See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 24 June 2010
<kford> /me Jeanne do you know the phone status?
<jeanne> no phone numbers from UK and FR.
<jeanne> you might as well make that the first item on the agenda.
<patrickhlauke> is the call still going ahead via zakim bridge?
<jeanne> yes, but only the US number is working
<patrickhlauke> it's not reading the code for some reason
<kford> Jeanne says the phone is still not working.
<jeanne> the US number is not taking the code? I know there is a problem with the UK and FR numbers taking the code.
<patrickhlauke> nope not accepting the code from my end
<patrickhlauke> UK end
<kford> So, I think we are going to have to try skype.
<patrickhlauke> any alternative numbers?
<patrickhlauke> username patrick_h_lauke - boringly enough
<jeanne> 1 617.761.6200 is the US number
<patrickhlauke> yes i skype: patrick_h_lauke
<patrickhlauke> i'm set to only allow calls from contacts...kelly you may have to quickly request to be my friend or something
<kford> group resolving phone and talking.
#1 Proposal for 2.1.5. Implementation Document, from Simon
All votes are accept or neutral.
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See punctuation changes from Kim [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-405 - Add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See punctuation changes from Kim [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01].
#2 Proposal for 3.12.3 Provide alternative views, from Simon
Patrick asks if there are implementations. Simon knows of none yet.
Greg is wary of making it Level A with no good implementations, but we can filter is at a later stage if there are still no implementations.
Patrick agrees.
General agreement on Greg's proposed simplified wording of the SC plus the Intent paragraph.
Kelly recommends reducing from Level A to AA.
Patrick agrees AA or AAA, noting it's really remedial for when the content is badly designed and doesn't sufficiently convey the information.
Simon would accept AA but would prefer not AAA.
Kelly notes that 508 Refresh includes WCAG through Level AA, meaning AA no longer automatically means "ignore this" as it used to.
Simon suggests we should lead rather than follow, motivating UA developers to add features they don't have yet.
Jeanne explains that W3 requires two real-world implementations for each SC.
Patrick asks if we have info on how widespread the problem is (content that cannot be used without this feature).
Greg suggests that the difference between A and AA is the latter is for critical, base-level expectations.
Simon agrees with AA.
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon, including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent paragraph. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change the level to AA. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-406 - Update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon, including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent paragraph. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change the level to AA. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01].
Kelly suggests including as AA and in future meeting discuss better criteria and process for us to decide on level for SC.
Jeanne notes that WCAG found it very difficult to come up with hard and fast rules.
<kford> issue: do we need to define how we reach our level ratings?
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-71 - Do we need to define how we reach our level ratings? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/71/edit .
Kim suggests that many UA have thumbnail views, as in Acrobat Reader or PowerPoint, that she thinks would comply with this.
Greg wouldn't have though they would have complied, meaning that it's still too ambiguous.
Simon explains that he was trying to simplify the original 3.3.1, felt it was 3 separate issues, one about relationships was already covered in 4.7.1.
For example, getting info on where you were in a table is similar to learning where you are in a document hierarchy.
<sharper> 4.7.1 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation: Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content, and the path of nodes leading from the root of any content hierarchy to that position, thereby aiding structured navigation by enhancing a users comprehension of their position (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A)
Greg suggested starting with approving the high-level intent, and general agreement.
Greg suggests moving the section "thereby..." into the Intent section.
<jeanne> +1
No objections to moving the "thereby..." into Intent.
<kford> ACTION: SH to write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update 4.7.1 with the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-407 - Update 4.7.1 with the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01].
<kford> ACTION: SHarper to write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-408 - Write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-07-01].
Kelly: resuming discussion from a
few weeks ago about how to record which user agents implement
which success criteria.
... Greg wrote a program to turn the document into a
spreadsheet, and Kelly tried to share that on live.com, but
running into problems with permissions, etc.
Kelly surveys the group on who has Live IDs.
He asked everyone to send him their Live IDs.
Kelly notes that he has not been able to successfully use Google Docs with his screen reader.
Live.com would let him use Excel to edit the document rather than a Web interface.
Some members are still using Excel 2003; Kelly will find out if that's supported.
<patrickhlauke> simon suggests www.getdropbox.com
Kim notes Google Docs has version control and revision history, which is good when a group is editing.
Kelly will send a sample spreadsheet to the list for people to look at. He'll also look into distribution/sharing solutions as discussed.
Kelly congratulates everyone for getting the new working draft published last week.
He stresses the need to recruit reviewers...now.
Jeanne notes that it really slows down the process if a document has to go to last call twice, as in if too much feedback doesn't come in until last call.
Jeanne and Kelly say comments should be in by July 29.
Discussion of how sometimes working group members can forward comments from reviewers who wish to remain anonymous.
<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to send an email to the list with the links and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-409 - Send an email to the list with the links and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01].
Kim reports on her 5-minute presentation, where she gave three specific users as test cases, and tied it to mainstream usability.
Everyone came up with use cases, with 7 total, broke into small groups that created 19 that were then voted on.
Top three are: 1) speech commands are hard to remember, leading to "adjust and shar"
2) Focus issues.
3) Undo.
Elements of two of those ended up in other proposals.
Elements of undo and redo, a participant pointed out other groups had been working on that issue.
People resonated that users need more control.
A number of people called out usability as issues they had gained a lot of insight into as a result of Kim's efforts.
One person suggested having accessibility folks work on good defaults, along the lines of accessibility being a good test bed for all usability.
Jeanne has noted that sometimes getting small numbers of members together they can crank through a lot of work on revisions, implementation details, etc.
<kford> we seem to have lost the phone.
<kford> Do you all hear us?
Jeanne says we need to speed up progress on the Implementation document. On ATAG a small group got together for a few days and wrote the whole thing, which was later approved by the wider group.
Jeanne asks if there are preferences between a formal face-to-face, or have an informal document where people can just work. Either could allow phone participation.
A number of people would have difficulty traveling this summer, but pretty much everyone could block out time for remote work.
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to create a survey of dates when there could be a Implementation Writer's Meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-410 - Create a survey of dates when there could be a Implementation Writer's Meeting [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01].
Jeanne will do a survey to try to find dates that work.
Kelly exhorts everyone to review their action items.
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