See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Doyle
<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor
Top o' the morning Andrew! :-)
oops I see no Shawn, are you chair?
Thanks Andrew, got Jennifer is a regret.
Morning Shadi, and Wayne!
<scribe> Chair: Shadi
Shadi: We have a big agenda today.
Shadi: Andrew has continued to
incorporate comments on the Older Users and this is the final
draft for the approval period, hopefully major comments should
come now rather than later.
... Still some issue for functionality. But ignoring the expand and collapse we want to look at first the H3, headings under perceivable, operable, understandable, and robust. Hopefully this is understandable from reading them, and developers can use them over time for older people. Look at the titles themselves.
Andrew: Are they meaningful a developer would relate to or any other suggestions.
Shadi: while going through the
documents just looking at the headings and organization of
that, anything jump out at you?
... A question to get this going, with each title to explain what is inside from the title. We are looking at the heading for older users. Each on the call to have a decent idea inside. Comments or thoughts on that.
Andrew: How do they work for t;his document, do they work, no comments then it's ready as is.
Wayne: H3s? or H4s? The H3s seem to be just perceivable, operable is what you want us to look at?
Andrew: H4 too.
Wayne: in text size there is blurring and could be clearer. Nothing to do with Audio presentation, or tactile presentation.
Shadi: In WCAG speak text decoration rather than presentation. Or just call it text Style?
Wayne: yes that is good.
Andrew: that would clarify whether text or audio.
Wayne: that would do it.
Shadi: consider inside the text impact, or use visual here or decoration.
Wayne: within CSS text decoration has a limited interpretation. Probably don't want to use that. One parameter of style. The real techie would come in and say Oh what do we say about decoration.
Andrew: without confusing that's good.
<shadi> [[Text style, including font type and decoration, ...]]
Shadi: for editors
... comments on this?
shadi: is alignment decoration?
<shadi> [[Text style, including font type, alignment, and decoration, ...]]
<shadi> [[Text style, including font, alignment, and decoration, ...]]
Liam: no, but you can't say typography because it follows in the next heading.
Wayne: Text Style and layout?
Shadi: layout starts going into other aspects of the presentation.
Liam: I meant text style and text layout, rather than just layout.
<shadi> [[from Liam: text style and text layout]]
Liam: generally the actual heading if you don't know what captcha is you don't know what is in it.
Shadi: Let's come back to that. That caught my attention. Andrew you use instead of navigation?
<Andrew> ACTION: developing - "Text style and presentation" > "Text style" or "text style and (text) layout" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Wayne: done in understanding?
<shadi> [[Consistent navigation and labelling]]
Andrew: yes, consistent navigation and labeling?
Shadi: Yes work around the word identification for the techie.
<Andrew> ACTION: developing - consider "Consistent navigation and presentation" > "Consistent navigation and labeling" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Shadi: that take care of the word presentation.
Shadi: I don't think captcha works as an acronym.
Yeliz: I agree with you, I don't think it works in the heading.
Liam: I don't have a better idea.
<yeliz> I agree with Andrew
Andrew: I don't know another either. Who use it?
Liam: I"m not sure. It is quite technical and specific thing. I don't think a big issue.
Andrew: we explain immediately inside and have an example.
shadi: Is there any other name?
Liam: No plain Engllish word to explain it.
Wayne: valid user test.
Liam: testing for real people.
<yeliz> I agree CAPTCHA is the best
Wayne: I think captcha is the best we will do.
Sharron: I agree.
Liam: I withdraw.
<yeliz> I also vote for short
Shadi: Adjectives like sufficient color contrast.
Liam: I vote for short.
<yeliz> but I think headings should be consistent
<yeliz> some still uses adjectives
Sharron: I like short also, without Captcha you get into a long thing. I like Captcha.
<yeliz> For example, "Understandable language"
Andrew: the readers have to do before they read it. consistent navigation.
Shadi: last comments for headings? Gone. Discuss comments we got. From Sylvie. First one is ordering is the success criteria. Within the group we just looked at. The order is what best matches the title or the intent of the description. An example.
Andrew: they are grouped by link purpose. the two link purpose are adjacent to each other rather than strict numerical order.
Shadi: the first two bullets are kind of related. They are thematically grouped. 247 focus visible is slightly different. If you expand the next section navigation section. The first one is multiple ways. This affects this by how the heading is set up. Which way to order is that confusing, or as best fits?
Sylvie: this comment was to ask what they intent is for grouping the order topic. but what about ordering in priority levels, then not so interesting first AAA over single A
Andrew: maybe to encourage using triple A?
Liam: this doesn't say what single A and triple A.
Andrew: In the opening paragraph about WCAG 2. In how it applies to older people is listed in this section also.
Liam: does the triple A as applicable. Consider as one single level. Then the order is not so important. Semantic makes senses then.
Shadi: I would argue against that. Less important for older people which applies to screen readers. In this case the WCAG levels apply there. Specifically.
Andrew: for thematic reasons.
Shadi: Is that clear to the reader? Liam how does that answer your question.
Liam: I think thematic is a clearer way of presenting it.
sylvie: Only a question. I have the answer.
Yeliz: some people are not the discussion of the level to have the criteria of the links.
<yeliz> I also see the idea
<yeliz> but feel like it will be easier to read if they are ordered by the SC number
<yeliz> how important is it to put the SC number?
shadi: ordering by numbers disturbs me a bit. The location in level A 242, is important for screen readers to be read aloud. Or search engines. Numerically the first one to appear. From a sensible point of view it is the third one on this list.
Wayne: color and contrast. Similar example on color and contrast. They fall out in numerical order, but the real order is about color and contrast. If we had another thing there as an other idea. It is good to have contrast together and here it comes out in the right order.
Shadi: at the beginning the H2 says how WCAG 2 applies to older people. They first section describes how this, the third paragraph add a sentence the success criteria relates to the significant or whatever so that people don't get confused.
Andrew: work for others?
Wayne: YOu might also say grouped by topic. The main one is older people and grouped by topic. The WCAG document groups things by levels. Related topics are far apart.
<Andrew> ACTION: developing - in How WCAG 2.0 Applies to Older People in para3, mention "the SC are grouped by relative significance for older people and grouped by topic" or similar expalanation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Andrew: Yes in the ordering, puts error recovery ahead of error prevention which puzzled me. I'll record something along those lines.
<shadi> [[Success criteria are listed thematically, to help readability [for people new to WCAG].]]
Wayne: For your discretion Andrew.
shadi: maybe a description up front how those are working. andrew apply to techniques also.
Wayne: a really nice document.
Andrew: thanks for the input. Yes.
Shadi: Let's have a look at the next question, is mouse use? The topic mouse use, is currently under operable, but a lot of the success relates to perception but they do help the use of the mouse. Leave here in operable or move somewhere else?
Andrew: one reason to leave here is that mouse use and keyboard use go together. I'm flexible.
Liam: should be in operable. A little bit of success criteria within it that seems not to fit.
shadi: the link to success criteria there will be no clear one to one mapping. Always an issue.
Sylvie: maybe explain somewhere you have classified according to WCAG principles but sometimes other criteria may help improve the operability of the mouse for example.
Shadi: In that beginning paragraph?
<Andrew> ACTION: developing - have classified according to WCAG principles, but inlcuded SC from other Principles where they are of assiatnce to the topic (for consideration) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action04]
<shadi> [[Success criteria are listed thematically, to help readability [for people new to WCAG]. Sometimes they are drawn from different guidelines to address a particular aspect.]]
Shadi: (reads first paragraph). Then sometimes the success criteria.
Sylvie: Drawn from a guideline. I remember different guidelines are in the same paragraph.
Shadi: Explain the structure but
... the next one is multi-media. I think the issue is that multi-media puts together what WCAG calls synchronized media. More technically correct. Means audio and video at the same time. Success criteria is about background audio. The question do have the alternatives be written or all the technques and a description.
Andrew: I wasn't happy with the five hundred becasue they didn't have the key words we wanted in there. Like transcript and all that. Very technical trying to select the five, maybe better to describe in general and then go look at the specifics. Opinions?
shadi: Alternatives for time based media could be audio or a transcript, someone reading that it isn't clear like what is time based media?
Andrew: maybe have in the intro paragraph. A short list of five. Or maybe six there?
Shadi: leave to editors discretion. A brief intro sentence then a list there might be fine.
Liam: I agree.
<yeliz> I agree as well
<Andrew> ACTION: developing - Multimedia - try brief intro sentence, then short 2nd level list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Shadi: One last question. Stay there on multi-media. Last sentence. More techniques. How to meet WCAG 2 is not linked because the two llinks before that are already going to WCAG 2. Do we want to link to WCAG 2 in every appearance is over kill. Or leave it.
Wayne: I say leave. That is intimidating and the others take you where you want to be.
Shadi: speak up now if you want the link? Gone. Andrew? Questions?
Andrew: Takes through the issues. On the organization guidance I got. Thanks.
Wayne: I have one overall thing.
It strikes me that you have organized to the four principles
like mouse links and navigation fall into multiple categories
like the mouse and keyboard. Like how to use a mouse is very
confusing. How to use things and when to do it. I wonder if at
the end where it's not so important a little thing, the fact of
this that many activities are done several ways and talk about
that a little bit. The mouse and keyboard are a
... for older people. Well the current generation of older users you are teaching how to interact with an interactive system. Teaching with seriously decreased motor and cognitive skills. A result maybe an unusability issue. The difference between mouse and keyboard especially when you hit the wrong target.
Shadi: I see the point.
Wayne: those are the two most confusing thing for older people I've encountered teaching older people.
Shadi: one issue with that regarding the different requirements map to different requirements, might encourage slicing and dicing WCAG. We suggest do Level A and double A. That they think about putting together for an older person. Andrew make a note to think about that. We'll have a closer look at that. Anybody else? Comments?
Wayne: When you talk about order of importance for older people. Sometimes the triple A is more important than single A. You may want to hit the feature at the triple A level.
Shadi: I agree with you Wayne. If you try to make for a particular disability you break up the levels. And some triple A are more important. Not limited to older people.
Wayne: I thought the document was limited to older people?
Andrew: You can order that way if you like. don't want to frighten off up front, but I wanted take that in ordering the links.
Wayne: the breaks at links we have to look at 2.4.9, it is not just people who have to listen, a myth that only people who listen to links who need a skip link.
Shadi: Thank you Wayne. Basically we have come to the end of this. Any other comments about developing web sites for Older People. Before we close everyone's consent on the call to go to approval mode. give a final sign off to be published on the WAI site. The plan is not to publish as a draft, in this case we publish as a pretty much finalized document. The upcoming approval and review. Anybody object to moving to preview and approval stage?
Shadi: record this document is going into review and approval for publication. We can wrap up this document.
<Andrew> resolution: Developing approved to move to final survey-based approval for publication
Shadi: the next agenda item. Couple of changes have been done throughout we sent out status to the list. Right now is what is ready for review, is the first three pages. Ready for more detailed review. And the last page. The one not ready is the web browsing which is being filled out. The main part to is to go through the other pages.
<shadi> Users can adapt the presentation of the content
Shadi: some of the edits that have been done. for the titles. I want to point out two titles. Under perceivable the second two titles. Content is easier to see and hear. Different from what we previously decided. The first was called user can adapt the presentation of the content, now called content can be presented in different ways. That better matches the WCAG title.
<shadi> Sufficient contrast to make content easy to see and hear
Shadi: The other one is Content is easier to hear and see. Sufficient contrast was the previous, but WCAG says including sufficent contrast but not exclusively contrast. That is what changes. I'd like to go through the text in the document. any reaction though to these changes?
Wayne: what did you change the content you changed for different ways?
Shadi: Users can adapt the presentaiton of the content.
Wayne: WCAG doesn't support that?
Shadi: WCAG doesn't talk about how users work with that, it is more about authors about what can do with that.
Wayne: that is a PDF point of view. Don't make for users' needs, make it in previous ways. Doesn't matter if you remove barriers.
<shadi> [[Guideline 1.3 Adaptable: Create content that can be presented in different ways (for example simpler layout) without losing information or structure.]]
Shadi: this is a recap guidelines 1.3 (reads the guideline in excerpt)
Wayne: that's good.
Shadi: I took the middle part about content can be used in different ways.
Wayne: that is the essence of it. At the guidelines it says that.
Shadi: lets seek out the first
one. Text alternatives. We looked at last week. We had good
comments on that.
... comments on this?
Sylvie: I don't know what it was before, but I think reading this it is good.
Shadi: there was a change made
from one of your comments. That text alternatives doesn't
relate to speech input. I changed the last sentence into two
sentences, the last two sentences have been edited according to
Wayne: It looks good.
Liam: It is very good.
Shadi: address your comment Sylvie?
Shadi: Let's jump into the next one alternatives for audio and video content. A little briefer.
Andrew: I liked the third paragaph which gives a reader how to go forward or how to do.
Wayne: I like too.
Shadi: Thanks. Multi-media is always getting push back. Next content. Presenting if different ways.
Liam: first bullet, can we use coded instead of mark up?
Shadi: Good comment.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - s/are properly coded/are properly marked-up [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Andrew: going back to the opening discussion, headings and what different documents. In the opening sentence users change the presentationmaybe users adapt.
Sharron: where the user meeting needs of the user, shows up in the first sentence so that Wayne's point can be incorporated there. To meet needs.
shadi: I tried to put that to be possible is not just proper design, I include specifically UAG. I used adapt later in the first paragraph than in the first part. Adapt might be a little confusing or jargony. According to needs and preferences I want to get?
Sharron: It's in the second sentence.
Wayne: I think it is pretty clear is about meeting the needs. It's pretty clear I think.
sharron: objection is withdrawn.
Shadi: Let's go to the next
section, Content is easy to see and hear.
... what about the bullets and their order?
Sharron: there are a lot of bullets, but they are short and very clear. These to me are very well done.
Shadi: Let's go to functionality is available from the keyboard.
sharron: why is number two different from the first?
Shadi: yes. It's not really different. I wanted to get crisp events along with functionality. This needs more work.
Liam: to point out alternatives keyboards could do with unpacking. For people who don't know what it is.
Wayne: minor thing, move scripts and events and actions up to that paragraph. When you talk about functionality. You don't need that bullet. An idea you are the editor.
shadi: that's a good idea.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Functionality is available from a keyboard - revisit "scripts, events, and action" -> might be better in the first paragraph rather than a second (repetitive) bullet [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shadi: alternative keyboards I linked to the web browsing page. But I thought all the cross links would be over key. Too far away. Important to have something closer up front there?
Liam: one of those things I want to know what it is. A link to the glossary or link to lower.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Functionality is available from a keyboard - consider briefly explaining "alternative keyboards" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Andrew: I think there are exceptions to all the rules. This is one of those exceptions.
Shadi: I'll take a pass at that.
Any other comments?
... let's go to the next one. Users have enough time to read the content.
... approve or don't?
Wayne: I approve.
Liam: thumbs up.
Shadi: continue to content does not cause seizures.
sylvie: I have sent a comment about this before. You insert people with visual impairments might need this. You answered this might not be the case. But someone who can't read that screen, you argued when the page is well designed. When a document is long with many tasks to fullfill, when you declared your income on the web. Even when you read rapidly it takes time to read this. I suggest to add visual impairment too.
Wayne: I agree.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Users have enough time to read and use the content - consider adding people with visual impairements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Doyle: I agree.
Shadi: I took an action to add
visual impairments as well.
... More research can be done.
Wayne: people with visual disabilities need more time is a fact.
Shadi: In the accessibilities list there is no visual disabilties are mentioned there that need more time.
Sylvie: when you fill in the form to fill out the tax form, you have only five minutes. Even if you are a fast reader, you take a lot of time.
Wayne: at universities it is standard to give visual impaired students time and half.
Shadi: I will take an
... Next was content does not cause seizures. Two sentences?
Liam: beautifully described.
andrew: just that it is presented differently, the previous ones you can skim, but for that purpose to have maybe one bullet there. Maybe the heading does not cause seizures is sufficient.
Shadi: yes that's the whole thing. One of the few requirements of WCAG that is very focused and specific. So users can find content and know where they?
Wayne: I like the paragraph, the
first sentence. (reads).
... we don't need to put their skill in navigating also is where to draw the line.
... you get better in the assistive technology as preferences change.
Shadi: there are ways to bypass lots of content. Bullet 5 says (reads) does this look to descriptions or expansions. I previously had as footnotes. A colleague. suggest putting into the bullets. anyone think it should not be in the bullets.
Wayne: I skipped them.
Shadi: doesn't disturb anyone about different length bullets.
<Andrew> not at all ;)
Shadi: Let's go over the other ones as well. Content is readable and understandable. Thoughts or comments here?
Wayne: I think it is good.
Shadi: what about the end where it says a particular group?
Shadi: next paragraph operates in predictable ways.
Liam: you could lose the word quickly from the first line.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Content appears and operates in predictable ways - consider removing "quickly" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action10]
Ian: the first paragraph talks about inconsistent, but the first bullet is not consistency but positioning.
<yeliz> I agree with Liam
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Content appears and operates in predictable ways - consider broader word for "behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action11]
<Andrew> [[distracted by inconsistent apperance or behavior]]
Liam: third bullet also. Unexpectedly without the user. How can you consistent to something unexpectedly?
<yeliz> it is a confusing sentence
Wayne: that is a confusing sentence.
Shadi: (reads sentence)
Liam: unexpctedly or without the consent of the user.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Content appears and operates in predictable ways - remove "unexpectedly" or "without consent of the user" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action12]
Wayne: the second part of your first sentence is in reference to the third bullet point. Does that really refer to the third bullet point, and the other part of the sentence refers to ...
<Andrew> [[/unexpctedly or without the consent of the user]]
Shadi: no about not distract, I agree with Liam it is more than behavior.
Wayne: Inconsistent and behavior would be enough.
<shadi> [[inconsistent behavior and appearance]]
Shadi: Inconsistent behavior and appearance. Comments?
Ian: I am not entirely with the example. The instructions appear in the same place each time. Whereas navigation which appear in the same place each time is predictable.
Shadi: the word predictable comes from the guidelines.
Ian: I'm not arguing it is not right, rather how it is not example of it, but how you make it predictable.
Andrew: change to examples of providing predictable content.
Shadi: examples of making content more predictable.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi - accessibility requirements - Content appears and operates in predictable ways - consider "example of making the content more predictable" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html#action13]
Wayne: I think you have the idea now.
<yeliz> it loooks beatiful
Shadi: I want to get to a
question. And wrap up this page.
... the comment is that the title of related section. We always have a description up front, and the next section is called the link section. That is what is in the guidelines. Granted it is not apparent related text, Sylvie to make it clear that is part of it, or a small sentence that describes. Any ideas on how to be better worded?
<shadi> [[Related sections in this resource]]
<shadi> [[Elsewhere in this resource]]
Shadi: related sections in this resource? or Elsewhere in the resource?
<shadi> [[Other parts of this resource]]
Wayne: rather than research put how PWD use the resource.
<yeliz> Related pages in this resource
<shadi> [[Related sections in How People with Disabilities Use the Web]]
Shadi: in how PWD use the web right?
<yeliz> Related pages in this suite
Wayne: Yes. Why use the pronoun when the noun will do.
Shadi: use the text related resource too? Actually links within those pages.
<yeliz> Because in the overview page, they are referred as <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/Overview> as pages
Wayne: i have to go. I'll do the notes clean up.
shadi: we need to wrap up. I will clarify that. We missed two more sections?
Doyle; I have to go.
Liam: I will have to leave.
<yeliz> I have to go as well
Shadi: please read through those last two sections and send comments you have to the list. We then can consider this wrapped up and focus on the web browsing page.
shadi: comments on training resource suite please complete the survey. Thank you everyone.
<Andrew> chair: Shadi
<Andrew> Chair: Shadi
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/semantic reasons/thematic reasons/ Succeeded: s/semantic/thematic/ Succeeded: s/semantic/thematic/ Succeeded: s/ use adapt/maybe users adapt/ Succeeded: s/ not cause seizures/ not cause seizures is sufficient/ Succeeded: s/without the consent/unexpctedly or without the consent/ Succeeded: s/of predictable/of providing predictable/ Found Scribe: Doyle Found ScribeNick: doylesaylor Default Present: doyle, Sharron, shadi, Andrew, +184.108.40.206.aaaa, sylvie, Wayne_Dick, yeliz, Liam_McGee, +1.207.330.aabb, Ian Present: Doyle Sharron Shadi Andrew Sylvie Wayne Yeliz Liam Ian Regrets: Emmanuelle Song Helle Alan Shawn Jennifer Got date from IRC log name: 03 Sep 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-eo-minutes.html People with action items: - accessibility according classified developing enough have requirements shadi time users WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]