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12:20:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/18-rdfa-irc
12:20:53 <manu> trackbot, setup telecon
12:20:53 <trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, setup telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
12:21:58 <manu> trackbot, status
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12:23:40 <manu> trackbot, prepare telecon
12:23:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
12:23:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
12:23:45 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:23:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
12:23:46 <trackbot> Date: 18 March 2010
12:58:02 <ivan> ivan has joined #rdfa
13:00:40 <ivan> correct
13:00:55 <ivan> I have just arrived to MIT and will have a meeting for the day in 15 minutes...
13:16:36 <ivan> ivan has joined #rdfa
13:21:04 <manu> zakim, this will be rdfa
13:21:04 <Zakim> ok, manu; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
13:49:54 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
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14:00:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
14:01:02 <Zakim> + +1.978.692.aaaa
14:01:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:32 <manu> zakim, I am IPcaller
14:01:32 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:02:39 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:03:22 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
14:03:24 <Zakim> + +0208761aabb
14:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.585.278.aacc
14:04:07 <jeffs> zakim, aacc is jeffs
14:04:07 <Zakim> +jeffs; got it
14:05:39 <manu> scribenick: msporny
14:05:56 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:05:56 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:05:58 <Zakim> +Steven
14:06:28 <Steven> zakim, mute me
14:06:28 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
14:07:05 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:07:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.978.692.aaaa, [IPcaller], McCarron, +0208761aabb, jeffs, Steven (muted)
14:07:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, RobW, jeffs, ShaneM, ivan, manu, RRSAgent, Zakim, trackbot
14:07:13 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
14:07:42 <RobW> zakim, I am +1.978.692.aaaa
14:07:42 <Zakim> +RobW; got it
14:07:44 <manu> Manu: Let's skip action items, to get as much technical work done today as possible.
14:07:56 <manu> Topic: Merging prefix/token concept to "list of mappings"
14:08:17 <manu> Manu: Mark, can you give a quick overview of this?
14:08:24 <manu>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0105.html
14:08:57 <manu> Mark: The idea is that you can already use a prefix just like you would a token. You could already create tokens for "creator" "knows" "name", whatever using the current syntax.
14:09:26 <manu> Mark: There's nothing to stop you from doing: xmlns:knows="http.../knows" and then rel="knows:"
14:09:52 <manu> Mark: It's kind of annoying that we can't just do rel="knows" - it seems like a natural move.
14:10:22 <manu> Manu: Anybody object to doing this?
14:11:48 <manu> Mark: There is an interesting discussion about who our audience is.
14:12:16 <manu> Manu: I think that this is a natural step for us to take - people wouldn't need to understand two concepts... just one - mappings.
14:12:52 <manu> Mark: Right, so who is the next phase of our work directed at? We need to make it as easy as possible for web authors.
14:13:27 <manu> Mark: I think they're not objecting to the idea, just whether or not we should talk about them in the same breath.
14:13:30 <jeffs> +1 to keeping tight focus on authors/developers as primary 
14:14:19 <jeffs> IMHO better to get them on here to talk to whole group
14:14:36 <jeffs> would help clarify for us all
14:15:58 <manu> Manu: maybe we should talk with Ben at a different time, speed the process up at a different time.
14:16:03 <jeffs> <grin/>
14:17:08 <manu> Mark: We definitely want to make progress and the calls aren't getting us moving, so let's try to schedule another call.
14:17:17 <manu> Topic: RDF vs. key/value for expanding the "list of mappings"
14:18:05 <manu> Mark: There are three routes.
14:18:27 <manu> Mark: One is do RDF only, the other is do key/value only, the third is do key/value first - and then build on top of that using RDF.
14:18:39 <manu> Mark: The discussion to this point is good - let's go back a bit.
14:19:08 <manu> Mark: If we use the current mechanism, we end up with a ton of xmlns: definitions at the top.
14:19:23 <manu> Mark: There are tons of namespaces declared at the top - we have to realize that the problem is this.
14:19:36 <manu> Mark: We need to figure out a different way to define this in an external document.
14:19:52 <manu> Mark: It's just like the <script> tag - it's either in the current document, or an external document.
14:20:06 <manu> Mark: So after we understand that that's the problem we're addressing...
14:20:21 <jeffs> danger will robinson, danger. IMHO having a separate doc of what is essentially vocab metadata is A Bad Idea
14:20:41 <manu> Mark: So the next step is how to do the token mappings?
14:21:18 <manu> Mark: There are lots of peripheral discussions - what happens when the documents don't exist, what happens if an RDFa 1.0 parser parses an RDfa 1.1 document, etc.
14:23:27 <manu> Mark: Keeping tokens and vocabularies apart may be good...
14:23:44 <manu> Manu: So, what does the vocabulary look like? That could take months to discuss.
14:23:48 <manu> q+
14:23:57 <manu> ack me
14:24:12 <jeffs> q+ jeffs
14:25:31 <manu> Manu: I don't understand why the vocabulary takes so long to specify?
14:25:38 <Steven> I note that the vocabulary document already uses RDFa to define vocabulary
14:25:50 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
14:25:56 <manu> ack jeffs
14:26:22 <Steven> q+
14:26:44 <Steven> ack me
14:26:48 <manu> Jeff: When we start talking about an external document so that the processor can do it's job, that starts making me very nervous. I think xmlns: works well.
14:27:04 <jeffs> q-
14:27:06 <manu> Steven: I do like just using xmlns: - our current vocab document is already defined in RDFa.
14:27:10 <manu> Shane: That's true.
14:27:53 <manu> Manu: Are you saying that we should use that same mechanism?
14:28:14 <manu> q+
14:28:26 <jeffs> +1 for simplicity of xmlns in doc for sake of authors as well
14:28:47 <markbirbeck> q+
14:29:10 <Steven> zakim, [IP is manu
14:29:10 <Zakim> +manu; got it
14:29:18 <Steven> q?
14:29:19 <markbirbeck> q+ To say that the current vocab document doesn't define tokens.
14:31:01 <Steven> q+ to say Oh yes it does
14:31:11 <jeffs> could we invite a Google person to attend a teleconf & talk w us about this issue?
14:31:16 <manu> Steven: I do like the simplicity of just using xmlns:, but we have also described something in RDFa before.
14:31:24 <Steven> ack mark
14:31:24 <Zakim> markbirbeck, you wanted to say that the current vocab document doesn't define tokens.
14:31:36 <Steven> ack [
14:32:17 <Steven> ack me
14:32:17 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to say Oh yes it does
14:32:38 <ShaneM> Token definition:   <dt id="bookmark" about="#bookmark" typeof="rdf:Property">bookmark</dt>     <dd about="#bookmark" property="rdfs:comment" datatype="xsd:string"><span>bookmark</span> refers to a bookmark - a link       to a key entry point within an extended document. </dd> 
14:32:46 <manu> Manu: I don't think just keeping xmlns: and not having a different mechanism is useful.
14:33:05 <manu> Mark: The XHTML vocab document is not defined in RDFa.
14:33:22 <manu> Mark: At least, the tokens aren't.
14:33:29 <manu> Shane: I disagree
14:33:31 <manu> Steven: me too
14:33:54 <manu> Steven: The relationships that are generated are fairly convincing.
14:34:26 <manu> Mark: Which triple tells you that?
14:34:38 <manu> Steven: The one that says it's a member of rel/rev properties?
14:35:04 <manu> Mark: All the members are the @about values - which are URIs
14:35:24 <ShaneM> triples for appendix in the vocab:
14:35:25 <ShaneM> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#member> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#relrev-properties> . <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#Property> . <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#appendix> <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#member> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#relrev-properties> . <http://www.w3.org
14:35:27 <manu> Steven: You have a #appendix value - we're saying that this is a rel/rev property and therefore we could say that you take the hash bit off.
14:36:08 <ShaneM> I agree with Mark - we didn't make it crystal clear.  We could have, but we didn't
14:36:35 <manu> Mark: You couldn't follow your nose to it.
14:37:09 <markbirbeck> http://backplanejs.appspot.com/rdfa?url=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
14:37:10 <manu> Manu: Right, but you could just add one keyword and make that happen, right?
14:37:25 <manu> q+
14:37:54 <manu> Mark: This is one proposal, one way of going at it.
14:39:39 <manu> Mark: I'm saying we need both - @token, and an RDF vocabulary
14:39:57 <manu> ack manu
14:42:32 <manu> Manu: Would you be okay with @token if it didn't define keywords into another document?
14:43:09 <manu> Mark: No - I think this mechanism should be used to define tokens that get imported via @profile.
14:43:16 <manu> q+
14:43:40 <manu> ack manu
14:44:02 <jeffs> I often talk to my classes about the benefits of defining things so there is more than 1 way to accomplish the same things (ppl think about things differently), *and* the dangers of subtle differences creeping in
14:44:47 <manu> Manu: <html>...<body>...<div><div><div><div token="foaf: http://xmlns...foaf/">...
14:44:55 <manu> Manu: That's in the profile document.
14:46:01 <manu> Manu: So, if that's used in the author's document, would foaf: be defined.
14:47:19 <manu> Manu: There's a mismatch for how we process that attribute - the context isn't the same in the @profile document and the current authors document.
14:47:47 <ShaneM> what happens if an external document also references another profile?
14:48:38 <manu> Mark: Yes, there is different context for when @token is imported by @profile - and when it's used in the authors document. global scope, vs. element scope
14:48:50 <manu> Mark: but we need to create something simple - go back to basics...
14:48:54 <jeffs> manu: I must admit to being confused on how your div example is better than <f:div xmlns:f="http://xmlns...foaf/">...  ???
14:49:31 <manu> q+
14:50:10 <manu> Shane: What tokens/prefixes get included in the collection that's being pulled into the parent document?
14:50:29 <manu> Shane: How deep do we go with the @profile imports? What happens when @profiles imports other @profiles?
14:51:05 <manu> Mark: We could say @xmlns: doesn't get imported... and @token does.
14:51:41 <manu> Mark: If you want to be indexed by Google, you use the Google profile.
14:52:09 <manu> q+
14:54:10 <markbirbeck> q+
14:55:01 <manu> ack manu
14:55:04 <manu> ack markbirbeck
14:56:08 <manu> Manu: It seems to me that the RDFa Vocabulary solution doesn't make us create solutions we don't need.
14:56:10 <manu> q+
14:56:53 <manu> Manu: for example, solving the context problem with @profile.
14:59:39 <jeffs> seems like we need to continue to talk this through in the next mtg
15:00:00 <ShaneM> I'm not really clear whether the external document defines terms, prefixes, or both?
15:01:22 <jeffs> IMHO we have actually made very good progress today, clarification furthers
15:01:32 <markbirbeck> +1 jeffs :)
15:01:43 <Zakim> -McCarron
15:01:45 <Zakim> - +0208761aabb
15:01:46 <Zakim> -RobW
15:01:54 <Zakim> -jeffs
15:01:59 <Steven> Regrets for me next week
15:02:04 <Zakim> -Steven
15:04:19 <Zakim> -manu
15:04:20 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:04:21 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.978.692.aaaa, [IPcaller], McCarron, +0208761aabb, +1.585.278.aacc, jeffs, Steven, RobW, manu
15:04:40 <Steven> Steven has left #rdfa
15:04:52 <ivan> ivan has left #rdfa
15:45:42 <manu> zakim, bye
15:45:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
15:45:45 <manu> rrsagent, bye
15:45:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items