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<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Date: 11 November 2010
<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
<janina> agenda: this
<oedipus> scribenick: oedipus
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
ACTION-194: The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
<trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-194 failed, please let sysreq know about it
ACTION-195: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
<trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-195 failed, please let sysreq know about it
JS: propose we skip today
<MikeSmith> action-74?
<trackbot> ACTION-74 -- Steve Faulkner to update change proposal on bug 10592 (was HTML WG action 197) -- due 2010-11-12 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/74
MC: been collating and organizing
actions that arose out of TPAC and separating sub-team
issues
... migrated ones picked up by HTML tracker
ACTION-194: The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
<trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-194 failed, please let sysreq know about it
<paulc> The WG list of actions looks better now: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/open
The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
GJR: The definition of img should be: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled.
JS: please file as change proposal
GJR: will do
ACTION-195 fulfillment http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
<richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
<inserted> scribenick: richardschwedtfe
<inserted> scribenick: richardschwerdtfe
janina: we had an action packed
week
... lots of action items
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html
janina: the HTML WG meeting was 2
days in 2 rooms with lots of discussion. The minutes gregory
just posted
... there was major activity in media
<oedipus> note that the each of the minutes from HTML WG sessions contains 2-days' worth of minutes
janina: there were many positive
things expected for accessibility that I focused on in the
plenary.
... aria mappings, etc. many highlights
... Any questions before going into detail?
... is everett on the call?
... will postpone issues 134 and 133 as he is not available
now
<oedipus> ACTION-195 fulfillment http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
janina: we actioned someone for a different example.
oedipus: I am going to come up with a proposal for truly decorative images
<oedipus> HTML5 section 4.8.1.1.7
oedipus: redraft this section
<oedipus> Exceptions to this rule, in cases where CSS cannot be used to display an entirely decorative image, are covered by the HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives. [HTML ALT TECHS] Authors are also encouraged to consult the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 for more detailed information and acceptable techniques. [WCAG 2.0]
<oedipus> Exceptions to this rule, in cases where CSS cannot be used to display an entirely decorative image, are covered by the HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives. [HTML ALT TECHS] Authors are also encouraged to consult the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 for more detailed information and acceptable techniques. [WCAG 2.0]
oedipus: I decided that the best way forward was to take the first part and then take the second paragraph. Rather than take the Lady of Chalotte example the wisest thing is to remove this example and rather than state in the HTML 5 spec. what to do with decorative images. ... Rather than go into a discussion on what to do in the case where an image is truly decorative to point to the HTML alt text and wcag for exceptable techniques
<oedipus> ACTION-195 change propsal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
<JF> +1 to this Greg
janina: we should consider this
quickly
... getting the proposal together is obviously the
priority
... we should finalize this discussion next week
<oedipus> GJR: one thing that might need addition is to state that images defined using CSS cannot be annotated (@alt, @labelledby)
oedipus: if it is truly
decorative and part of sitewise design use CSS
... there is a second paragraph of exceptions to the rule
<oedipus> cyns: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/purely_decorative_images
oedipus. are there are peer sections that discuss decorative images?
cynthia: are there are peer sections that discuss decorative images?
oedipus: will look
<oedipus> ACTION-195: GJR to add note about CSS image annotation; review other sections of HTML5 draft to ensure that all information about use of alt text and its usage have been removed and ported to the HTML5 Alt Techs document
<trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-195 failed, please let sysreq know about it
janina: we look at this again and
the resolution was that no change to the previous guidance. We
should stick to previous guidance
... title should not be treated as an alternative to alt
<oedipus> plus 1 to a resolution to reconfirm guidance
rich: so alt should be given precedence to title for accessible name computation?
janina: yes
<oedipus> plus 1 to a resolution to reconfirm guidance
Resolution: title should not be
treated a replacement for alt on images.
... title should not be treated a replacement for alt on
images.
<janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/
michael: the url is just an index of messages
janina: this is the primary place
holder for alt text in the spec.
... we tried to separate conformance checking from
guidance
... we came up with two sets of recommendations on both. In the
case of conformance I asked Laura to combine two
recommendations
... We thought the recommendations was to take the
recommendation on alt or to keep as in HTML 4 or to keep as is
in the spec. today
... I sent an email to Laura and it was unclear what the
differences were between 2 and 4
... the labelledby is part of 2
... can you explain you you see the difference
... I am not sure where to go with this
<oedipus> laura: change proposals regarding missing alt and conformance: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0095.html
cynthia: I thought our goal was
to reduce the number of proposals in Leone
... if we can't understand all the proposals there is no way
the working group will
janina: if we combine 2 and 4 regarding the labelledby
cynthia: more clear is a good thing
janina: I can do that
... our advice to drop the other proposals would be good?
cynthia: I agree it is too
complicated
... only 3 proposals be reviewed by the chairs
janina: any objection?
... we are on the verge of reconfirming the concensus in the
room
... will finalize next week in the meeting?
<oedipus> plus 1 to CfC
cynthia: can we do this earlier as they are concerned about time
RESOLUTION: Regarding Issue 31 is to conduct a survey on 3 change proposals: keep it the same as in HTML 4; do nothing; implement the WAI consensus guidelines
janina: I will look at this later
today
... we had recommended that we keep the wai concensus
guidelines
oedipus: Thanks to the bug triage
team. They have identified a single master bug based on the
access command requirements
... we should ping you when?
janina: we should ping you when?
oedipus: next week
janina: gregory asked to postpone for a week
<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus
RS: re-starting monday calls for
canvas to investigate rich text editing -- separated out reqs
for using standard controls using APIs -- will address in
change proposal
... plan: asked to create individual defects related to RTE --
what needs to be done as far as API changes to 2D context
standard controls to define wwhich elements are allowable in
canvas sub-tree -- 1st time that used shadow DOM to navigate
but not render -- some issues need to be investigated about it
-- what constitutes fallback and how to keep in sync
... Rich Text Editing -- will take a lot of time; need to
ensure that what is in contenteditable section can be reflected
in a CANVAS implementation -- can't do now -- those are the
issues we are working on
... re-iterate PaulC's comment -- in mobile TV space, comment
made "what would you need for a profile"? canvas + javascript
would hit the "sweet spot" -- must address a11y in RTE because
Canvas might be only UI one can see in complex apps
CS: frankO on board with that?
RS: yes
... which "that"?
CS: anything to do with RTE
RS: said need to define where gaps are -- didn't think could do by last call
PC: that is fair portrayal -- FrankO's warning was "this is not a trivial pursuit -- it will take a lot of effort"
JS: messages have to be clear --
enough complexity in proposed text
... questions?
MK: talked with FrankO -- inside canvas doubled testing effort -- concern: prevent double texting
RS: doubletexting of.... ?
... components not being rendered will double?
MK: yes, concern was that testing efforts have to be doubled because have 2 diff contexts
RS: don't see how can reduce -- there is content now that is not being rendered -- going to be a lot of work
MK: so there will be some pain for everyone?
RS: yes -- trying to ensure that address all of the canvas issues -- spec allows shadow DOM -- in spec -- needs to be synced with what is in visual rendering
<kliehm> s/concern: double testing/concern: double testing/
RS: next step: make sure that
when have shadow DOM what is appropriate behavior of UA in HTML
-- how to render IFrame in shadow DOM -- rendering issues -- is
CSS allowed
... need to flesh out shadow DOM in HTML5 spec
PC: said starting up
sub-team
... what is relative priority of that work taking resources
away from other important a11y work
RS: think done with ARIA in HTML5
work -- should fiinish in few weeks
... not working on media stuff because i have canvas and ARIA
on my plate -- heard FrankO getting involved in media
... FrankO might be critical resource for both efforts
PC: one of my concerns as WG
chair, have to have "greeedy algorithm" -- December 8 for
editors; ChangeProposals: February 23, 2011
... want to ensure that don't get to january 23rd and have
people say "hey, can't make deadline for LC"
... want to provide perspective -- will have to perform
balancing act
RS: appreciate concern -- trying to get ARIA to CR using same core group of people
PC: where are we with a11y issues
and what is schedule for doing work assigned at F2F
... by first week in december, would like to have a TF report
in 3 weeks to say this is where TF putting resources to meet 23
February 2011 date
RS: february 23?
PC: 23 February 2011 is deadline
for all change proposals for escalated problems
... chairs negotiating with editors about 8 December 2010 date
-- number of bugs being closed reather quickly -- some have
already been decided; editors are processing LC bugs at same
time
... for a11y, always have to have "this is when change
proposals need to be done" target in our minds
... why we dedicated a lot of time to a11y issues at HTML WG
F2F at TPAC
JS: ARIA mappings pretty close to complete?
RS: in terms of aria integration, yes; a11y mapping will take longer
JS: ARIA mapping for HTML5
RS: should be finished next week
CS: due next week so it will be done
RS: at that point chairs will have to make decisions -- once done, will be major win for a11y
JS: will free up time -- sub-team may go back on hiatus again depending on circumstances
RS: david bolter offered to work
on mapping, a plus
... mapping not limited to ARIA< but whole HTML5 spec
JS: API mappings, yes
... no spec or last call implications on API mappings
RS: need to get it done
... i will be working with some AT vendors in 2011 on HTML5
support -- AT vendor support issue we haven't yet addressed
<richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
<paulc> leaving now to get ready for the WG meeting
<JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0066.html
<JF> URL = Franks catagorization
<scribe> scribenick: richardschwerdtfe
janina: A few people got
incensed. We took a path on categorizing the issues. most of
these were user agents some were spec related.
... The timed text specification was going to move to a new
working group that HTML could possibly reference
... the reduced the change proposal to 9
... the media subteam is taking this approach under advisement.
The general subtext was is this is a good approach
... we are talking about a gap analysis. We sheduled a long
meeting for next wednesday
... more developments going forward on this
group: nothing left out
martin: howework for next week is
embedded content
... all that content needs to be available to assistive
technologies. What about object, SVG, etc. that also contain
embedded content
... we will see if other elements require accessible work like
canvas
... we talk to the task force about the results after
Thanksgiving
... there is a range of other bugs other than the fallback
content
janina: how many bugs
martin: there 23 the task force
needs to keep an eye on.
... there were 50 bugs with the a11yTF keyword
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Bug_Triage
janina: any questions for martin?
<oedipus> thanks to martin and the bug-triage team -- have made my life a lot easier!
janina; ok are past teh hour
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