HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

09 Sep 2010


See also: IRC log


Cynthia_Shelly, Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich, dsinger, Marco_Ranon, Steve_Faulkner
Laura_Carlson, Martin_Kliehm, Kenny_Johar, Sylvia_Pfeiffer, Denis_Boudreau


<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 09 September 2010

<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<scribe> scribenick: oedipus

Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

<MikeSmith> action-57?

<trackbot> ACTION-57 -- Paul Cotton to provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/57

MS: don't think paul will be on today's call

<MikeSmith> action-57 due 2010-09-16

<trackbot> ACTION-57 Provide background keyboard support for drag and drop (3 weeks) due date now 2010-09-16

JS: concerned about some lagging actions around drag and drop and accesskey in terms of closing out bugs by 1 October 2010 as determined by the HTML WG chairs

MS: bug open on drag and drop
... don't know about accesskey/access-*

<MikeSmith> action-54?

<trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/54


<trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/54

JF: Judy needs to get clarification from NCAM -- want to use materials as part of test suite

<MikeSmith> action-47?

<trackbot> ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 -- due 2010-09-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47

JF: discussed in yesterday's Media subteam telecon

MS: not sure if SteveF has completed action item -- filed a large number of ARIA bugs

<MikeSmith> action-28 due 2010-09-16

<trackbot> ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list due date now 2010-09-16

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix (been up since 2010-07-29)


action-28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28

funneling public feedback to the HTML Accessibility Task Force


chairs recommend use of public-pfwg-comments list as stated in work statment, but that list is for feedback on PFWG deliverables

GJR: believe that Janina and MCooper suggest that public-html-a11y should be used instead

JS: wrong place for TF members -- confounds PFWG's ability to track formal responses to PF work; want to open up public-html-a11y to public posting so that if someone needs to address TF, can send to public-html-a11y -- arguments both pro and con
... rammification of using public-html-a11y -- people won't receive follow-up; could be flooded with email; prolliferation of responses
... on other hand, need mechanism other than bugzilla to have technical discussions

<JF> +q

JS: simple point of clarification that can be responded to quickly -- encourage some to join public-html-a11y to work on issues

JF: isn't part of A11y TF req that one has to be member of HTML WG and the W3C patent policy
... if not members, have to CC on response

MC: 1 of primary reasons didn't make list publically writable initially

GJR: notes that bugzilla is the culprit when it comes to proliferation of posts

JF: don't want public-html-a11y to be a "catch-all" place where people expect responses

MS: non-members cannot post to list; could monitor them, but that is a burden
... other list can be used -- www-style list for technical discussions open to public, for example

<dsinger_> Trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, start meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

MS: 1st need to figure out if what we are doing now is broken -- if not, don't change
... wanted HTML WG members to be more involved in TF -- allowing them to post to TF list without being part of TF doesn't give incentive to join

JS: but then they are cut off from the discussion/threads

MS: what is problem - does it need fixing?
... some people sent cross-posted emessages to public-html and public-html-a11y -- threat of starting 2 threads -- not recommended that post to both public-html and public-html-a11y
... if post message to a member list and a public list, those reading message on member list reply only to member list
... solution is not to cross post -- restrict to one list or another

GJR: but public-html-a11y is publically reviewable
... people can use archive to keep up on threads and review responses

<dsinger_> Trackbot,

<trackbot> Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

<dsinger_> Trackbot, prepare telcon

<trackbot> Sorry, dsinger_, I don't understand 'Trackbot, prepare telcon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

CS: 2 thoughts: 1) reason don't have separate public comments list; 2) tweak reply-to header to include poster

MS: can we change the headers?

MC: think so, but not sure

MS: will check into header tweaking through admin interface

JS: more we talk about this, the more i find my mind changing --

<dsinger_> trackbot, prepare telcon

JS: problem may just be guidance -- don't want posting to public-pfwg-comments -- we could use wai-xtech@w3.org

MS: not sure necessary for people to send comments to the public-html-a11y -- a lot of people think have too many mailing lists already
... TF is intended to answer to PFWG and HTML WG -- not ment to be a public facing group that people expect they can comment to

CS: if have existing low volume list, that would make sense

MC: catch-22 problem with wai-xtech -- used for many different purposes; no formal way at moment to separate threads -- if someone wants to monitor, could be an option

CS: unlikely that comments on HTML5 will get lost on wai-xtech

JF: members of HTML WG should be able to post to HTML A11y TF -- if HTML WG members want/need advice, they should be able to post to public-html-a11y

JS: can mail support member of PFWG and HTML WG?

MC: allowing anyone in HTML WG to post to public-html-a11y not so easy

CS: change bounce message with instructions on how to get post posted to public-html-a11y

MC: doesn't require approval, but does require processing
... extended invitation to HTML WG several times

JF: goal -- get things done right -- if HTML WG member wants to query HTML A11y TF and engage in dialog, should be able to do so

CS: 1) give HTML WG posting permissions to pubilc-html-a11y or make clear why bounce happening

<scribe> ACTION: MikeSmith - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-09-16].

<MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2010-09-16].

MS: can do a copy and paste of email addresses - have categories of mailing lists: subscriber (receive mail) accept list (not subscribed but allowed to post to it) -- might have to effect change manually, but can do that

media subteam update

<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist

JF: user reqs piece done; distilled down into a table "Media Accessibility Checklist" have to go through user reqs and match to existing technologies -- basically need to figure out what technologies are impacted by different reequirements
... captioning section: 1 user req is "render time synchronized cues..." -- API issues, user preferences, rendering (visual/audio/textual)
... tag user reqs to reorder and reshift based on technology reqs
... huge need to get this done for yesterday -- media subteam committed to knuckle down, but need specific feedback from non-subteam members
... even if only have 15 minutes, please consult http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist and tag with a11y requirements; goal is to complete over weekend so can discuss at TF telecon next week

<Stevef> hello

JF: browsers waiting on us also looking at timeline to integrate into browsers; urgency comes from fact that UA devs will be shortly supporting multimedia components of HTML5 and we need to provide them with the reqs and advice
... if don't have time to edit wiki, put into email and send to JF

RS: people reviewing ATAG 2.0 currently; took me a long time to process checklist

JF: not a trivial task, but an essential one -- time constraints outside our control, but if don't complete, we will be left standing on the station

DS: CSS WG meeting a few weeks ago; pointed out talked about doing media queries to deliver appropriate media -- try to resurrect idea -- will make sure mention Media Queries in new charter

RS: continue work begun with DS on this?

DS: not necessary; will follow up in CSS WG

JF: could you or someone from CSS WG take some time to look at matrix to ascertain what can be handled by CSS

DS: read reqs document over weekend -- there was one obvious one that jumped out at me; will tag on wiki page

JS: presentation to wider group torpedoed by VOIP problems; rescheduled to discuss in next hour's telecon
... will present media reqs on HTML WG telecon today
... important that user reqs should not be assumed by wider group -- will ask if something there that shouldn't be there or if something is missing that should be there -- don't want to conflate the 2 issues
... now is time to speak of user reqs - take-away: this is reqs list against which we are engineering
... might be useful for this TF to vote on media requirements list -- subteam thinks has gotten feedback from whole TF, but may want to log a formal resolution recommending the media a11y reqs

GJR: would a CfC be appropriate

MS: need to know from media subteam if there is anything else other than what you outlined -- everyone please look at reqs and ensure that nothing is missing

ARIA mappings subteam update

SF: email to public-html with bugs and responses (rejected or accepted)

<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/thread.html#msg87

SF: mapping team identified non-controversial issues; others we need to discuss -- haven't had meeting for a few weeks, but will meet next week to discuss outstanding issues we need to respond to

MS: gotten chairs' attention on this; MJS been very responsive recently
... if have delays, let me know and i'll try to expedite

canvas update

MS: status?

RS: nothing new -- as said in last call we have proposal, but feel that hixie is giving us the run-around; focusing on ARIA integration right now - have someone working to resolve issues, once resolved, will return to canvas

MS: chairs announced timeline (deadline to log bugs is 2010-10-01)

RS: lets get ARIA thing done first; editorial things on ARIA side to help -- still areas of tension which need to be resolved

JS: discussed last week in terms of next steps: what will caret drawing API entail?
... discussed in leadership meeting with chairs, so is on their radar

RS: can also look at apple's proposal about UI events



RS: privacy concern: exposing specific AT to browser may compromise user
... would like Cynthia to look at this
... device indepent access on mobile devices less dependent on keystrokes

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JulSep/att-0006/UserInterfaceIndependence.html Zakim User Interface Independence for Accessible Rich Internet Applications

drag and drop

RS: gez travelling and on vacation

<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7721

SF: question: is HTML5 dnd implemented in most browsers?
... is it implemented accessibly anywhere
... underscores issue

MS: huge interoperability problem
... if want to use HTML5 dnd willhave hard time getting to work across multiple browsers
... hard to know how to fix to get to work interoperably

<kliehm> D&d is implemented but broken in most browsers, particularly the event model

MS: need a fix

RS: proposal from apple includes device independent drag and drop http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JulSep/att-0006/UserInterfaceIndependence.html

GJR: refers to previous discussions and work on dnd

RS: apple's proposal needs to be examined from dnd perspective; idea is UA would determine gestures or keystrokes to execute drag and everything else; selection to drag needs work

GJR: since there isn't a copy and paste API in HTML5, either one needs to be added or the workflow for ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5 -- that was the end result of gez' investigation





JS: clarification on HTML WG bug freeze -- 1 October 2010 -- lends urgency to our efforts

GJR: should i file http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs as a bug or as an issue (need/requirements for verbose descriptor)

MS: decision policy doesn't provide us with way to directly escalate something to be an issue -- can provide spec text itself for consideration
... issue is that long descriptor isn't addressed in spec at all now -- will put on next week's agenda

JS: will add to agenda for discussion next week


Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: MikeSmith - ascertain if can allow posting to public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/09/09 16:17:29 $

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Succeeded: s/has done that/has completed action item/
Succeeded: s/ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5/ARIA dnd needs to be adapted by HTML5 -- that was the end result of gez' investigation/
Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Mike, +44.207.391.aabb, Cynthia_Shelly, dsinger, Rich
Present: Cynthia_Shelly Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina John_Foliot Michael_Cooper Mike Rich dsinger Marco_Ranon Steve_Faulkner
Regrets: Laura_Carlson Martin_Kliehm Kenny_Johar Sylvia_Pfeiffer Denis_Boudreau
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0229.html
Found Date: 09 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: - allow ascertain can if mikesmith posting

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