W3C

- DRAFT -

Internationalization Teleconference

14 Jul 2010

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
+972.7.474.6aaaa, +44.141.888.aabb, Richard, David, aphillip, +972.5.225.5aacc, +1.415.283.aadd, matial, Norbert, Aharon, [IPcaller], Felix
Regrets
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
Addison Phillips

Contents


<scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips

<scribe> ScribeNick: aphillip

Agenda

<scribe> Agenda:http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Jul/0000.html

aharon: DOM3 keyboard events

<Norbert> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/214

norbert: http content-language

Action Items

addison: forward date-time proposal to HTML WG

<scribe> ACTION: addison: blurb the -u- extension last call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html#action01]

richard: publish the b and i tags/elements document

<scribe> DONE

richard: send our comments and questions to the html wg on polyglot document

<scribe> DONE

Info Share

<r12a> http://unicode.org

richard: unicode is now cool
... they tweet and fb and rss and such
... and they did their first such announcement yesteray

DOM3 keyboard events

richard: forwarding to our list

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2010JulSep/0018.html

aharon: basically the proposal is to add another field (attribute) to DOM3 key events
... and also text events
... which are new to DOM3

<scribe> ... new attribute would indicate the language of the keyboard

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: would be a string (locale), in BCP 47 format

aharon: use case: smart quotes
... differ by language so user-agent could convert based on input keyboard
... and on-line editors might want to do the same thing
... basing on the UI language is not necessarily the document language
... bidi use case is...
... word looks at keyboard language to decide if neutral character such as a number or punctuation
... to decide if part of ltr or rtl string

norbert: active spell checker might be a better choice
... no need to switch layout/input locale to type various languages

aharon: keyboard language could be useful hint

richard: ability to turn off, etc.

addison: input locale may be more than just the language, includes other info, such as input mode or layout??
... warnings about usage might be important

aharon: generate markup or unicode controls could be generated based on this to control bidi? provides an option for this
... doesn't necessarily impact html req doc

mati: somewhat uncomfortable
... use cases are different things
... smart quotes are language dependent, for example (and language => locale in many cases)
... so smart quotes make some sense perhaps
... but bidi use case is not locale dependent

addison: input locale != system locale

mati: not sure indicator for first use case is same as what's needed for second case
... mixing things together

aharon: usually don't indicate what language I'm typing, but still need to type documents in various languages (he, ru, en, etc)

mati: but might use same keyboard for en, fr, de
... don't have to switch keyboards to type for example a lot of latin script languages
... it's a cultural preference connected to current content language, not the keyboard

aharon: system locale is not indicative there either

mati: in hebrew layout you can input latin (ltr) text from it too
... I don't think it's a good indicator for smart quotes

norbert: matter of documentation... here's a facility, insufficient in and of itself, but can be useful
... interesting to see if there is another use case in which the input language can be used more specifically

addison: maybe change speller if the key event indicates a keyboard change?

<scribe> ACTION: Aharon: draft text proposal for keyboard language/input locale attribute for DOM3 key events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html#action02]

HTTP Content-language

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/214

norbert: was in a meeting with mnot a few weeks ago
... discussing content language
... he wrote a ticket, so what do we want in HTTP spec

(quoting) Some people have interpreted the "of the intended audience" as meaning that this header indicates the language of the user, not the language of the content. As a result (for better or worse), current practice in the i18n community is to ignore this header (although there are other reasons, e.g., the lack of accuracy in the event of multiple languages being present). Proposal: remove "the intended audience for"

richard: aligning with HTML @lang doesn't make sense
... intended as metadata, not as document processing language
... think it's a bad idea

norbert: mnot@ thinks it might be editing error, but you're saying this is intentional?

richard: yes, it is a way of specifying information about langauges in document as a whole
... the intended audience

norbert: is anyone using as intended?

richard: when content negotiation happens, it is filled in based on accept-language (etc)

norbert: any user agents use this?

richard: there are some browsers that start to interpret
... such as choosing fonts for CJK, or :lang styling

addison: TMS or CMS systems can/do use it??
... not necessarily broken?

richard: some implementations do odd things, such as assign multiple langauges to all content in a document
... let's keep these things distinct and clear and separate
... roy fielding
... look for Issue-88 in html archive for examples

<scribe> chair: do we want to take a position on this?

norbert: proposal: don't remove "intended audience" and make clear that it is not document processing language

addison: think that http today says something like that (not the same as indicating all languages used in content)

<scribe> chair: any objections to this being our position?

<r12a> [[

<r12a> The docs at

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang

<r12a> are correct. It would be best if HTML5 didn't break them

<r12a> and all of the systems that depend on those semantics being

<r12a> part of the Web architecture.

<r12a> ]]

<Aharon> I am in favor

norbert: +1

addison: +1

richard: +1

none opposed

<fsasaki> fine by me too

<najib> Me too

<scribe> ACTION: Norbert: update ticket for httpbis to indicate our WG's position [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html#action03]

<r12a> [[

<r12a> The HTTP headers refer to the entire representation. If the

<r12a> representation is intended to have an audience of multiple

<r12a> languages, as is often the case when side-by-side translation

<r12a> is desired or mandated, then the content should be labeled

<r12a> appropriately. That use case is often found in government

<r12a> documents, poetry, lieder, language lessons, dictionaries, etc.

<r12a> I would expect HTML content to be tagged as a single language,

<r12a> if any, at some element level, whereas meta and link should

<r12a> support multiple languages at the resource or representation

<r12a> level.

<r12a> ]]

AOB?

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: addison: blurb the -u- extension last call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Aharon: draft text proposal for keyboard language/input locale attribute for DOM3 key events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Norbert: update ticket for httpbis to indicate our WG's position [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html#action03]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/07/14 17:28:23 $

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Addison Phillips
Found ScribeNick: aphillip
Default Present: +972.7.474.6aaaa, +44.141.888.aabb, Richard, David, aphillip, +972.5.225.5aacc, +1.415.283.aadd, matial, Norbert, Aharon, [IPcaller], Felix
Present: +972.7.474.6aaaa +44.141.888.aabb Richard David aphillip +972.5.225.5aacc +1.415.283.aadd matial Norbert Aharon [IPcaller] Felix
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Jul/0000.html
Got date from IRC log name: 14 Jul 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html
People with action items: addison aharon for httpbis norbert ticket update

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