<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/altspecification

<scribe> scribe: janina

sf: We need change proposal review by Rich and Cynthia, then
... there are a few sections that need completion following a discussion among us.
... Let's start with updated spec doc -- Made mapping changes from notes and memory -- Are they OK?
... Tried to include everything that had been cited as ommited.

cs: What about merging the tables?

sf: First table supposed to semantics not overwritable

cs: Seems if we had one big table, it would meet Maciej's complaint that he couldn't find something.

<Stevef> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html

<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5

sf: looking at <aname= -- without an href -- why a restriction?
... Also added caption. Doesn't seem it should be restricted

cs: Text from caption might go into the name, and we should have ARIA on it because someone could make it clickable.

sf: put norole for area because it's not rendered

cs: area without rhref valid?

sf: no

cs: what if tabindex?

sf: don't know

cs: We should treat like span anything without a reason why it shouldn't be overwritten

rs: Chaas wants to map area on top of canvas, so why not treat like a div?
... Is it overwritable?

<Stevef> If the area element has no href attribute, then the area represented by the element cannot be selected, and the alt attribute must be omitted.

sf: No, because not rendered and has no href

cs: So how is an area without href conformant?
... Can live with either way.
... Prefer default to everything allowed.

rs: Agree
... If applied to canvas, will need aria role

sf: OK.
... Put in "elements without restrictions?"

cs: yes

rs: yes

sf: So do we agree to a single table?

cs: Yes, will be easier to read.

rs: Yes, as long as it's clear what applies where.

sf: Looking now at hgroup ...
... Overides? Which?

cs: Anything. It's a span
... My default answer, I suspect.

sf: But then we need to say why.

cs: Unless there's a good reason to limit, don't limit.

sf: th element, no column or row header
... Is it inconsistent with our table guidance?

cs: But people repurpose them.

sf: difference between changed and additional semantics.
... This is a clearly defined a11y element to provide info about data tables

cs: existed before html had a11y ...

sf: But when it's overwritten then you no longer provide a11y info about the table

cs: But then what do you do when someone puts a onclick on th--which is common, to sort for instance
... I could wish aria were additive and not substitutional ...

sf: Concerned we shouldn't allow overwrite to turn th into a button, for instance

cs: but that's what people do

sf: OK, will go with the group consensus, but I can't defend it.
... So, what can they be overwritten with?

rs: We don't prohibit now, right?

[Steve not happy with this ...]

sf: Most of this has been stable for months ... but now we're saying something different

rs: We said we're reviewing the whole thing

sf: the parts that are changed

cs: Think sf wants help on recent changes ...

sf: So what role allowed on table?

cs: widgets and presentation, not para

sf: But that's what I have!

rs: Take from the other direction, what roles should it not support?

cs: We need to be consistent in our logic.

sf: By that token we should treat href and all struct the same ...

rs: yes

cs: If we can come up with a rule for these -- It's the one-off's that will get us turned down

<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5

sf: So, we're talking about incorrect html use, is it better with aria addition, or not?
... So, we're talking about incorrect html use, is it better with aria addition, or not?[group going through items]
... People, please review the entire proposal and provide comments, changes, additions ...

cs: Can I send you a word doc?

sf: yes
... We didn't finish, so will need another meeting.
... Don't know what to do with hgroup ...

cs: Heading, and refs inside presentation

sf: so now this is new

cs: There are two things here, logically it should function like a heading

sf: But new elements have a history of being misused, so it could be argued we should support best practice.

cs: If aria2 allows us to be additive, we will need to make sure we can add that to HTML5.

sf: Cynthia, can provide feedback?

cs: yes

rs: Yes, but not tonight

rrsagent make log public

rrsagent make minutes

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Found Scribe: janina
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Default Present: Janina, [Microsoft], Rich
Present: Janina [Microsoft] Rich

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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


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Got date from IRC log name: 17 Aug 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/08/17-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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