HTML Weekly Teleconference

05 Aug 2010



dsinger, Janina, Plh, Sam, adrianba, krisk, Julian, paulc, Cynthia_Shelly, Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft], HTML, +1.415.595.aabb, +1.415.595.aacc
Sam Ruby
Adrian Bateman


<pimpbot> changes: mike: style changes + typo fix from plh <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0020.html>

<dydz> Without loss of generality, suppose an <input id="A" type="text"> currently has focus. Calling window.focus() should perform the unfocusing steps on A according to section 7.4.2 of the HTML 5 spec. <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/editing.html#focus-management>, correct?

<pimpbot> Title: 7 User interaction HTML5 (at www.w3.org)

<dydz> Section 7.4.3 "Document-level focus APIs" doesn't seem to elaborate on this behavior.

<dydz> But the last paragraph of section 7.4.2 "When an element that is focused stops being a focusable element, or stops being focused ..." seems to imply that we should perform the unfocusing steps on A.

<Hixie> window.focus() does nothing

<Hixie> in particular, it doesn't affect the focus of elements in the window

<Hixie> "The focus() method on the Window object, when invoked, provides a hint to the user agent that the script believes the user might be interested in the contents of the browsing context of the Window object on which the method was invoked."

<Hixie> (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#dom-window-focus)

<pimpbot> Title: Web Applications 1.0 (at www.whatwg.org)

<Hixie> (dydz: ^)

<dydz> Hixie: hi

<dydz> Hixie: Then <https://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=46333> is correct as is?

<dydz> That seems weird.

<Hixie> that's a big test, what specifically am i looking to check?

<dydz> Hixie: The description at the top

<Hixie> that description is incorrect

<Hixie> as far as i can tell

<dydz> Is the correct expected result: (window, blur), (<iframe>, focus), (<input>, focus) ?

<Hixie> focus() on a Window object has no effect on the focus of controls

<Hixie> as far as I can tell, nothing in HTML ever fires 'blur' on Window objects

<Hixie> or 'focus' for that matter

<dydz> Hixie: We fire blur on the window when you click the <iframe>

<dydz> (and hence focus the iframe)

<Hixie> do any other browsers do that?

<dydz> Hixie: We can make the change. I'm curious why delivering a focus() or blur() event to the window is being phased out.

<Hixie> focus() event? do you mean a 'focus' event or the focus() method?

<dydz> Yes, Firefox fires the blur() to the window

<Hixie> the method?

<Hixie> i'm confused

<Hixie> if you're talking about events, rather than methods, then there's nothing being phased out, it's just not something that's been specced

<Hixie> maybe it should be

<Hixie> in which case figure out what the browsers do (especially IE) and send feedback to the list

<Hixie> (or file a bug)

<dydz> Hixie: I'm taking about events

<dydz> Hixie: In particular, suppose you set a web page with an <input type="text"> in an <iframe> (just like the test case)

<Hixie> k. for the record, "foo()" refers to a foo method, not a foo event :-)

<dydz> Then, in JavaScript you call input.focus(); window.focus();

<dydz> where input is the DOM element that corresponds to the <input type="text"> in the <iframe>

<dydz> Hixie: Then are the events that should be fired: a blur event at the window, a focus event at the <iframe>, a focus event at the <input>?

<dydz> From what you mentioned above, window.focus() does not fire a focus event at the window

<Hixie> according to the spec, 'blur' never gets sent to any windows ever. this may be an omission in the spec.

<Hixie> similarly, according to the spec, 'focus' never gets fired at an iframe, because iframes aren't focusable.

<Hixie> so the only event the spec says should be fired is 'focus' at the input element

<Hixie> now it's possible that the spec is wrong

<Hixie> which you can determine by seeing if all the browsers do the same thing

<Hixie> if they do, then the spec needs changing

<Hixie> in which case, send mail and/or file a bug

<dydz> Hixie: On a side note, suppose the user clicks (using a mouse or touch input) the <input type="text"> within the <iframe>, then clicks some part of the background of the page.

<dydz> Then an focus event would be fired on the <input>, a blur event would be fired on the <input>, and a focus event would be fired on the <body>, right?

<Hixie> assuming there's a body element, yes

<Hixie> other events might fire too

<Hixie> e.g. 'change' on the input

<dydz> right

<Hixie> (not to mention the mouse events)

<pimpbot> changes: mike: build tweak (moved IDs to html element (document element) in multipage output) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0021.html>

<dydz> Hixie: For your reference, blur and focus events are fired on user click in both Safari and Firefox.

<dydz> *blur and focus events on the window are fired

<Hixie> i'm not able to track feedback right now unfortunately

<Hixie> if you want me to change the spec please mail the list or file a bug

<dydz> Hixie: ok. By the way, I put together a test <http://tersk.intudata.com/~dbates/webkit/debug-frame-focus.html> that you could use to see the focus and blur events being fired.

<Hixie> cool

<dydz> (if it interests you)

<Hixie> include it in the mail and i'll look at it when i get to that point in the pile of feedback :-)

<dydz> Hixie: thanks for you help, ok, I'll look to write an email to the list shortly.

<Hixie> np, sorry i can't help more right now

<dydz> I'm not exactly sure of the solution, but I'll at least explain the current state.

<Hixie> knowing the problem is more useful for me than knowing a solution, fwiw :-)

<Hixie> i can come up with solutions, coming up with problems is harder :-)

<dydz> :-)

<dydz> Hixie: I can come up with problems :P

<Hixie> excellent :-)

<pimpbot> changes: mike: made markup-consistency fix from Dom <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0022.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10296] New: your page is unusable! Freezes firefox 3 on Windows and Mac! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0075.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10298] Update the definition of BR from "a line break" to "a text-level thematic break." <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0080.html> 4** [Bug 10298] New: Update the definition from "a line break" to "a text-level thematic break." <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0079.html> 4** [Bug 10297] New: Update the definition from "a line break" to "a text-level thematic break.

<pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10298] Update the definition of BR from "a line break" to "a text-level thematic break."" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0081.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9602] Autofocus attribute. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0082.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 9602] Autofocus attribute." (5 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0086.html>

<Cesarino> Hi all

<Cesarino> how do you set a video background with html5?

<plh> you mean besides using css?

<Cesarino> using the css

<Cesarino> 3

<plh> using css, the video element doesn't differ from others. of course, unless you make your video transparent, you won't see much of the background

<Cesarino> you must set the video tag before the div#container?

<plh> to be honest, I don't know what you're trying to do so it's difficult to answer

<Cesarino> ok, sorry

<Cesarino> I mean, something like this? <video url> </video> <div id=container></div>

<plh> you don't need to have a div#container to use the video tag

<Cesarino> ok

<plh> if you want to have a border around your video, you can use css and set the border at whatever size you want

<plh> you can also increase the padding, and set a background color

<Cesarino> But i want a video in the background, and a site on that..., like:

<plh> oh, I see, that's different

<plh> then use absolute positioning on your video

<plh> and set the <video> tag before your container

<Cesarino> ah

<plh> sorry, was slow to get what you were looking for

<Cesarino> :-)

<Cesarino> gona try that

<pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 9602] Autofocus attribute." (6 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0087.html>

<rubys> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 05 August 2010

<scribe> ScribeNick: adrianba

<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-08-04 [task force week] from Sam Ruby on 2010-08-04 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from July to September 2010) (at lists.w3.org)

<scribe> Scribe: Adrian Bateman

ACTION items due by Thursday, Aug 5


<trackbot> ACTION-184 -- Paul Cotton to ensure that someone in the WG is testing the new @rel registry setup by IANA -- due 2010-08-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/184

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-184 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

paulc: haven't done anything on this because soon after the call maciej continued the mail thread
... and pointed julian at registration attempt
... this seems to be continuing on the list
... it's not obvious whether we have consensus about whether the attempt was valid
... but someone is trying out the system

rubys: should close the action and consider opening others

julian: i asked for making progress a few weeks ago but it doesn't appear that we have made progress

rubys: sounds like action 184 is closed and next action is call for consensus

julian: that's good

paulc: that's an implicit call on the chairs for action

<rubys> close action-184

<trackbot> ACTION-184 Ensure that someone in the WG is testing the new @rel registry setup by IANA closed

paulc: i took the action when i was in the chair to make sure we pushed this forward

rubys: and maciej helped with this too

New Issues This Week

rubys: None

Working Group decisions

rubys: believe close to decision on issue 30


<trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-30 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

rubys: the rest are being worked on
... questions?

Items Closing This Week

rubys: None

Items Closing Next Week


<trackbot> ISSUE-41 -- Decentralized extensibility -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-41 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

rubys: paul put out a call for advocates so we can reduce the number of proposals if possible
... the mailing list is active on this

paulc: i made the call for advocates to end at the end of next week
... wanted to do it for longer than one week in case people are away given it is summer


<trackbot> ISSUE-89 -- Remove Section 4.12 Common Idioms without dedicated Elements -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/89

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-89 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)


<trackbot> ISSUE-92 -- Re-write the Table section to remove extraneous material, and provide cleaner description -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/92

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-92 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

rubys: made a request that these proposals be updated
... see that this has been done but yet to review them


<trackbot> ISSUE-110 -- Change Control for text/html-sandboxed media type -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/110

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-110 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

rubys: actually has a month but people should be aware of this
... if people are interested they can work on this

Current WG Surveys


<trackbot> ISSUE-100 -- Remove the srcdoc attribute from the HTML5 specification -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/100

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-100 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

rubys: new survey started yesterday for one week

<rubys> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-100-objection-poll/

rubys: everyone who wants to participate is encouraged to do so

Task Force Reports - Accessibility Task Force

janina: got a couple of things going on where it seems there are issues beyond the task force's ability to make progress
... we're discussing this and maciej has been meeting with some a11y tf people
... aria mapping is moving forward into a better state
... looks like this will take another couple of weeks to emerge in a more acceptable form
... the second issue is about canvas
... we have put forth a proposal about canvas that isn't fully acceptable to some people in the wg
... it's about focus ring, caret, and selection
... these are different on different OS
... which is problematic and it's not clear how to resolve
... may be a philosophical difference of opinion
... need to discuss how to move forward towards a resolution
... that's forthcoming and we should plan to discuss on monday
... for drag and drop we're also somewhat blocked but we need responses from browser developers
... we have people committed to find us someone to work with
... on all these we're moving slower because of people away on vacation
... progress is happening but slower because it is august
... on media when we met last week with chairs we talked about announcing to the wider group the availability of our user requirements
... we want the main issue about timing to be discussed more widely than the tf
... i was asked not to do that until the last edits have gone in
... hopefully this will be done fairly soon, hopefully before this meeting next week
... we know we have many different representations necessary, primary and then alternatives for different audiences
... we need to keep these appropriately synchronised even if they're not the same length
... we need to get this discussion out more widely

Task Force Reports - Testing Task Force

krisk: met last week as planned and will meet again 8/10

<krisk> Notes -> http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-htmlt-minutes.html

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 27 Jul 2010 (at www.w3.org)

krisk: we approved 50 of the canvas tests and more are being reviewed
... some discussion about webidl and ability to delete dom objects
... decided they should not be deletable
... anne submitted tests for getElementsByClassName
... also james graham has been updating test harness to integrate new automated tests
... automated instead of manual
... updated test runner to generate results in xml
... it might move to json - we're discussing this

<krisk> I created set of conformance reports http://test.w3.org/html/tests/reporting/report.htm

<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Conformance Test Results (at test.w3.org)

krisk: conformance reports using the xml format across some different user agents
... we'd like other vendors to submit/update results
... even though it's summer lots of things going on
... that's it for today

paul: kris, you just asked for other vendors to get engaged - am i to take it that microsoft and opera are engaged but who else?

krisk: there's a few independents who chime in from time to time
... but nothing really consistently from other browser vendors

paul: i was trying to open up the link to the report.htm and i'm having trouble viewing it
... is it supposed to give results for different runs of the suite?

<krisk> http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm

krisk: yes, if you go through the test runner
... and pass or fail all the tests then at the end you can generate results and it gives xml
... which can be submitted to hg
... if it's a new user agent it will show up on the report table

paul: how are you controlling who can submit

krisk: currently you can submit to hg - we'll see what happens and will manage it
... it's all audited through hg
... we want browser vendors to submit their own results

paul: that's what i'm concerned about - i'm curious if plh has comments

plh: i like what i'm seeing

paul: i do too

Misc items

rubys: decision policy update

mjs: there is one small drafting task left and then we will want review
... there's been a large number of bugs dealt with

rubys: questions?
... HTML WG status

<scribe> ...done one back in March

paul: continue to work on this
... plh did one for an AB meeting in early july
... believe another AB meeting coming up
... don't think plh got to present last report
... are the slides public?

plh: believe so

<plh> --> http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0715-html-plh/Overview.html HTML5 Update

<pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Update (at www.w3.org)

paul: need to get this level of information directly to the AC
... need to finish drafting this alongside the information plh has
... definitely on my to do list

rubys: questions?

Other business

rubys: floor is open

Scribe for next meeting

rubys: maciej is chairing, volunteers?
... plh has volunteered


rubys: adjourned, thanks everyone

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found ScribeNick: adrianba
Found Scribe: Adrian Bateman
Default Present: dsinger, Janina, Plh, Sam, adrianba, krisk, Julian, paulc, Cynthia_Shelly, Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft], HTML, +1.415.595.aabb, +1.415.595.aacc
Present: dsinger Janina Plh Sam adrianba krisk Julian paulc Cynthia_Shelly Radhika_Roy [Microsoft] HTML +1.415.595.aabb +1.415.595.aacc
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010JulSep/0012.html
Found Date: 05 Aug 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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