See also: IRC log
<sandro> dd: 2005 network of offices
<sandro> dd: PSI directive in EU
<sandro> dd: JoseMa ctic had funding to start this activity
<sandro> dd: document sept 2005, me and rigo
<sandro> dd: 2007 asturias workshop to launch activity/group
<sandro> dd: internet governance forum, PSI directive, a lot of resources
<sandro> dd: workship in Vilnius, 3 weeks ago
<sandro> dd: culture of some countries, to keep info closed.
<sandro> dd: tried to get bicycle accident info for my town in France
<sandro> dd: they're sending it on paper
<sandro> dd: !
<sandro> karen: in W3C we're normally pulled; in this case it seems like push -- govts are often very resistant.
<sandro> karen: A few weeks ago, Tim was invited to speek at Harvard, Kennedy School
<sandro> karen: Mostly older professors, steeped in govt history
<sandro> karen: ... but they didn't even know basic things, eg twitter
<sandro> karen: ... some folks had a nice openness to understand
<sandro> karen: ... push that has to get done
<sandro> karen: Where can W3C focus?
<scribe> scribenick: Karen
Sandro review eGov IG Note published
Organized in five main topics
1. Participation and Cititzen Engagement
key point to allow public servants to use public Web sites
http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/
<sandro> these slides: http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1101-egov/
Sandro: this document points out things that planners need to understand
may be obious to some, but not to those who are new
Rigo: tax declaration system in
France
... challenge with massive scaling in gov't sector
... can overwhelm your servers
Roger Cutler: you should talk to the "Dancing with the Stars" show
scribe: they had public voting
that overwhelmed the system
... not sure what they did to overcome it
Rigo: Cloud computing is so
important to eGov
... so you can start small and scale quickly
... private industry support will be important
Sandro: traditional mechanisms of
getting comments from the public have not scaled in the
past
... Web makes it easier for public to comment on public
policies
2. Participation and Engagement Issues
Sandro: challenges for what gov't
employees can and cannot do; what roles and persona they may
take on
... how to use social networking
... what are fora for asking authoritative questions
... data portability; archiving
... lots of big questions
Second big issues was Open Gov't Data
scribe: this section was written
1.5 years ago
... not particularly focused about various technologies
Karen: one reason for that was main message was "please use standard technologies in gov't
and also many different levels of experience regarding use of Semantic Web technologies, XML, HTML, etc.
Sandro: other issues are limitations of gov't employees to participate
Third Part was Interoperability
scribe: concept of
interoperability in time
... big thing is using open standards
Rigo: EU Interoperability
Framework uses a definition
... that fits W3C pretty well
... but other groups did not
... took lobbyists a couple years to get that off the
agenda
... We fit the EIF1 definition of Open Standards
Sandro: another technique is to use open source to promote interoperability
Roger: Why? I don't understand it
Rigo: let me explain that from a
larger perspective
... EU point of view since I was involved in work here
... For example one village acquired some development
software
... then made it open source
... the mayors of various cities would meet and describe same
problem
... and suggested they use open source solution
... this was a strong trend
... so they realized they could tailor things more
effectively
... so it built the rumor that open source is good with
eGov
Roger: so it has nothing to do with interoperability
Rigo: correct; there is a large understanding that open source meant to these towns and villages to get things done
Jim: non-technical people don't
understand difference
... between open standards and open source
... some of non-technical people include the high-level policy
makers
... don't know difference between open standards and open
source
... As Roger pointed out, it's a myth
... if you allow customization, it's a virtue
... but it pushes against interoperability
... it's a complicated question
... has to be looked at on a case by case basis
... We should make the case about open standards
Sandro: in this report there is a page and a half on open standards and a little on open source
Roger: I think W3C should not
endorse open source vs. vendor products
... there are real problems with open source
Jim: really not a question about
open source
... I am responsible for open source and open standards across
HP
... no gov't could decide only to buy proprietary
... it's a development methodology, not an alternative to open
standarads
s/standards
Rigo: the big fight is about what
is open
... after EIF shifted their definition
... like example of CRM being relabeled identity
management
... then everything became "open" term
... "open" now meaningless because it's the latest cool
term
... everybody claims to be open
... but maybe we should develop criteria for that
<sandro> rigo: Everybody claims to be open now
Roger: and we have something called "Open Spirit" a proprietary software
Vagner Diniz: it's not wrong to say we can find more friendly people
scribe: among open standards
rather than proprietary community
... idea is not to advocate open source
... but we should advocate open standards
... in terms of awareness we can find more friendly people in
the open source community; they are more helpful for us
Daniel: open source and open
standards are not the same, yes
... Open source people do like us because we give them open
standards which are free
... whether or not open source is good in and of itself
... as a way to develop software
... free software
... is a philosophy
... sharing programming is hard
... some W3C people come from this community
... saying it's just a development methodology may offend
some
Gautier Poupeau: different question with exposed data
scribe: we can make
interoperability with data
... and open source data
... but that is not the key point
Roger: I was just commenting on promoting interoperability and open source
Rigo: It's a how on promoting
eGov and open data
... open source is often used as a pre-cursor with low
investment development
... before doing a commercial product
... there is this aspect that leads to this kind of assertion,
but we have to disambiguate the assertion
Jim: I think this is a good
topic; we are not wasting time
... It is true the open source and open standards community
overlap
... maybe a stepping pointt
... is what people really want is royalty free
... RAND is the default rather than W3C RF
... open source can be misleading
... it is under a license
... HP supports 600 licensees
s/licenses
scribe: to really follow all
those and administrate them is big
... cannot just take your program and hand it to the people in
the next village
... In terms of Linked Data
... there have been contraints
... one of major ones is Privacy
... EU has stricter rules
... Different and sometimes conflicting rules about tracking,
destroying storing data
... Identity for some is heart of security
... different ways to protect identity will show up
... many issues will face on open source side
Roger: Open source is also not
risk free
... why organizations like mine feel good about use of W3C
standards because they are relatively risk fee
... they have been rung out and vetted
... there are may patent trolls
[Roger describes example of patent vulnerability in open source]
scribe: I think open source is
big risk for a company like ours
... risk factors from W3C are very different from Open
Source
Harry Halpin: I am working in social and identity space for W3C
scribe: we are trying to follow
US gov't work
... I would be interested in hearing from people
... Identity is important to eGov
... and it's historically an area of patents
... Going back to 1998, P3P
... importance of RF standards
... we need to identify areas that are crucial
... there are vastly different requirements
... and make sure baseline core standards are RF
... and can be implemented
... a bit of a weakness; so I'm interested to hear what eGov
people think of the identity space
Daniel: what I have been looking
at for eGov
... is about access
... you want what you have paid for back
... I don't want my identity in this process
... I want to make use of the data I paid for
... not interaction with gov't that I paid my tax
... but another eGov platform area
Harry: there is another realm of applications for clinical health records that needs identity assurance
Roger: there is something
here
... thinking about the person who asked Daniel for his physical
address
... perhaps people are unwilling to send something that could
be altered electronically
... our company still sends me PDFs to sign and send back
... because they don't trust it
... there is a huge element of not just making technology
work
... but getting people to understand that it does work and get
them to trust
Rigo: I have been involved in EU
since 1995
... today you can do ID electronically
... but IT guys saw business opportunity
... but it doesn't take into account the user
Jim: coming back to patents
... W3C is not immune from patent trolls
... trolls can also attack W3C standards
... but you want someone to back it up
... and Open Source community is not set up to provide that
guarantee
... on the other side
... Open Source benefits from thorough W3C vetting
... and many eyes on code are best way to find flaws on code or
algorim
... so even though Open Source is exposed, it may be more
secure due to number of people using it
Sandro: Last topic in report was
interoperability frameworks
... I was not sure about this
Rigo: I can give a short presentation about that
Sandro: how about two sentences
Rigo: We have a large discussion
about this topic with EU
... they developed a framework
... EU is not like US Federal gov't
... from inside EU , it's still 27 countries cooperating
... focus on how those gov'ts send messages to each other
... it is a big area needing procedures
... needed to understand data
... They started to exchange XML Schema
... each gov't had its own schema store
... Questions about which models to use, how to find them
... For example, we may give local, regional or nat'l gov'ts
information
... about what others due
... European Interoperabilty Framework (EIF)
... was developed
... same people who developed the open standards
definition
... I did an interoperabilty analysis for egov for them
... I came up with three levels we take into account
... First is syntactical; exchange of XML schema
... second one is semantic
... still have procedural constraints
... so has to be procedural interoperability
... and this is hardest to do
... Current frameworks only touch on schema
interoperability
... Linked Open data is a large test on whether we can achieve
interoperability on intra and inter-gov't data
... It's for them a concrete problem how to exchange data
between them
... have constraints
... just cannot send things from one dept to another
... gov't has to constrain itself
... there are walls
... this interoperability frameworks touches on them
... also touches on rules for procurement
... Procurement is an important level for gov'ts to achieve
what they want
... versus what the vendors want
Jim: I think the term
interoperability frameworks is a high-level term, like
APIs
... would be a mistake to read too much into it
... somehow exchange data
... I am chair of board of the Open Group
... 50 states had data set up differently for example
... they got together to develop a common framework
... so applications sold to schools could use that same
framewok
... in that case it's an XML framework
... simple, does the job
... for good or ill, it has been put in legislation as a matter
of law
... works well enough that other places are starting to
implement it as well
... Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF)
<sandro> "Schools Interoperability Framework"
Jim: We can talk about them, but need to speak more generally
Roger: So I am hearing that interoperabilty farmework is a rationalization of open standards
Jim: developed from Microsoft
Karen Burns: I am queen of interoperabilty framework for New Zealand gov't
scribe: from end to end,
procurement, how we use tech
... I have to transform siloed agencies to collaborate
... globally these things have been focused on technical
standards
... if it's open it reduces my cost
Roger: I would call it information architecture
Karen: for us it wraps everything together
Sandro: What I heard IF is the way you cross the silos
Karen: policy, standards,
processes
... things are maturing now
... I am playing now in the transformational side
... legal and policies to change things
Gautier: I think there are
different levels for interoperability
... Semantic Web is an interoperabilty framework
... Rigo explained that it's more semantic global
... we have to explain this different lower level
... of frameworks
... for example, first you have RDF, the OWL
Sandro: There are different ways of breaking that down
Daniel: so regarding
interoperability
... I found a license I would have to sign
... to use this software
... license is asking me, if I have an application
... based on data the gov't gave me
... that whenever the gov't updates the data
... then I have to update my site
... so that's how far we go into interoperability
... if you operate something you have to do it well
... It does not prevent that you have to use open standards
Rigo: We had that problem
... for a very long time I was lobbying to have laws
free online
scribe: From Journal
Officiel
... they got commercial entitty
... prepared ready to go database on a military service
... and just by doing this they earned 6 million francs per
year
... If your application doesn't reflect the law
... so they must force you to update your stuff
Daniel: if not interoperabilty
through open standard
... one day for another they could switch XML syntax
Sandro: So one question
... what is the difference between interoperability and open
gov't data?
Rigo: There is a large overlap
Karen: that is a whole other discussion
Rigo: Take the UK example of when
they released tons of data
... they correlated the crime and geolocation data
... also complaint data
... local mayors and villages
... in areas where you had an idiot who complained a lot
... the price of your house was half what it was before
... because people were thinking it was a bad area
... from complaints about noise or theft
Roger: in a highly regulated
industry, we must provide gov't with a lot of data
... mixed up with gov't standards
Sandro: A clear definition for interoperabilty
Emanuelle: I see it around
domains
... a certain level of interoperabilty to exchange in a bounded
domain
... have to define constraints that are domain specific
Gautier: there are other
issues
... like archiving
... Private data
... you have to have data to think about archiving it, even if
not public
... yet have to think about archiving issues
... have to think about interoperability of data in data
preservation
Yosueke: We are talking about
Interoperabilty Frameworks and Interoperabilty
... IF is broader term
... covers mapping and procedural aspects
... there is also possibility to extend interoperabilty
... semantics, culture are different
... can exchange data
... IF is something will be the premise for
... cooperatively working with gov't
Daniel: What I have seen in past
couple of years
... with work TimBL is doing
... more on policy side
... gov't making data open for free
... assumption of geeks is we will make something out of the
data
... there is a change in spirit
... do something useful and we will make sense of it
... there is a change I think
Vagner: interoperability is more
realted to policy, rules, architecture that provide conditions
to data exchange or application exchagne
... Open data is one way to faiclitate interoperability; not
the only way
Jim: Looking down stream, I think the term open data
<sandro> Vagner-br: open data as one way to get interoperablity
Jim: is going to lead to
problems
... may interpret it as public data
... in Norway, open public data is what their individual income
and taxes are
... may not be the same with other gov'ts
... we will need to have terminolofy that people will
understand clearly
... if people around this table are having trouble with
distinctions
... the legislators and public will have trouble, too
Karen: second that
Sandro: In the IG note they define open gov't data and public sector info as synonymous
Rigo: yes
... I would not overload the term
... what we mean is this is data that you can get from the
gov't without forcing them by court
... we can extend in light of Daniel's experience
... we may mean it's in digital format
... and avoid the paper route
... which they are capable of doing
... so I think it's what is available publicly
Daniel: public sector info is not the same thing as open data
Roger: I just did some Google
searches
... I convinced myself that interoperability framework
... does not have a widely accepted defnition
... first reference is to the Estonian Interoperability
Framework
Rigo: That is not surprising; the Estonians and Austrians were the first in this area
Roger: suggest that you define it clearly
Karen: it means nothing right now
Rigo: a catch-all
Daniel: One remark is that eGov
activity
... reminds of beginning of WAI
... it was clear that we needed several groups
... Education and Outreach to agree on terms
... technical groups, one of access
... keep in mind that the education and outreach was one of the
first ones
... we need to have some kind of group to deal with that task
force
Sandro: so about five minutes
before break
... one more slide on interoperability
... we have raised many of them
... Go quickly through next two
4. Multi-channel delivery
scribe: providing services
through multiple channels
... from f2f and phone to web and mobile
... issues were about really understanding the requirements of
the consumer
... mobile devices are limited
... coordination of the different channels
... so you don't provide different levels of service on
different channels
... and Accessibilty
Fifth Item is Identification and Authentication
scribe: allows confidence in
transactions
... but "lack of coherent analogies to the forms and protocols
that have endured for centuries"
... notion of fair rsk allocation and risk
... gov't may think it controls id authentication but
cannot
... Finally, next steps
... It was an active group at the time document was
written
... Spirit of enthusiasm to help gov't transition
... Focus on Linked Data
... and look at data provenance issues
... The actual next steps for IG
... unless something changes
... will run as more low-level
... meeting 1 to 2x a month
... with speakers; more like a seminar
... coming out of these topics
... Hoping to get your input on topics
... of interest to you; or ones you may be willing to speak
about
... maybe that will draw a new community and do a new veresion
of these reports
... Let's take a break in 30 minutes
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