None.
12:20:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/18-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/18-rdfa-irc ←
12:20:53 <manu> trackbot, setup telecon
Manu Sporny: trackbot, setup telecon ←
12:20:53 <trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←
12:21:58 <manu> trackbot, status
Manu Sporny: trackbot, status ←
12:23:40 <manu> trackbot, prepare telecon
Manu Sporny: trackbot, prepare telecon ←
12:23:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
12:23:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
12:23:45 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←
12:23:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
12:23:46 <trackbot> Date: 18 March 2010
13:21:04 <manu> zakim, this will be rdfa
(No events recorded for 57 minutes)
Manu Sporny: zakim, this will be rdfa ←
13:21:04 <Zakim> ok, manu; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, manu; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 39 minutes ←
14:00:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 39 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
14:01:02 <Zakim> + +1.978.692.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.978.692.aaaa ←
14:01:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:01:32 <manu> zakim, I am IPcaller
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am IPcaller ←
14:01:32 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller] ←
14:02:39 <Zakim> +McCarron
Zakim IRC Bot: +McCarron ←
14:03:24 <Zakim> + +0208761aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +0208761aabb ←
14:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.585.278.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.585.278.aacc ←
14:04:07 <jeffs> zakim, aacc is jeffs
Jeffrey Sonstein: zakim, aacc is jeffs ←
14:04:07 <Zakim> +jeffs; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jeffs; got it ←
14:05:39 <manu> scribenick: msporny
(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)
14:05:56 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
14:05:56 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
14:05:58 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:06:28 <Steven> zakim, mute me
Steven Pemberton: zakim, mute me ←
14:06:28 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should now be muted ←
14:07:05 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is here? ←
14:07:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.978.692.aaaa, [IPcaller], McCarron, +0208761aabb, jeffs, Steven (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.978.692.aaaa, [IPcaller], McCarron, +0208761aabb, jeffs, Steven (muted) ←
14:07:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, RobW, jeffs, ShaneM, ivan, manu, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Steven, RobW, jeffs, ShaneM, ivan, manu, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot ←
14:07:42 <RobW> zakim, I am +1.978.692.aaaa
Robert Weir: zakim, I am +1.978.692.aaaa ←
14:07:42 <Zakim> +RobW; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +RobW; got it ←
14:05:40 <manu> Present: Jeffrey Sonstein, Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck, Robert Weir, Shane McCarron, Steven
14:05:41 <manu> Chair: Manu Sporny
14:05:42 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0122.html
14:07:44 <manu> Manu: Let's skip action items, to get as much technical work done today as possible.
Manu Sporny: Let's skip action items, to get as much technical work done today as possible. ←
14:07:56 <manu> Topic: Merging prefix/token concept to "list of mappings"
14:08:17 <manu> Manu: Mark, can you give a quick overview of this?
Manu Sporny: Mark, can you give a quick overview of this? ←
14:08:24 <manu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0105.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0105.html ←
14:08:57 <manu> Mark: The idea is that you can already use a prefix just like you would a token. You could already create tokens for "creator" "knows" "name", whatever using the current syntax.
Mark Birbeck: The idea is that you can already use a prefix just like you would a token. You could already create tokens for "creator" "knows" "name", whatever using the current syntax. ←
14:09:26 <manu> Mark: There's nothing to stop you from doing: xmlns:knows="http.../knows" and then rel="knows:"
Mark Birbeck: There's nothing to stop you from doing: xmlns:knows="http.../knows" and then rel="knows:" ←
14:09:52 <manu> Mark: It's kind of annoying that we can't just do rel="knows" - it seems like a natural move.
Mark Birbeck: It's kind of annoying that we can't just do rel="knows" - it seems like a natural move. ←
14:10:22 <manu> Manu: Anybody object to doing this?
Manu Sporny: Anybody object to doing this? ←
14:11:48 <manu> Mark: There is an interesting discussion about who our audience is - is it the people that are using RDFa 1.0 happily, or is it the beginner web authors? I think it's the latter.
Mark Birbeck: There is an interesting discussion about who our audience is - is it the people that are using RDFa 1.0 happily, or is it the beginner web authors? I think it's the latter. ←
14:12:16 <manu> Manu: I do too, I think that this is a natural step for us to take - people wouldn't need to understand two concepts... just one - mappings.
Manu Sporny: I do too, I think that this is a natural step for us to take - people wouldn't need to understand two concepts... just one - mappings. ←
14:12:52 <manu> Mark: Right, so who is the next phase of our work directed at? We need to make it as easy as possible for web authors.
Mark Birbeck: Right, so who is the next phase of our work directed at? We need to make it as easy as possible for web authors. ←
14:13:27 <manu> Mark: I think they're not objecting to the idea, just whether or not we should talk about them in the same breath.
Mark Birbeck: I think they're not objecting to the idea, just whether or not we should talk about them in the same breath. ←
14:13:30 <jeffs> +1 to keeping tight focus on authors/developers as primary
Jeffrey Sonstein: +1 to keeping tight focus on authors/developers as primary ←
14:14:19 <jeffs> IMHO better to get them on here to talk to whole group
Jeffrey Sonstein: IMHO better to get them on here to talk to whole group ←
14:14:36 <jeffs> would help clarify for us all
Jeffrey Sonstein: would help clarify for us all ←
14:15:58 <manu> Manu: maybe we should talk with Ben at a different time, speed the process up since he can only communicate via e-mail.
Manu Sporny: maybe we should talk with Ben at a different time, speed the process up since he can only communicate via e-mail. ←
14:17:08 <manu> Mark: We definitely want to make progress and the calls aren't getting us moving fast enough, so let's try to schedule another call with Ben and Ivan.
Mark Birbeck: We definitely want to make progress and the calls aren't getting us moving fast enough, so let's try to schedule another call with Ben and Ivan. ←
14:17:17 <manu> Topic: RDF vs. key/value for expanding the "list of mappings"
14:18:05 <manu> Mark: There are three routes.
Mark Birbeck: There are three routes. ←
14:18:27 <manu> Mark: One is do RDF only, the other is do key/value only, the third is do key/value first - and then build on top of that using RDF.
Mark Birbeck: One is do RDF only, the other is do key/value only, the third is do key/value first - and then build on top of that using RDF. ←
14:18:39 <manu> Mark: The discussion to this point is good.
Mark Birbeck: The discussion to this point is good. ←
14:19:08 <manu> Mark: If we use the current mechanism, we end up with a ton of xmlns: definitions at the top.
Mark Birbeck: If we use the current mechanism, we end up with a ton of xmlns: definitions at the top. ←
14:19:23 <manu> Mark: There are tons of namespaces declared at the top - we have to realize that the problem is this.
Mark Birbeck: There are tons of namespaces declared at the top - we have to realize that the problem is this. ←
14:19:36 <manu> Mark: We need to figure out a different way to define this in an external document.
Mark Birbeck: We need to figure out a different way to define this in an external document. ←
14:19:52 <manu> Mark: It's just like the <script> tag - it's either in the current document, or an external document.
Mark Birbeck: It's just like the <script> tag - it's either in the current document, or an external document. ←
14:20:06 <manu> Mark: So after we understand that that's the problem we're addressing...
Mark Birbeck: So after we understand that that's the problem we're addressing... ←
14:20:21 <jeffs> danger will robinson, danger. IMHO having a separate doc of what is essentially vocab metadata is A Bad Idea
Jeffrey Sonstein: danger will robinson, danger. IMHO having a separate doc of what is essentially vocab metadata is A Bad Idea ←
14:20:41 <manu> Mark: So the next step is how to do the token mappings?
Mark Birbeck: So the next step is how to do the token mappings? ←
14:21:18 <manu> Mark: There are lots of peripheral discussions - what happens when the documents don't exist, what happens if an RDFa 1.0 parser parses an RDFa 1.1 document, etc.
Mark Birbeck: There are lots of peripheral discussions - what happens when the documents don't exist, what happens if an RDFa 1.0 parser parses an RDFa 1.1 document, etc. ←
14:23:27 <manu> Mark: Keeping token declaration and vocabularies apart may be good for the simpler solution.
Mark Birbeck: Keeping token declaration and vocabularies apart may be good for the simpler solution. ←
14:23:44 <manu> Manu: So, what does the vocabulary look like? That could take months to discuss.
Manu Sporny: So, what does the vocabulary look like? That could take months to discuss. ←
14:23:48 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:23:57 <manu> ack me
ack me ←
14:24:12 <jeffs> q+ jeffs
Jeffrey Sonstein: q+ jeffs ←
14:25:31 <manu> Manu: I don't understand why the vocabulary would take so long to specify?
Manu Sporny: I don't understand why the vocabulary would take so long to specify? ←
14:25:38 <Steven> I note that the vocabulary document already uses RDFa to define vocabulary
Steven Pemberton: I note that the vocabulary document already uses RDFa to define vocabulary ←
14:25:50 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab ←
14:25:56 <manu> ack jeffs
ack jeffs ←
14:26:22 <Steven> q+
Steven Pemberton: q+ ←
14:26:44 <Steven> ack me
Steven Pemberton: ack me ←
14:26:48 <manu> Jeff: When we start talking about an external document so that the processor can do it's job, that starts making me very nervous. I think xmlns: works well.
Jeffrey Sonstein: When we start talking about an external document so that the processor can do it's job, that starts making me very nervous. I think xmlns: works well. ←
14:27:04 <jeffs> q-
Jeffrey Sonstein: q- ←
14:27:06 <manu> Steven: I do like just using xmlns: - our current vocab document is already defined in RDFa.
Steven Pemberton: I do like just using xmlns: - our current vocab document is already defined in RDFa. ←
14:27:10 <manu> Shane: That's true.
Shane McCarron: That's true. ←
14:27:53 <manu> Manu: Are you saying that we should use that same mechanism?
Manu Sporny: Are you saying that we should use that same mechanism? ←
14:28:14 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:28:26 <jeffs> +1 for simplicity of xmlns in doc for sake of authors as well
Jeffrey Sonstein: +1 for simplicity of xmlns in doc for sake of authors as well ←
14:28:47 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:29:10 <Steven> zakim, [IP is manu
Steven Pemberton: zakim, [IP is manu ←
14:29:10 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
14:29:18 <Steven> q?
Steven Pemberton: q? ←
14:29:19 <markbirbeck> q+ To say that the current vocab document doesn't define tokens.
Mark Birbeck: q+ To say that the current vocab document doesn't define tokens. ←
14:31:01 <Steven> q+ to say Oh yes it does
Steven Pemberton: q+ to say Oh yes it does ←
14:31:11 <jeffs> could we invite a Google person to attend a teleconf & talk w us about this issue?
Jeffrey Sonstein: could we invite a Google person to attend a teleconf & talk w us about this issue? ←
14:31:16 <manu> Steven: I do like the simplicity of just using xmlns:, but we have also described something in RDFa before.
Steven Pemberton: I do like the simplicity of just using xmlns:, but we have also described something in RDFa before. ←
14:31:24 <Steven> ack mark
Steven Pemberton: ack mark ←
14:31:24 <Zakim> markbirbeck, you wanted to say that the current vocab document doesn't define tokens.
Zakim IRC Bot: markbirbeck, you wanted to say that the current vocab document doesn't define tokens. ←
14:31:36 <Steven> ack [
Steven Pemberton: ack [ ←
14:32:17 <Steven> ack me
Steven Pemberton: ack me ←
14:32:17 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to say Oh yes it does
Zakim IRC Bot: Steven, you wanted to say Oh yes it does ←
14:32:38 <ShaneM> Token definition: <dt id="bookmark" about="#bookmark" typeof="rdf:Property">bookmark</dt> <dd about="#bookmark" property="rdfs:comment" datatype="xsd:string"><span>bookmark</span> refers to a bookmark - a link to a key entry point within an extended document. </dd>
Shane McCarron: Token definition: <dt id="bookmark" about="#bookmark" typeof="rdf:Property">bookmark</dt> <dd about="#bookmark" property="rdfs:comment" datatype="xsd:string"><span>bookmark</span> refers to a bookmark - a link to a key entry point within an extended document. </dd> ←
14:32:46 <manu> Manu: I don't think just keeping xmlns: and not having a different mechanism is helpful to beginner web authors.
Manu Sporny: I don't think just keeping xmlns: and not having a different mechanism is helpful to beginner web authors. ←
14:33:05 <manu> Mark: The XHTML vocab document tokens are not defined in RDFa.
Mark Birbeck: The XHTML vocab document tokens are not defined in RDFa. ←
14:33:29 <manu> Shane: I disagree
Shane McCarron: I disagree ←
14:33:31 <manu> Steven: me too
Steven Pemberton: me too ←
14:33:54 <manu> Steven: The relationships that are generated are fairly convincing.
Steven Pemberton: The relationships that are generated are fairly convincing. ←
14:34:26 <manu> Mark: Which triple tells you that?
Mark Birbeck: Which triple tells you that? ←
14:34:38 <manu> Steven: The one that says it's a member of rel/rev properties?
Steven Pemberton: The one that says it's a member of rel/rev properties? ←
14:35:04 <manu> Mark: All the members are the @about values - which are URIs
Mark Birbeck: All the members are the @about values - which are URIs ←
14:35:24 <ShaneM> triples for appendix in the vocab:
Shane McCarron: triples for appendix in the vocab: ←
14:35:25 <ShaneM> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#member> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#relrev-properties> . <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#Property> . <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#member> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#relrev-properties> . <http://www.w3.org
Shane McCarron: <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#member> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#relrev-properties> . <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#Property> . <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#member> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#relrev-properties> . <http://www.w3.org ←
14:35:27 <manu> Steven: You have a #appendix value - we're saying that this is a rel/rev property and therefore we could say that you take the hash bit off and that's your token.
Steven Pemberton: You have a #appendix value - we're saying that this is a rel/rev property and therefore we could say that you take the hash bit off and that's your token. ←
14:36:08 <ShaneM> I agree with Mark - we didn't make it crystal clear. We could have, but we didn't.
Shane McCarron: I agree with Mark - we didn't make it crystal clear. We could have, but we didn't. ←
14:36:35 <manu> Mark: You couldn't follow your nose to it.
Mark Birbeck: You couldn't follow your nose to it. ←
14:37:09 <markbirbeck> http://backplanejs.appspot.com/rdfa?url=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
Mark Birbeck: http://backplanejs.appspot.com/rdfa?url=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ ←
14:37:10 <manu> Manu: Right, but you could just add one keyword and make that happen, right?
Manu Sporny: Right, but you could just add one keyword and make that happen, right? ←
14:37:25 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:37:54 <manu> Mark: Yes, that is one proposal, one way of going at it.
Mark Birbeck: Yes, that is one proposal, one way of going at it. ←
14:39:39 <manu> Mark: I'm saying we need both - @token, and an RDF vocabulary
Mark Birbeck: I'm saying we need both - @token, and an RDF vocabulary ←
14:39:57 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
14:42:32 <manu> Manu: Would you be okay with @token if it didn't cause keywords to be pulled into other documents via @profile?
Manu Sporny: Would you be okay with @token if it didn't cause keywords to be pulled into other documents via @profile? ←
14:43:09 <manu> Mark: No - I think this mechanism should be used to define tokens that get imported via @profile.
Mark Birbeck: No - I think this mechanism should be used to define tokens that get imported via @profile. ←
14:43:16 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:43:40 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
14:44:02 <jeffs> I often talk to my classes about the benefits of defining things so there is more than 1 way to accomplish the same things (ppl think about things differently), *and* the dangers of subtle differences creeping in
Jeffrey Sonstein: I often talk to my classes about the benefits of defining things so there is more than 1 way to accomplish the same things (ppl think about things differently), *and* the dangers of subtle differences creeping in ←
14:44:46 <manu> Manu: What about the issue of @token being processed differently from how all other RDFa attributes are processed - with context. We're saying that @token doesn't have context in @profile documents, but it does have context in author documents, right?
Manu Sporny: What about the issue of @token being processed differently from how all other RDFa attributes are processed - with context. We're saying that @token doesn't have context in @profile documents, but it does have context in author documents, right? ←
14:44:47 <manu> Manu: <html>...<body>...<div><div><div><div token="foaf: http://xmlns...foaf/">...
Manu Sporny: <html>...<body>...<div><div><div><div token="foaf: http://xmlns...foaf/">... ←
14:44:55 <manu> Manu: That's in the profile document.
Manu Sporny: That's in the profile document. ←
14:46:01 <manu> Manu: So, if that's used in the author's document via @profile, would foaf: be defined?
Manu Sporny: So, if that's used in the author's document via @profile, would foaf: be defined? ←
14:47:19 <manu> Manu: If so, then there is a mismatch for how we process that attribute - the context isn't the same in the @profile document and the current authors document.
Manu Sporny: If so, then there is a mismatch for how we process that attribute - the context isn't the same in the @profile document and the current authors document. ←
14:47:47 <ShaneM> What happens if an external document also references another profile?
Shane McCarron: What happens if an external document also references another profile? ←
14:48:38 <manu> Mark: Yes, there is different context for when @token is imported by @profile - and when it's used in the authors document. In the profile document, it is global scope, in the author document it's element scope
Mark Birbeck: Yes, there is different context for when @token is imported by @profile - and when it's used in the authors document. In the profile document, it is global scope, in the author document it's element scope ←
14:48:50 <manu> Mark: but we need to create something simple - go back to basics...
Mark Birbeck: but we need to create something simple - go back to basics... ←
14:48:54 <jeffs> manu: I must admit to being confused on how your div example is better than <f:div xmlns:f="http://xmlns...foaf/">... ???
Manu Sporny: I must admit to being confused on how your div example is better than <f:div xmlns:f="http://xmlns...foaf/">... ??? [ Scribe Assist by Jeffrey Sonstein ] ←
14:49:31 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:50:10 <manu> Shane: What tokens/prefixes get included in the collection that's being pulled into the parent document?
Shane McCarron: What tokens/prefixes get included in the collection that's being pulled into the parent document? ←
14:50:29 <manu> Shane: How deep do we go with the @profile imports? What happens when @profiles import other @profiles?
Shane McCarron: How deep do we go with the @profile imports? What happens when @profiles import other @profiles? ←
14:51:05 <manu> Mark: We could say @xmlns: doesn't get imported... and @token does.
Mark Birbeck: We could say @xmlns: doesn't get imported... and @token does. ←
14:51:41 <manu> Mark: If you want to be indexed by Google, you use the Google profile.
Mark Birbeck: If you want to be indexed by Google, you use the Google profile. ←
14:52:09 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:54:10 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:55:01 <manu> ack manu
ack manu ←
14:55:04 <manu> ack markbirbeck
ack markbirbeck ←
14:56:08 <manu> Manu: It seems to me that the RDFa Vocabulary solution doesn't make us create solutions that have all of these technical difficulties like context and which keywords can be pulled forward into profile documents and author documents.
Manu Sporny: It seems to me that the RDFa Vocabulary solution doesn't make us create solutions that have all of these technical difficulties like context and which keywords can be pulled forward into profile documents and author documents. ←
14:56:10 <manu> q+
q+ ←
14:56:53 <manu> Manu: for example, solving the context problem with @token seems like it has somewhat hack-ish solutions.
Manu Sporny: for example, solving the context problem with @token seems like it has somewhat hack-ish solutions. ←
14:59:39 <jeffs> seems like we need to continue to talk this through in the next mtg
Jeffrey Sonstein: seems like we need to continue to talk this through in the next mtg ←
15:00:00 <ShaneM> I'm not really clear whether the external document defines terms, prefixes, or both?
Shane McCarron: I'm not really clear whether the external document defines terms, prefixes, or both? ←
15:01:22 <jeffs> IMHO we have actually made very good progress today, clarification furthers
Jeffrey Sonstein: IMHO we have actually made very good progress today, clarification furthers ←
15:01:32 <markbirbeck> +1 jeffs :)
Mark Birbeck: +1 jeffs :) ←
15:01:43 <Zakim> -McCarron
Zakim IRC Bot: -McCarron ←
15:01:45 <Zakim> - +0208761aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +0208761aabb ←
15:01:46 <Zakim> -RobW
Zakim IRC Bot: -RobW ←
15:01:54 <Zakim> -jeffs
Zakim IRC Bot: -jeffs ←
15:01:59 <Steven> Regrets for me next week
Steven Pemberton: Regrets for me next week ←
15:02:04 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#2) generated 2010-03-18 15:44:13 UTC by 'msporny', comments: 'Updated link to Agenda'