
I think this discussion is very OWL specific concept/property!!
<jun> given that our disease scenario shows a need for location expression, I am prone to have a notion of location in the core
i agree with you Yolanda, we could talk about color, too!
<YolandaGil> why location and not "consumable resource"?
Paul: we need to move on, turn location into a link, which must point to another ontology
<DGarijo> +1
Paul: like we did for recipe lonk
<ssahoo2> yes, it is a link
<ssahoo2> +1 for link
<jun> +1
<SamCoppens> +1
<DGarijo> +1 for derivation
Paul: next: derivation
<YolandaGil> +1
<jun> +1
<ssahoo2> +1
+1
<SamCoppens> +1
Paulo: it is not minimal, it can be derived from processes
<DGarijo> agnostic aproach?
<jun> I don't agree. It's a very important shortcut, when people don't want to express the image copying process in details
<JimM> +1 as a shortcut
+1, this is a dataflow view ... we may not know the process
<YolandaGil> I think there are a lot of +1
Paul: there is majority of people for keeping it
Paul Use and Generation
+1 to both of them
<ssahoo2> 9, 10, 13
Satya: participation could be combined with them too
i thought participation was like agent control
<jun> I think they are quite different, as seen from the examples
<jun> I think the sub-classing should be done by the WG
I don't think we should group Use and Generation
<DGarijo> nope
Paul: OK, agreement
... ordering of process
<JimM> +1 - links from processes to inputs(used), outputs(generated), and things that participate
<YolandaGil> it seems that derivation, generation, use, and participation are all shortcuts, they will be particularly useful when the provenance is incomplete
Paul: useful for a control view
of the world
... OK agreement
<YolandaGil> same for ordering
<DGarijo> +1 For control
Paul: notion of Control (11)
<YolandaGil> does control releate to the notion of responsibility
Paul: no objection
<JimM> and subtype of participation...
<DGarijo> to be the agent responsible of an object couldn't be a role?
Paul: notion of versioning
... we would want some "lightweight" solution
<JimM> +1 for a link
<DGarijo> +1 for versioning, but could be grouped with derivation
Paul: otherwise, standardizing a versioning system could be scary
<ssahoo2> I think notion of versioning is important
<ssahoo2> +1
<jcheney> maybe it can be made optional/experimental?
<Irini_> +1 for jcheney
<DGarijo> +1 for link
Paul: we should not it should be a link, so rather lightweight/optional
+q
Paulo: i cant' see the difference between participation and control
<ssahoo2> :) good example
<JimM> participant maps to dc:contributor versus dc:creator for control - broader than control/own
Satya: it's not a control link, but indicates the presence
<ssahoo2> yes, presence
Paulo: does it have influence?
<JimM> participation is a link between a mutable resource and a process that is part of its lifecycle
<jcheney> I keep getting dropped
why is this core?
<JimM> a web server participates in providing a response but does not control it...
scribe: but if the web server wasn't there there wouldn't be any response
<jcheney> Wanted to ask whether there is redundancy between provenance containers, accounts, and more general collections.
<jcheney> E.g. an account could be viewed as a subcollection of provenance statements.
Paul: participating has influence on something
<ssahoo2> I agree @Paul
Paul: Control is subclass of
participation
... we should not the relationship between participation and
control, and the fact they influence processes
... container
<YolandaGil> I noted on the wiki that Control is a subclass of participation, and put Control after Participation in the list
<DGarijo> +q
Satya: is provenance container a resource?, same for collection
Paulo: why not use named
graph?
... i don't see the provenance container as a kind of
source
who said resource is not mutable? on the web, they definitely are!
<ssahoo2> Resource (from provenir:data perspective) is definitely mutable, although opm:Artifact definition is for immutable
<JimM> w.r.t., the processes being described
<ssahoo2> I think we should discuss it in WG
<jun> +1 to ssahoo2
<JimM> companies can go through mergers to create new companies
may i suggest we expand provenance container to containing provenance assertions
<JimM> +1 on the larger topic - I think account is needed and there is a need to be able to treat them as resources with their own provenance
<ssahoo2> yes, @Paul provenir:data is for both mutable and immutable
for Resource, can we add a line that we need to distinguish the Resource and its States
<JimM> +q
<jun> it's a complex problem that cannot be solved in one telcom
<Irini_> +1 for sun
<DGarijo> -q
<Irini_> s/jumjun
<JimM> mutability is a role relative to a set of processes and one resource may be immutable relative to some and mutable relative to others
Paul: add the distinction of mutable and immutable resources under concept 1
<jun> yes. we need both. and IMO the WG should decide how to separate them
<JimM> -q
Paul: we agree we want a provenance container (which could end up being a named graph)
<DGarijo> +q
Oaul: view/account
<ssahoo2> exactly @Daniel
Daniel: can they be seen as provenance container?
<YolandaGil> Satya: what was your example of "Participation"
<ssahoo2> Other than what is listed on the wiki?
<YolandaGil> yes, i'd like a good example that refers to one of the 3 flagship scenarios
Luc: accounts are conceptually different from provenance containers
I dropped off again
<ssahoo2> I will have to re-read the 3 flagship scenarios
<ssahoo2> I can send you by mail later?
<YolandaGil> yes!
I can't dial in anymore
<YolandaGil> I think it is good to keep both
<YolandaGil> +1 for time
<ssahoo2> Paul: Both accounts and containers are retained
<DGarijo> +1 for time
<SamCoppens> +1
<jun> +1
<JimM> +1
+1 for time
<ssahoo2> Paul: Agreement on keeping Time
<ssahoo2> Paul: Next concept Collection
it seems I can't call in anymore at this time :-(
<jcheney> my take: save collections for 2.0 - probably not enough consensus
<YolandaGil> Sorry Luc :-( we'll transcribe
As I can't talk, I would like to say that collections would be a very big chunk to standardize on
We can't do it in two years.
<YolandaGil> Satya points out we should have it as a link, not as a concept
<ssahoo2> Paul: Collections is a difficult to model
Defintely useful, but this is not mature yet for standardization
<YolandaGil> Paul mentions this would be very hard to do and should be left for the future
<jun> +1 to Satya
<YolandaGil> Satya says it is a containment relationship
<JimM> perhaps all that's needed is the idea of extraction (source) - one resource is something came from a larger resource
<JimM> you created a doc, I edited a chapter, the chapter came from your doc
That's not the issue, who do collections evolve when being transformed. It's complex to describe.
<JimM> trying to keep that out of scope
<ssahoo2> Yolanda: Can consider modeling collection subclass of Resource
<JimM> +q
<jun> Yolanda: we should model Collection as a specific type of Resource. Would that be sufficient?
<ssahoo2> Jim: Important to represent information that is source-oriented
<ssahoo2> Paul: We will not model concept of collection in WG and is a specific type of resource
<DGarijo> +1 for option 1
<ssahoo2> +1 for option 2
<YolandaGil> option 1: a collection is a type of resource
<jun> +1 for option 2
<YolandaGil> option 2: we keep it as a very lightweight notion
<jcheney> +1 for option 2, more minimalistic for now
<YolandaGil> +1 for option 1
<JimM> +1 on 2
<SamCoppens> +1 for option2
i don't know what we vote on, but, please make it small!
<Irini_> +1 for option 2
<ssahoo2> Paul: Include notion of containment as a property
<pgroth> Paul: but it must be a lightweight notion
<ssahoo2> Paul: Yolanda to include notion of responsibility
<jcheney> is this the same as attribution?
<jun> is that more specific or broader than controlled by?
<ssahoo2> Jim: Seems to be closer to notion of source
<jcheney> I think control does not imply responsibility and vice versa...
<DGarijo> the controller, or the role played by the controller?
<Irini_> very close to attribution I think
<JimM> +1 for something to manage responsibility
<SamCoppens> +1
<ssahoo2> Paul: Include term for responsibility
<DGarijo> yes, +1
<jcheney> +q
<jun> i think we can list responsibility on the list, and maybe mention it's related to controlled by
<ssahoo2> Yolanda: Responsibility is distinct from control
<ssahoo2> James: Are there existing terms for modeling responsibility?
<SamCoppens> a piece of information can be derived from a process, but an agent can digitally sign the information taking responsibility for the generated information. That is why it should be seperated with controlled by
<ssahoo2> James: Similar to trust, responsibility can be derived from provenance
I see responsibility as something not primitive. We can imagine a process that allocates responsibility to a user, all this controlled by some agent. So with the basic terms, we ahve we can model responsibility.
<JimM> +q
<ssahoo2> James: Need to proper to differentiate between responsibility and endorsement
<jcheney> +1 for useful shortcut
<ssahoo2> Paul: Agreement to keep Responsibility as a note
<ssahoo2> Paul: Any missing terms?
<JimM> no :-)
it's not a new term, but what do we say about security
is it in scope of the WG do define ways of signing provenance graphs?
<pgroth> i think we don't time
<jcheney> should wrap up
<jcheney> thanks Paul
<jun> thanks Paul
<DGarijo> yeah, thanks!
great Paul!
<ssahoo2> good work Paul!
<SamCoppens> thanks everybody
<YolandaGil> Ok, I transcribed everything at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Suggested_Concepts
<YolandaGil> let me know if I missed anything from today's discussion
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/jum/sun/ WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/jumjun Found Scribe: Luc Moreau Found ScribeNick: Luc WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. Default Present: Yolanda, Luc, +30281076aaaa, Irini, jun, SamCoppens, +1.915.603.aabb, jcheney, DGarijo?, +49.166.4.aacc, +1.706.461.aadd, +1.217.417.aaee Present: Yolanda Luc +30281076aaaa Irini jun SamCoppens +1.915.603.aabb jcheney DGarijo? +49.166.4.aacc +1.706.461.aadd +1.217.417.aaee Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010Nov/0041.html Found Date: 26 Nov 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/26-prov-xg-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]