Forms Working Group Teleconference

14 Jul 2010


See also: IRC log


[IBM], +, wiecha, Steven, Alain, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, +44.782.483.aabb, pfennell, John_Boyer, unl
Erik, Leigh, Uli


<trackbot> Date: 14 July 2010

<pfennell> I'm in the office at the moment so I'll be mostly on 'Mute' to keep the noise down.

<scribe> scribe: nick

TOPIC Upcoming telecons

steven: Next is July 21, 2010; Steven to chair. after that I'm on holiday

New Draft Tutorial

steven: New version is on-line http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0011.html it now contains live forms
... I would like people to have a look at it and send in comments (both editorial and structural changes are welcome) during my vacation

The replace attribute for method put and method delete

<Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0008.html

John: Uli responded to this and said it is possible to send a response for PUT and DELETE

John_Boyer: We talked about this in the past, and said it wasn't important enough to make a special case for it

Parse and serialize function

<Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0006

nick: parse() and serialize() are in XPath 2.1, so if we add them they should be as close as possible to those, and maybe we should say how you can add xpath 2.x functions to XForms

John_Boyer: we already have a couple of functions in our spec

nick: In XPath 2.0 you have a default function namespace, in most languages equal to the xpath functions and operators ns

John_Boyer: we decided in the past to add our functions in our namespace when we add support for xpath 2.0
... we could add this new functions in xforms ns, XPath 1.0 supports name spaced functions too
... we could add all our functions in the XForms name space also if using XPath 1.0 engine

Steven_: was your question to point to the xpath spec and not to incorporate them in our spec

nick: yes, I would prefer not to add all the usefull XPath functions to our spec

John_Boyer: we have the possibility already by the functions attribute on model, the functions could be added as extensions
... If we are concerned if a function is not fully compatible with the XPath 2.x version we could add it as an only namespace qualified function

<klotz> with the same local name? ugh

<Steven_> We did that with id()

Steven_: Are we now finished on this topic

<John_Boyer> Leigh, did you mean to imply that using the same local name *without namespace qualifying it* is an ugh?

John_Boyer: All new XForms functions will only be available in the XForms namespace
... Al functions from XF11 are both available in the default and the XForms Namespace

<klotz> topic done but to answer John_Boyer's question, I am concerned about having two functions with the same local name and different behavior; with id we justfiied it by saying it's just argument overloading (added instance id).

RESOLUTION: All new XForms functions will only be available in the XForms namespace, all functions that are available in XForms 1.1 will be available in both the default and the XForms namespace

* xforms 1.1 view refresh question http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2010Apr/0015.html Responses http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2010Apr/0016.html (related to switch/@case?) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2010Apr/0017.html Is this closed?

Steven_: Does the spec requires a refresh to set the to their default case?

John_Boyer: No, I think we also answered it
... not to be the case

* switch/@appearance http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Mar/0048.html

John_Boyer: The idea was that on the FtF we had different expectations of a switch, which were different in nature not only 'appearance'

Steven_: On a server side implementation the non relevant cases aren't sent to the client

John_Boyer: with AJAX you can simulate the zombie case

Steven_: explains that we need to be careful not to introduce dependencies on a lot of communication between client and server (JavaScript)

<pfennell> I need to step out for a moment.

John_Boyer: The decision was that the appearance attribute wasn't the attribute that we should use, if we add an extra attributes some implementation should do more then they do today (not available versus available for non selected cases)
... In some cases the users use the switch as a multiple page wizard
... In this case they want to keep receiving events for the non displayed cases (e.g.: to build an error overview)
... reminds us of why we sometimes want to receive the events in non selected cases

<pfennell> Sorry about that, I'm back now.

John_Boyer: we say in the spec that non selected cases non-relevant, because we want to disable events and style it as hidden
... the spec says that you can style non-relevant controls

Steven_: the use case is that we want to make non-relevant cases live, the question is how are we accomplish this feature
... is it a property of the case and/or the switch

John_Boyer: For now it is a property of the switch

<klotz> for the multi-page wizard use case we may want to associate state with the switch (as with @ref) so that constraints can be applied only during certain cases (state machine).

John_Boyer: We could even maybe to add buttons atomically to toggle to the cases
... We add an attribute cases-are-live with values true/false

Steven_: do you think that the automatic buttons only are available in the live case?Isn't it another feature that is useful in both cases

<klotz> <cases-are-live value="instance('foo')/path/to/something" />?

Steven_: The the two use cases are:

1) The ease of authoring to automatically add buttons

2) The liveness of non-relevant cases

<John_Boyer> liveness *and absence* of non-selected cases

<John_Boyer> people wanted non-selected cases to be absent, not just non-relevant

<John_Boyer> yes

<klotz> bye

<klotz> thanks nick

rssagent, bye

<Steven_> s/TOPIC Upcoming telecons/TOPIC: Upcoming telecons

Summary of Action Items

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Inferring ScribeNick: nick
Default Present: [IBM], +, wiecha, Steven, Alain, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, +44.782.483.aabb, pfennell, John_Boyer, unl
Present: [IBM] + wiecha Steven Alain Nick_van_den_Bleeken +44.782.483.aabb pfennell John_Boyer unl
Regrets: Erik Leigh Uli
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0013.html
Found Date: 14 Jul 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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