05 Aug 2010


See also: IRC log


Eric, Janina, kliehm, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Marco_Ranon, Jon_Gunderson, Rich, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton
Steven_Faulkner, Denis_Boudreau, Laura_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita


<Marco_Ranon> hi all. I can't dial in. Zackim UK busy apparently...

<Marco_Ranon> I'll be on IRC. Thanks Janina.

<Marco_Ranon> I will need to run home just after the call but that's OK.

<scribe> scribe: Rich

Actions Review

janina: not a lot of people present
... was there a media call yesterday

JF: just a formal discsussion on time stamp formats.

Action 28

<scribe> ACTION: 47 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax

Action 47

regrets from both Steve and Gregory

Keyboard Access Requirements

janina: We need UAAG to work with us on this. However, Gregory who is out was supposed to spearhead that for us

Drag and Drop

<MichaelC> rs: asked PaulC for IE engineers to work on drag 'n drop solution

<MichaelC> nothing back yet

<MichaelC> cs: has been asking around, just waiting on responses

janina: without feedback we cannot move forward
... as it sits drag and drop were modelled on mouse actions but not in a device independent manor. So, we are on hold on this topic

Canvas subteam report

<MichaelC> rs: modified proposal to incorporate feedback from James Graham

<MichaelC> allow focus ring to use drawing path in canvas

<MichaelC> also adjusted caret tracking

<MichaelC> caret and focus need to be separate

<MichaelC> spent time with Ian on it

<MichaelC> he thinks it would be too complex

<MichaelC> but people who are working on accessibility will use that

<MichaelC> entered 2 bugs related to this

<MichaelC> no review yet on changes from James

<MichaelC> trying to make sure API would work

<MichaelC> tying to a drawing call is problematic

<MichaelC> not much more can do until hear back on reviews

<MichaelC> the drawing thing will be an issue

<MichaelC> next steps?

<MichaelC> don't expect a drawing thing soon

<davidb> db: (irc only) sorry i haven't been active on the canvas subteam (blame priorities)

<MichaelC> don't expect support for a API specific to accessibility

<MichaelC> js: it's not sufficient to have a canvas element that doesn't meet accessibility

<MichaelC> we've created what we know meets the need

<MichaelC> so not up to us any more

<MichaelC> we can try to help them out

<MichaelC> jg: no developers stepping up?

<MichaelC> does Microsoft natively support canvas, or translate to their own language?

<MichaelC> pc: native support

<MichaelC> js: we seem to have an impasse

<MichaelC> we have an accessibility solution not widely supported

<MichaelC> not getting movement on finding a solution that meets everyone

<MichaelC> pc: suggest Janina and Paul discuss this issue at HTML chairs meeting next Monday

<MichaelC> would be good to have a problem statement in advance for the people not previously in the discussion

<MichaelC> js: asks Rich to prepare that

<MichaelC> pc: nobody understimates the amount of work that's been done

<MichaelC> very helpful to have clear statement of the logjam

ARIA mapping

<MichaelC> rs: had a call with Maciej last week

<MichaelC> wants us to break up change proposal into specific problem areas

<MichaelC> with the original content in section 3.2.6

<MichaelC> didn't understand reason for all the changes

<MichaelC> there's a whole collection of discrete changes needed

<MichaelC> cs: Steve was going to do some changes

<MichaelC> not sure if it's to the change proposal or the substance

<MichaelC> rs: so moving along fairly well

<MichaelC> cs: we should have an ARIA mapping call next week


JF: we have are use cases and are working on technical requirements
... We are grappling with the time line issue
... What do we do when takes 10 seconds to describe a theme
... For SVG they went SMIL and made it native to SVG. That is being investigated
... We are grappling with the larger issue
... We want to defer the hard stuff until we get the easy stuff done.
... This is an incomplete solution

Janina: if you assume all your media matches on the time line then you can't deal with deviations.
... extended is just one case where the time lines might diverge
... Say you have a half hour video with a lot of dialog and you want the video descriptions in the middle of it
... Do you want two downloads?

cynthia: Is this a must have

JF: yes and no
... the concern is that if we don't figure out how to asynchronous timing it will make it difficult to circle back and pick up the straggling end.
... the other problem is that if we spend too much time other items will suffer. we want implementers to try this out
... It is a big problem

jongunderson: I noticed that each time a video format comes out we have a new timed text format
... has a media developer ever adopted someone elses timed text format?
... Industry does never use a single timed text format

JF: that is the problem
... we have SRT which is a stripped down file
... it is a simple text file

<gfreed> note that DFXP/TTML was supposed to solve the problem not having a single timed-text format for everyone to use.

JF: some are looking to take this format and extend it
... there is also timed text format. this is in most of the flash players today. TTML is an extremely large spec. It is overengineered
... there are issues with the styling of it
... It is an XML format. then there is the whole XML namespace discussion
... Silvia Pfeiffer, funded by mozilla, is looking at WWML. The feedback is that because it is XML based is a problem per HTML working group members
... that is the impass
... Again, the asynchronous time line is going to be a vexing problem.
... any solutions will be delayed

jongunderson: my only comment is to try and figure out where you are going to make progress. There does not seem to be any force out there that is trying to make it better. The incentives are to do your own.
... the markup in html 5. is it easy to detect if captions are added?
... my question is how to make captions for the file

JF: there is a proposal in the WhatWG spec for the track element which would be a track of video
... each track would add markup for the video
... you would have tracks for different languages
... it has been on the whiteboard for a while but that seems to be the general direction we are moving in
... there is no formal name for it

janina: we would rather these be text files vs. binary so that we can style them
... for the majority of the time a supporting track could be a video file with sign language signing

JF: we are agnostic as to what the support file in track would be. You need a control time line. this would be the primary media asset
... this is the hardest piece to resolve
... can we advance this to the larger HTML working group
... we need to move on multiple fronts

jongunderson: the timed text format thing is a tough one

JF: yes
... that is the hardest thing to resolve
... It may turn religious
... we want the user agent requirements to firmly laid out

<gfreed> will send a note to the list regarding the text format and possibly aligning it with other formats that are being adopted.

JF: it really is going to be the last thing to get resolved. there are no easy answers

<gfreed> it will probably complicate the issue further. sorry...

<JF> thanks geoff

michaelC: Marco and I will meet in a couple hours to see how we will work
... we will see if they are available
... Laura will join us in a couple weeks
... I am hoping it won't be a big time synch. Laura has been submitting reviews for several months

Janina: canvas question
... where are we via Charles' proposal?

<MichaelC> rs: The proposal submitted included an allotment for using an <area> map

<MichaelC> Charles is away; when he gets back I'll be gone

<MichaelC> but at least the space exists for him to plug his work in

RRSAgent: draft minutes

Zakim: bye

Zakim bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: 47 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2010/08/05 15:56:54 $

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Succeeded: s/Since Zakim UK is a bit temperamental, do you mind if we use Skype and we dial in at 6 or 7 UTC?//
Succeeded: s/isuue/issue/
Succeeded: s/Silvia Pfypher at mozilla/Silvia Pfeiffer, funded by mozilla,/
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Default Present: Eric, Janina, kliehm, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Marco_Ranon, Jon_Gunderson, Rich, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton
Present: Eric Janina kliehm Michael_Cooper John_Foliot Marco_Ranon Jon_Gunderson Rich Ben_Caldwell Cynthia_Shelly Paul_Cotton
Regrets: Steven_Faulkner Denis_Boudreau Laura_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita

WARNING: No meeting title found!
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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0001.html

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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 05 Aug 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 47

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