HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

29 Jul 2010


See also: IRC log


Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Denis_Boudreau, Kenny_Johar


<richardschwerdtfe> running a bit late

<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 29 July 2010

<richardschwerdtfe> how soon will we be discussing drag/drop

<richardschwerdtfe> I have another call I need to get on

<Marco_Ranon> Hi All, just joined in from the UK number

<richardschwerdtfe> ?

<MichaelC> frickin' zakim

<Marco_Ranon> Happy to make room on the phone for Steve or others if required

<paulc> I cannot connect on the phone. Probabaly local problem with my VOIP.

<scribe> scribe: Ben

Actions Review

<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements

<oedipus> action-28?

<trackbot> ACTION-28 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list -- due 2010-07-29 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix

<oedipus> action-28: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix

<trackbot> ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list notes added

Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements

<JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements

<JF> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Video_Text_Format_Comparison

JF: we have started collecting technical reqs. based on user reqs. document, currently discussing the actual time stamp format

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask why discussion happening in WHATWG space without AT LEAST carbon-copying a w3c html-specific list

JF: various proposals on the table, important to note that there are multiple formats under discussion and there is resolve to continue working on this as quickly as possible

<paulc> Still no luck dialing in. sorry.

GR: concerned that some of this discussion took place without cc to A11Y list

JS: seems like an HTML WG issue that needs discussion

<paulc> leaving to try to fix my phone problems ...

JF: We are aware that there are WHATWG followers out there who believe that once it's written there, it is set in stone. Need to be sure that people understand that's not the case.

JS: Do we have bug triage group up and running?

MC: just a matter of getting scheduling in place

JS: Canvas subgroup?

<oedipus> canvas 2D post by Rich 28 July 2010 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0148.html

RS: Trying to wrangle all the cats and proposals. Follow up proposals submitted to address concerns with the original.
... alternate proposals coming in that are making things more complex

<oedipus> chaals' updated canvas proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0114.html

<MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html

MS: if you go to HTML WG home page, there is a list maintained by the chairs related to change proposals

<oedipus> chaals' change proposal for canvas: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom

RS: problem is that group wants proposals merged, then alternate proposals that do not address important issues are coming in

JS: think we can make this simpler, we could tell the WG that we'd like to take these 3 proposals back and work them into a single proposal

RS: Yes, I would prefer to do that.

JS: Suggest that would take about a month?

RS: Yes.

MS: Given that a lot of people will be on vacation, that seems like a good estimate.

<oedipus> hixie on change proposals for HTMLWG Issue 74 and Issue 105 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0219.html

RS: I'll leave coordination issues to chairs. Meanwhile, I'll try to communicate to Ian on this. Suggestion is to have an API that would do the drawing for the author. We can basically bury the accessibility services in an API that would allow the author to have an API to do the drawing and caret selection, etc. If Ian can write the API, I can write how the UA/AT supports it.

<oedipus> RichS response to hixie's post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0231.html

JS: ARIA mappings, working on improving rationale for Issue 10066.

RS: They wanted to know rationale for all of our changes... Some things needed to allow for greater role support on specific objects. Other places where we felt that if you applied ARIA, you could cause more problems for AT.

They wanted to understand how we approached the problem and categorize the changes. We've agreed to work on a change proposal that highlights the changes and why we changed them the way we did.

We have a meeting on Friday and will do another round on the change proposal to make things clearer.

JS: Glad to see participation from a chair on this in improving proposals to match what they like to see.

Drag & Drop Discussion

<oedipus> GJR: problem is that HTML5 dnd not accessible via keyboard (reverse engineered from mouse actions) and there is no longer a copy& paste API in HTML5

JS: There have been several email exchanges on this topic. Seems that the issue comes down to the existing drag and drop spec is more or less reverse engineered from mouse actions that are not necessarily device-independent friendly

<oedipus> 1. HTML5 requires an adequate definition of what can be achieved via copy and paste using drag and drop, which necessitate that HTML5 also define a copy and paste API in their current work.

<oedipus> 2. if 1. is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

JS: Question is how do we get to a device-independent place for this

RS: At this point, Gez has not developed a proposal. A lot of the issues are that some of the services that you get from drag and drop provide detail about what you just dragged. This info is lost if you initiate it from the keyboard, but that is important information for users.

I'm looking for UA devs who are working in this space.

<oedipus> gez made an inquiry to public-html-a11y (followed up by a post to the same effect by MikeSmith) asking devs to contribue -- only 2 apple people responded

RS: If we do this, I think it's going to fix more things than just accessibility.

JS: Seems like dev feedback is key.

MS: Important to note that what is in the spec potentially is based on IE behavior including the event name and the descriptions of what events fire, when they fire, etc. So, some of this is a problem in existing UAs and the spec may have to be adjusted to match what's actually implemented.
... multiple events fire as you drag across different windows, while you're hovering inside a window, etc. Can see that there are a number of challenges here. If we can look at the OS level how you make dragging of file system icons around the desktop accessible, then I think it can be done in web applications

RS: Drag and drop came from IE team, think that would be a good place to start.

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask what happened to Copy & Paste API in HTML5?

GR: what happened to Copy & Paste API in HTML5?

<oedipus> 1. HTML5 requires an adequate definition of what can be achieved via copy and paste using drag and drop, which necessitate that HTML5 also define a copy and paste API in their current work.

<MikeSmith> I think the copy&paste API may still be in teh source for the spec, commented out

<oedipus> 2. if 1. is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

<kliehm> Perhaps accessible drag & drop is challenging because the spec itself isn't mature. Hixie's notes from reverse engineering: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1115899732&count=1 - Also there was a rant from Peter-Paul Koch on his QuirksMode blog.

Keyboard Access Requirements

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements

JS: would like to hear ideas about how to move forward with this

do we need another subteam to work on this?

GJR: First of all, need to field the comments from Judy and Jeanne

I believe that the thrust of the UA reqs. regard user control over whether to fire an action when the access key is invoked vs. to just move focus there. I'm waiting for one of them to provide the requirements so they can be added to the PF reqs. and consider them as a whole

JF: I have some thoughts regarding whether this should be an element or attribute

GJR: I have logged two bugs. There are others identified that need more discussion.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements

JS: are there folks from UA WG that we can engage?

<oedipus> Psuedo-Cascade of Multiple Accesskeys Definable for an Individual Element bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10251

<oedipus> HTML5 hard-binds "Action" to accesskey key-press bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10252

Think if we get folks from that group engaged, we can get this moving forward.

JS: Any objection to creating a sub-team for this?

GJR: Would need to have more focus on device independence.

<oedipus> GJR: device independece sub-group? cover: acces* (accesskey), dnd, etc.

GJR: hoping to get reqs. added and under discussion before next week's meeting

TF Recommendations Followup: @Alt Rationales; Participation in WG process

<oedipus> issues with accesskey as-is in HTML5 (and resultant thread)

<MikeSmith> HTML Chairs "Change Proposal Status" page

MS: Best way to keep up with status of any HTML WG issues that the TF as a group needs to track is the Change Proposal Status Page
... If we see something missing from that page, then we should bring it to the attention of the chairs.
... We should make sure that any change proposal we are asking the chairs to consider is listed on this page.

<paulc> Paul leaving to Chair HTML WG weekly meeting.

If there is information that we don't feel the page captures, then we can ask that more information be added

<oedipus> some accessibility/usability problems with bugzilla: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0146.html (and resultant thread)

Summary of Action Items

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Possibly Present: Ben_Caldwell Cynthia_Shelly GJR GR Gregory_Rosmaita HTML INC_Prov IPcaller JF JS John_Foliot Jon_Gunderson Judy MC MS Mappings Marco_Ranon MichaelC Michael_Cooper Microsoft Mike MikeSmith P6 RS Rich Styl_XSL-FO- TF Team_Comm WAI_PFWG WAI_Team XG action-28 active davidb https inserted janina jongunderson kliehm oedipus paulc richardschwerdtfe trackbot
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Regrets: Laura_Carlson Gez_Lemon Denis_Boudreau Kenny_Johar
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0124.html
Found Date: 29 Jul 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-html-a11y-minutes.html
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