See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 05 November 2010
<anthony> scribe: anthony
<scribe> scribeNick: anthony
<adrianba> minutes of html wg testing tf -> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html#item04
AB: Above is the link to HTML WG
discussion on testing
... The discussion started with a description of the process we
have been following
... how people submit tests
... someone reviews them
... similar to SVG process
... discussion on what tests have been submitted so far
... currently organised by feature area
... folders for each feature
... goal of that was to avoid problems that happened in CSS
where tests were
... tied to parts of the spec
... makes it difficult to change parts of the spec
... They spoke about ref tests
... and harnesses
... it turns out there wont be a single harness
... there may be several
... There was discussion about templates
... There'll be an inventory test file
... that lists all the tests
... and what the type the test is
... and any extra data required to run the tests
... that way people can build their own harness if they
like
... One of the other goals was that some people had
... was the granularity of the tests
... whether to have one test per file
... or to have a test that tests a whole range of different
things
... There is a balance of how many assertions you should have
in a test file
... Common sense approach
... if you see a test with lots of assertions
... then it may need to be change
... it will come down to the group consensus
DS: Probably a good balance
... will be grouping tests
... according to similar features
AB: There was an upper bound of
features
... that you wouldn't want to test in a single test file
... the definition of what's a feature
... is a bit vague
DS: When you're talking about
scripted interfaces
... All the interfaces of an element
... might be a particular good way to go
AB: Have a number of tests of get
element by class name
... would make sense to bundle those together
KK: Depends on how deep you want
to go
... different APIs are more interesting
... some methods need more in depth testing
DS: Point taken
... May want to tests more variations
KK: Good start is one test for
every method
... that's a good coverage
AB: The next thing people talked
about was
... the difference between manual and automatic test
... If it is possible to do an automated test
... then it should be done that way
PD: Does that include static visual comparison?
KK: Had agreement that static
content was visual
... that there is a page with the reference
DS: You familiar with the SVG framework
KK: No
... The motivation is that, my point of view
... the browser vendors have some information they can use
there
... there is a set of canvas tests that are rendering
specific
... but don't have reference tests
... but they are able to use them
AB: So then we had some
discussion about hosting the tests
... on the test.w3.org
... there are some tests that require a server side element to
them
... for example form submission
... you need to check what submitted is the correct thing
... and there was some discussion on how that would work
KK: For example if you're going
to test cookies
... or header of HTML page
... want to change the header of cookies
... which by default is not an option
AB: One thing which my apply to
SVG
... is the ability to send the information slowly
DS: Right, for resource doesn't
come through
... we talked this briefly in the web apps working group
... for tests that need special server configuration
... we need to let the systems team well ahead
... we are testing these features
... if we are going to have tests which are going to run server
side tests
... then they need to review that for performance and
security
... W3C and the systems team will accommodate these tests
... just need to be careful
... we just need to get in early
AB: People supported the idea of
sharing these server side scripts
... with other working groups
... reduces the effort required by systems team
... will avoid duplication and if you can create a test that
uses existing script
KK: Because the cost is so high
AB: It was about people not
having to waste time to create another test
... around that frame structure
DS: We want a cohesive web
platform
... Adobe made something similar to XHR which was post XHR but
before it was standardised
... that's the sort of problem we can avoid by adopting a
technology
KK: If you take a bet on a bleeding edge as your tests, you may get burned down the road?
DS: I'm taking about having tests
as part of the specification process
... there a some subtle things that tests will show up
... what I'm saying is since we'll be looking at tests
... we get a sanity check on the features
... we should document that
... in some obvious place
... so people can reproduce that
... maybe someone might find a flaw and help us correct
it
... W3C is examining what the role of tests are in the
group
... we don't want to do ISO conformance tests
KK: My point of view is that, if
working group create a lot of tests
... we run into these issues
... in terms of scale
... Paul says that XQuery had 18,000 cases, which is a lot of
tests
... so if working groups start to create a lot of tests
... these are problems that will come up
PD: Problems?
KK: Scale
... the SVG tests are about 4-500 you read the
description
... and run it
... it's not a big deal
PD: My question is interoperability the goal or testing the goal?
DS: Our tests are simply to test
the spec
... to test the spec is implementable
... W3C is looking at how we can best serve the web
... All I'm saying we don't know where we go with the tests,
but it looks like we are expanding the role of tests
PD: I'm trying to figure out the
size of those
... the level of coverage we want
... how much coverage
... maybe we just got to figure out where we want to go
AB: I think we need the coverage
to ensure the spec has interoperability
... The one other thing we had a discussion about
... was the approval process
... this really is on point on the discussion on size and
scale
... as the number of tests grows
... the burden on the working group to review the tests
... increase
... because it is more work to review the tests then create
it
... and there was discussion about ways to short cut the
process
... for example if all the implementations pass the test and
it's worng
... then it may mean that the spec should change
DS: We've run into this in the
past
... where we've found bugs in the spec
... because of the tests we were writing
... we understood the intent
... that's one of the benefits of early testing
PD: One thing about developing early is aligning tests with a set of statements in the spec
<shepazu> A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Clauses and its Applications -> http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html
AB: That was discussed briefly in
HTML and people concluded that they wouldn't try to associate
specific sections of the spec
... it is often convenient to look at different parts of the
spec for a test
PD: I'm talking more about having a rejection process rather than an acception process
AB: That's sort of the opposite
end of the scale
... assuming that the test is right until otherwise stated was
also talked about
... the problem with that model is you have a test suite of
uncertain quality
... which is the purpose of the test suite
... is to test the quality of the spec
... The other thing that people said
... if you start by saying that if all implementations
pass
... and spec is wrong
... what if 3 out of 4 pass
... and 4th one does what the spec says
... and the test is wrong compared to the spec
... how does that work
... and that is really where we left the discussion
... is 3 out of 4 a good metric to pass the test
PD: We've come across that before as well
KK: Even if it s approved
... there will be motivation to investigate that
... someone will check the test and spec
... the reality is the cost doesn't scale at all
... and it effects things in a bad way
PD: Was there is there any discussion about adding resources from interest groups?
KK: People say 150,000 tests, but
we'll see what happens right
... it takes time to make tests
... hopefully everyone contributes tests
... I think that's just peoples guess about number of tests
DS: You could probably do a
density test
... about conformance tests per page or assertion
PD: It's where they cross
boundaries
... and that's where the interoperability is
DS: I thought it might worth
while automating this
... and get the community to help review tests
... set up an infrastructure
... we're looking at how people can be part of W3C
... if we can crowd source in test review
... by providing incentives
... I think the percentage of people that would want to do
this
... is small
... because a lot of the time
... people will look at tests for tutorials
... for people doing development they are already looking at
these tests
... so in a way they are reviewing them
... if a lot of people say this test is wrong
... then we should look at it
... and there's the opposite end of the scale
PD: I think the benefit is
huge
... is this goal or actual?
DS: We didn't get much interest
from the browser vendors when we looked at this last year
... but my idea was to set up a portal for people to submit
tests
... since we have a large community it is a way of overcoming
the scaling problems
... This seems to be a good opportunity across the board
PD: So now you have built this up in SVG and I think Erik seems to like it
DB: One thing I wonder about is
if you're trying to crowd source reviewing for tests
... what are you reviewing for?
... there are a number of different things you are reviewing
for in tests
... this implementation is wrong, or the test is not testing
things correctly
... Depending on what you're reviewing for I'm somewhat
skeptical
... because it takes a lot of energy to review correctly
DS: Each test could have a thread
in forum
... for people to comment
... we want to interact as low as possible to begin with
... other people who know what they are doing can teach
people
... and if many people say this test is wrong
... then it would be flagged
PD: There are a number of people in the SVG community who examine the tests very well
KK: I think crowd testing works
if the work your asking for is simple
... complex things will not get done
... It'll required a lot of resources
DS: Just seeing what goes on in the SVG community has lead me to believe this might work
PD: Could be pilot in the SVG Working Group
DS: All I'm saying is there are
number of people in the community to probably have this run in
a forum
... we might not get anything out of it
... or it might turn into something we didn't expect
... Patrick, you seemed to like the idea
... so maybe we could pilot it
ED: We could test it to see
... if there is interest
KK: What problem are you trying to solve?
DS: Get more tests possibly, more
so sanity checking of the tests
... There have been times where the test has gone through the
review
... and then we've looked it later and said this test is
wrong
PD: John is going to help us get the transforms tests with help of Sandy and Anthony
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Talk with Patrick and Erik about crowd sourcing test reviewing and figure out how to set it up [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2897 - Talk with Patrick and Erik about crowd sourcing test reviewing and figure out how to set it up [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-12].
ED: Just curious about the strategy to take to write the tests
AB: The web apps working group is looking at using what has been established by the HTML working group
ED: I've looked at that
... and we are using the framework on two of the tests
KK: The belief in the HTML
working group is you can use these are reference tests
... I think SVG is really complicated in these
requirements
... with the reference tests
DS: Jonathan Watt has been looking at automating these tests as much as possible
ED: So we are already using techniques similar to ref tests in some of the tests
KK: CSS also has similar things
with their tests
... they have a hard time running the test suite
PD: Do we have a way to create an automatic testing harness with Canvas
DS: Where we are right now - we
are working on tests for SVG 1.1 2nd edition
... just cleaning up the spec that came out in 2001
... We have improved and included a lot of tests we had
originally
... not to make work for ourselves than we can handle
... it's meant to get everyone up to speed
... and then move on
... for SVG 2
... for the modules
... we see a large benefit of using the HTML working group
frame work
ED: Is there a process for
putting tests there?
... is that something we need to decide to do?
DS: We would like to port our tests over that framework
AG: So where do I stick the tests that we make for Transforms?
KK: So the new tests would be made in mercurial
PD: We should get a proposal on
what the categories for the spec are
... here is a functional area
... that makes a complete scenario
... and agree that these are the features that are ok
KK: If you want to do all the
tests at the end you have to pick chapters
... if you're not
... you're going to have pick a feature
PD: If you were to have tests on
transforms
... would you have tests on different features, like transforms
on video, shapes, etc
AB: You say things like, in order
to run these tests you need certain things to be
implemented
... lets not try and branch out too much on the
requirements
KK: If you always try to keep
your dependencies as low as possible then you don't run into
risks
... then build up on it later
<pdengler> RESOLUTION: Anthony continues writing CSS Transforms spec with tests, works with JohnJ and Sandro from MSFT to add more tests to the Mercurial server. In parallel, Doug, Erik and Patrick will explore sourcing resources through the community
<pdengler> ACTION: to: shepazu to start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
RESOLUTION: Anthony continues writing CSS Transforms spec with tests, works with JohnJ and Sandro from MSFT to add more tests to the Mercurial server. In parallel, Doug, Erik and Patrick will explore sourcing resources through the community
<pdengler> ACTION:shepazu to start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<pdengler> ACTION: shepazu to start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2898 - Start conversation with Simon Willison to understand how to kick start a wide sourcing project [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-12].
DS: I think there is value in having people go from the spec to the tests and the tests to the spec
AB: You're right it would be useful
<shepazu> A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Clauses and its Applications -> http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html
AB: but the maintenance would be expensive
DS: This is something that the
widgets web apps group came up with this methodology
... so that you could easily mark up the spec
... so you could easily find testable assertions
AG: Done this with compositing
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/compositing/master/Overview.html
DS: I wasn't suggesting that we
hard code links between tests and particular parts of the
spec
... just that there may be intermediary thing
... could be a manifest or index
... for tests to assertions
AB: Sure
... it would certainly be helpful
... and would be demonstrating to the director
... that you can map assertions and test cases
KK: Assertions seem like they are
the bare minimum
... in some cases you need to combine them
DS: I was going to suggest we
(SVG Working Group) consider adopting the assertion conformance
markup for we write specs
... or something along those lines
... and how we can approve the testing frame work
KK: For SVG 2 you will move to Mercurial?
DS: Yes
<shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html
DS: [gives history of integration spec]
<pdengler> ACTION: pdengler to help shepazu drive SVG "Integration" specification to editors draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2899 - Help shepazu drive SVG "Integration" specification to editors draft [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-11-12].
<ed> [break]
<pdengler> scribeNick: PDENGLER
pdengler: We have the updates
that were requested of us through various threads are being
delivered today, including renames
... I will work with Erik to get those deliverables to him
directly to make sure our renaming is done correctly
ed: Did this include a change to the implementation report page
pdengler: I am not sure it did,
but I will find out shortly
... Based upon where we landed, the minimal adjustments we
would want to make is a sort on test name to make it clearer to
developers which features were available across browsers
ed: Do you have the full run of IE9
pdengler: No, but le me get you a date, it shouldn't take that long.
ed: I've been going through the approved harness and fixing a bunch of issues. So some of the revision numbers are not correct (fixing reference images)
pdengler: Chris is still doing a handful of WOFF fixes still.
ed: Should we try to distirubte the actions to get them done more quickly
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
ed: We could discuss the filter bias property. Hardly any impelmentations do anything with this feature. And there is no test right now
<ed> ISSUE-2335?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2335 -- Last Call Comment: Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2335
ed: The issue is that it is not useful the way it is specified. But no one implements this yet.
actoin: anthony to investigate support for bias in cannon impelmentation
<scribe> ACTION: anthony to investigate support for bias in cannon impelmentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2900 - Investigate support for bias in cannon impelmentation [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-11-12].
ed: Proposal is to agree with the
discrepency and push the claridication/correction into SVG 2.0
depending upon Anthony's report
... (looking through LC issues)
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2340
ed: This one is already resolved
by ChrisL's check in.
... We would benefit from load balancing the remaining LC
issues
<scribe> ACTION: ed to send out reminder mails to resolve issues; consider establishing delivery dates [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2901 - Send out reminder mails to resolve issues; consider establishing delivery dates [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-11-12].
<ed> [lunchbreak]
<anthony> scribe: anthony
<scribe> scribeNick: anthony
PD: Are we going to be able to
land a set of specs and tests
... that says this is how CSS applies to SVG
... don't really care about how it's done
... but that's a goal in mind
ED: Yes
... that's the Integration specification
PD: If our deliverable is
Integration spec
... and we make any necessary updates as CSS integration is
done
... then I think it is a matter of setting dates
... that we have to be aggressive about
DS: I'm curious about being
realistic about things
... are there some deadlines that we have to meet?
... for example Tiny 1.2 ran to a hard deadline
... because of the JIS group wanted to standardise it
... and needed it to be done by Dec
... are there implementation hard deadlines
... I would like to know what the time lines are from the
different browser vendors
PD: Willing to add extra resources if that is want is needed
DS: Testing is a big task
PD: One thing I can help do at least is help people get through specs
PD: High level time frame is say
June 2011
... stable specs for Transforms 2D and 3D (CSS/SVG)
... Filters, Gradients (lower priority), Animations, SVG
Integration
JF: Our priority is 2D/3D Transforms and Gradients
PD: Anthony working on Transforms
and Gradients, Doug on Integration
... myself on Animation and Erik on Filters
DS: I am interested in animation
AG: We'll also have help from
other people in other groups as well
... Dino, Simon Frazer
DS: I would also really like to
have Adobe in on the conversations about Animation as
well
... and I'm concerned about is having the authoring tools
AG: It would be good to have Alex D in the discussions as well
DS: And Vincent Hardy
... I want to have some concept of state in animation
... If I say have a button and I would like to have two
different things happen depending on if it is on or off
... Just some simple concept of state
<pdengler> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-SVGCompositing-20090430/
AG: SVG Compositing is ready to
go
... so may as well do it as well
DS: I'm really concerned with the DOM
ED: Me too
... it's on my top list
DS: The DOM is very inefficient
ED: I'm interested in the
simplifications
... to make it easier to use
AG: Similar to uDOM?
ED: More so about simplifying base value
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Simple_SVG_API
DS: I don't want to bother with
insertAt
... like if you don't give it anything it just appends it
<pdengler> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/images/6/64/SVGCSSTPAC.pdf
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM
PD: On page 6
... there's the puts
ED: One of the things suggested already
PD: Only trick is that it returns
a string when you query the base value
... it returns it a string
... the only issue is if you use the set-er you have to change
the unit type
... so if I set the string with rect = px then you have to make
it to be that
ED: Depending on what you get as
the input
... there is a function like that
... for me it's more about aligning with the DOM core
... it is easy and left the old ones as aliases
... we had to add more code to do the array syntax
PD: I would love to have this as something we solve
DS: We should remember we have
Cameron in the group
... and he is good with the IDL stuff
PD: I would like to add the DOM fixes to that urgent push
AG: Could probably get Cameron to do that if he's interested
DS: I'd be interested as well
PD: What's the work?
ED: Not much work I think
PD: Whatever work needs to be
done or think needs to be done
... should ask him if he thinks it could be done
... I'm thinking about if people can code against the HTML DOM
will be able to code against the SVG DOM
<Hyeonsoo> las
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Coordinate with Cameron to scope SVG DOM simplifications and establish a spec with a delivery date [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2902 - Coordinate with Cameron to scope SVG DOM simplifications and establish a spec with a delivery date [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-11-12].
ED: Only concern I guess is we
will be done with 1.1
... and we will have to add the dates to the charter
... How long does the charter have to go?
DS: 2 years
<tbah> How does one call in?
<tbah> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/MESH/Mesh.html
TB: Link to a webpace I've
prepared
... The motivation method is they are useful to producing
vector art
... and we also get discussions similar to this on the mailing
list
... there are 4 types
... gradients I could find
... they are listed
... [goes through different gradient types in paper]
... we've been talking through mostly coons patch
gradients
... one thing you can do with coons patch gradients
... is emulate other gradients
... There's a four point coons patch gradient
... couldn't find anywhere this is used thought
... One thing I noticed looking on the web, is the patches are
always done with a rectangular grid
... One problem is you can fold it on top of itself
... and so if you have a sharp turn in curve and it has
transparency
... could be problems
... so putting this in SVG is defining how you would render
this
... each patch shares two colours and one bezier path
... you can zig-zag your patches along
... existing SVG gradients there are linear and radial
... and they have stops
... which doesn't really fit with coons patches
... because the colours are defined in the corners
... The mesh is defining the shape of the object
CL: You could use the shape as a clipping path
TB: You could do that
... but they are not used like that in the wild
... you're interested in taking the grid and deforming it to
fit with a shape
... essentially it already is being self clipped
... There is one case where you would want to fill it an
object
... and that's when you would do that with conical
gradients
... You set up a rectangular grid
... It seems like a good idea to set up the gradient like a
grid
... Illustrator seems to do this as well
... So go along the rows
... which define the sides and colours
... in the corners
... The coon patches are defined in terms of bezier
curves
... Could use other paths
... and use approximations to bezier curves
... I've listed there one possible syntax
... Divide and conquer method could be used to render it
... There is an experimental Cairo implementation that
implements this
... using Forward-rasterize
... Jasper replied back with some comments
... he gave me an example
... where you have a gradient
... and you map those using a transform function
... to a mesh gradient
CL: On the top left patch
... you have to have 3 points on subsequent squares
... just wondering how this would work if you animated it
... or edited it through script
DS: It almost seems there is some relationship between tiling and super paths
TB: I'm not sure it's something
you would animate
... It's quite a bit a work, and why you'd want to animate
it
DS: If you gave this to David
Daley he'd animate it
... because he looks for cool stuff
... If someone had a particular goal in mind
... We do have consider animation
... One concern I have is with conflating the paint sever with
the mechanices
... of the shapes
... the actual geometry of the shape
... One thing I don't like about Diffusion Curves
... if you look at the lines that are being defined
... there's no shape you are clicking on
s/mechanices/mechanics/
TB: You do have the outer bezier curve defining the shape
AG: I think any gradient
extensions we add should be a paint server
... otherwise you break the model
CL: I can imagine that ball
effect you have there
... with the lighting
... that you'd want to animate that
TB: Getting this drawn is a lot
time by hand
... I can understand what you want to do and it would be great
if you could do that
... most people are not going to do these things by hand
... I wanted to do something more complicated than sphere
... just didn't have more time
DS: I think it's great you spent
the time in putting this together
... The first image I looked at made me think they are
limited
TB: I wasn't able to do
complicated drawings
... but you can find complicated examples of their usage on the
web
<tbah> http://www.khulsey.com/adobe_illustrator_gradient_mesh.html
CL: I means that the authoring
tool is needed to do this
... because if you pick up a point
... you'll need the tool to move other points
TB: You could animate it
... but it is not trivial
<ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phong-shading-sample.jpg
CL: Did you see anyone using
phong shading meshes instead
... If you follow the link there
... you'll see the same mesh using two different methods
<ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading
CL: the phong shading is much
smother
... because you are interpolating the normals
... the reason that came up and we tried using tri-mesh
... using Gourand shading
... and it didn't look smooth
s/smother/smoother/
scribe: It's used a lot in 3D
(Gourand) shading
... as a step up from wire frame
... then you apply phong shading and it looks real
... which means there is hardware support for both
... The coons patches are cool but they are all done in an
authoring tool
... and then rendered in software
TB: A triangle mesh you could animate each point
CL: The Triangle mesh proposal I made in terms of animation was easy to animate
<ChrisL> coons patches are on the cairo to-do list
TB: So animating triangles is kind of a problem
<ChrisL> http://cairographics.org/todo/
CL: I see Coons patches are on the Cairo to-do list
TB: Yes
... it's experimental at the moment
... and there are a couple of examples they have there
... might not be the best implementation
... but there is at least a sample
ED: From analysing this, did you look at what PDF are doing with this?
TB: Yes, PDF and postscript are
doing something exactly the same
... and you can add on a new patch one at a time
... you can zig-zag them back and forth
ED: Well where do we want to go with this?
CL: The question is it supported
by libraries
... and does it give us what we want
... My concern is it requires an authoring tools as well
<jun> other method - http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/~tianxia/pdfs/imgvect_preprint.pdf
TB: Animations aside, using this method you can produce life like images
AG: There are other methods out
there to produce life like images as well
... such as Diffusion Curves
TB: Looks like they are doing triangle beziers on the side
AG: I think it is worth having some use case and requirements
JF: We should study available
methods
... some methods can be used on a wide range of images
... and some methods can be applied to a particular type of
image
... so we need to know the requirement
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<scribe> ACTION: Tavmjong to Work with Tab Atkins on gradient extensions use case and requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2903 - Work with Tab Atkins on gradient extensions use case and requirements [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-11-12].
ED: Thanks Tav for doing the work
<ChrisL> scribe: ChrisL
cl: problem was shrinking below
critical mass, too few members to do the work
... and also not knowing that going to LC means we had to go to
CR and PR, not PER
... lots of work n 1.1SE test suite, much better, but was this
the best time to do it
ds: inevitable the way it
happened, microsoft was not prepared to be takling 2 for
excample, so focus was on 1.1
... now we have a broad interop o 1.1 features, so optimal time
to move to svg 2
... we have buy-in now
cl: great to have cam back
erik: yes, you can see commits from cam as soon as he came back
cl: spoke to suresh about wildfox joining svg wg
(discussion on assorted svg-related hiring opportunities we notice)
ds: moving to one telcon a week,
proposed by heycam
... but need to be more active on the list
Resolved: one telcon a week on Thursday
ag: happy to be an hour earlier, may be better for patrick too
erik, chris: better for us
ag: ok for heycam?
... better in nz
proposed: one hour earlier for svg
<scribe> ACTION: erik to mail wg proposing new time [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2904 - Mail wg proposing new time [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-11-12].
(discussion on svg meeting in tokyo co-located with css wg meeting in June 2011)
ed: need to get milestone dates for the next charter, so we need to decide on priorities
ds: will put those dates in the charter
ed: don't want svg 2 to be a 1.3 with minimal changes
ds: animation will be better
ed: great, but nt really a new
feature
... the name has already stuck
ag: will have new stuff in it
ed: don't mind if there are many
new modules and svg2 is a good feature set, moving modules
ahead at their own page
... at soe point we still need to group the together
ag: though we said a year afte rthat, so June 2012
s/soe/some/
<anthony> s/afte rthat/after that/
cl: modules move based on their effort, degree of developer interest, and trest suite status
s/what i typed/what I meant/
ds: are we going to include modules byreference or by inclusion?
cl: joint specs, so we clearly need to do it by reference
(discussion on how best to reftest features like filters; how to avoid platform differences in text antialiasing etc)
action chris to add Helder missed issues to LC tracker
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2905 - Add Helder missed issues to LC tracker [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-12].
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0009.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0014.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0015.html
first one is about changes. but next publication will list changes since last (LC) publication
we need a good and complete list of changes between the last /TR publication and the next one
<scribe> ACTION: chris to respond to Helger to explain that changes appendix is relative to last published version [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2906 - Respond to Helger to explain that changes appendix is relative to last published version [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-12].
not clear how to edit in place the first edition to give dated links
<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVG11-20030114/ecmascript-binding.html
<scribe> ACTION: chris to talk to comm team anout editing in place svg 1.1 first edition to absolutize some undated links to ecmascript appendix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html#action12]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2907 - Talk to comm team anout editing in place svg 1.1 first edition to absolutize some undated links to ecmascript appendix [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-12].
his third comment is a test case typo. not a lc issue. we fix it live in the meeting
adjourned
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/where/were/ Succeeded: s/of the test/of the tests/ Succeeded: s/using things similar to ref tests/using techniques similar to ref tests in some of the tests/ FAILED: s/mechanices/mechanics/ FAILED: s/smother/smoother/ FAILED: s/soe/some/ Succeeded: s/page/pace/ Succeeded: s/though/thought/ FAILED: s/afte rthat/after that/ FAILED: s/what i typed/what I meant/ Found Scribe: anthony Inferring ScribeNick: anthony Found ScribeNick: anthony Found ScribeNick: PDENGLER Found Scribe: anthony Inferring ScribeNick: anthony Found ScribeNick: anthony Found Scribe: ChrisL Inferring ScribeNick: ChrisL Scribes: anthony, ChrisL ScribeNicks: anthony, PDENGLER, ChrisL Present: Doug Erik Krisk anthony Adrian Patrick Jun Hyeon Found Date: 05 Nov 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/05-svg-minutes.html People with action items: anthony chris doug ed erik pdengler shepazu tavmjong to[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]