Internationalization Teleconference

24 Feb 2010


See also: IRC log


Addison, Richard, Andrew, David, Aharon, Fantasai, Najib
Addison Phillips
Addison Phillips


Action Items

Richard: respond on our behalf to CSS on ruby issue

<scribe> in progress

Dan: update draft to support option C for specifying preferences in ws-i18n

Richard: while awaiting comments, port the document to W3C WG Note format and prepare for publication as a First Public Working Draft.

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/

basically done, some tweaks remain

link to follow

all, to review http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/BidiProposal and comment on public-i18n-core mailing list, with a view to agreeing to move forward with publication as FPWD on 22nd during telecon

Info Share

david: doing a review of MS WebExpressions3
... actually generates stds compliant

richard: above is the link to the note-ified bidi document
... Najib joined via IRC from Rabat (note to other attendees)...

Welcome Najib

HTML Issue-88


richard: discussion on html list
... hixie wants to change <meta ... content-language> to have only one language
... not how it works now
... hixie thinks they use it differently
... summary of various events as in email

addison: was surprised by hixie's latest reaction

andrew: he believes that older docs should be able to pass at html5
... change to <meta> would go against that

richard: this is meta information as opposed to attribute based information
... introduces more confusion, since the syntax changes
... and blurs the meta data usage
... will WG support comments

andrew: supports it

david: think the inconsistency argument belongs also

addison: I support it

<scribe> ACTION: richard: send WG response on Issue-88 based on your email to Hixie and HTML-WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html#action01]


richard: proposed edited rec through process
... domain leader: they reference RFC 3066 (or its successor)

<r12a> [BCP47]

<r12a> Tags for Identifying Languages, A. Phillips and M. Davis, Editors, September 2006.

<r12a> Available at http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt

richard: would make sense as PER to change to BCP 47

addison: that's the old date
... point to 5646

Bidi Proposal

<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/

note format of document, link above

today... start moving to FPWD

scribe: we gave WG a week to review
... after FPWD, wide announcement and receive comments

addison: separate comments list or winter?

richard: discussing with Aharon
... need to move to w3c list to support process
... thinking of using winter
... should there be separate IG list, now or later?

<Aharon> About 40 people on my list.

andrew: ask the 40 people what they prefer?

<Aharon> Good idea - will ask.

addison: it is proposed that we publish as FPWD
... are there any objections? anything we need to do first?

andrew: may need to do some things first
... trying to work out which part are initiated by consistency/bugs in browsers
... which are just good ideas
... and which are bad design workarounds
... and then some things where I think "should it work that way?"
... useful to publish wide to get more comments

richard: not necessary to be polished

andrew: yes, publish, but personally wondering if we'd be better off filing bugs; some things more developer stuff
... rahter than things to fix in html
... but some things need fixing in html5
... need to be more distinct about which things go where

richard: think its all good stuff
... and good to get into html5 spec
... tell implementers what they ought to do but trying to ensure they actually do it via html5
... otherwise vendors may not take action or may "innovate"

andrew: parts for developers should be more explicitly written for that audience

addison: useful to send explicit comment

fantasai: sent most of comments in via email
... one about algorithm and conformance implementations
... and the general confusion about having more than one
... and bdi not neutral

<scribe> chair: anyone against publishing as FPWD

fantasai: support publication

andrew: support moving forward

addison: +1

aharon: safely assume I do too

david: +1

<najib> +1

RESOLVED: publish bidi document as FPWD

richard: bring up idea about a second document more squarely targetted at CSS

aharon: interested in collaborating on it

addison: information for authors, perhaps tutorials? or what?

aharon: meant to help browser vendors implement better
... some things missing are
... control over kind of numerals to use

<fantasai> that would be a text-transform value

(such as using language to do numeric shaping)

aharon: left-right commonly used instead of start-end

<najib> There is a Bidi problem with CSS, display

<najib> Sorry

<najib> There is a Bidi problem with CSS, display inline.

aharon: just adding start-end doesn't solve problem, since ancestor may affect it
... float start or end depends on context, padding, etc.
... some tools exist to mirror a CSS file offline
... should not require an offline tool to do it
... explicit control over scroll bar location

fantasai: css wg has carefully avoided scroll bar positioning
... selectors based on direction of element
... would have to do that at selectors matching time
... performance impact could be large
... start/end properties has been discussed but not considered urgent
... no objection for stuff like float
... but significant cascading complications for stuff like padding (and vast number thereof)
... problems (rather than features) should be done sooner rather than later
... as CSS2.1 wants to be done
... do in next month or so

r12a: sounds like a lot to be done, but needs more thought
... a discuss right now on CSS WG list on start-end
... @ f2f about 18months ago floated to CSS FTF WG mtg
... css folks felt people might not need that?
... describe what you want to be able to do and make case for that it would help a lot
... CSS needs to hear from field users

<Zakim> najib, you wanted to ask if scroll bar is matter of GUI, rather than style

fantasai: kind of affects both
... if author knows more content will appear, want to force scroll bars (or hide them)
... to prevent layout jumping

r12a: default behavior part of GUI
... but maybe override that??
... text transform is like that too?

fantasai: send any problems to CSS 2.1 right away
... and then do feature requests

<Aharon> Would it be possible for fantasai to provide links to existing work and discussions on relevant topics?

r12a: real showstoppers
... so that css can close down

fantasai: be sure that all 2.1 issues get to them in next month or two

<fantasai> Issues that impact HTML may also impact CSS

<Aharon> Thank you!

<fantasai> CSS can't be inconsistent with HTML

<fantasai> so, e.g., if white space behavior is changed for HTML it has to be changed for CSS too

fantasai: think a document like the html focused document would be very useful

Aharon: can fantasai help me identify what should be directed to CSS?

fantasai: whitespace, bullets, ... anything that doesn't pertain to markup rather than html

aharon: will make first pass to identify CSS issues
... so if you can proofread, that would be really great

<fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#direction


IRC comments from Najib, moved from time period during previous topic, but related to this one

<najib> About the bidi proposal.

<najib> Happy to see it as WG proposal.

<najib> At a first reading, I have some remarks about the examples given in section 2.1

<najib> I think we can summarize them into more simple problem statement.

<najib> I'm going to send an email about it.

<najib> I'll send other feedbacks later on.

<najib> That's all.

addison: great! thank you. look forward to the email.

ITS and Widgets


addison to attend too?

it's at 6AM

richard: discussed with ITS
... could drop namespace as long as behavior is there
... e.g. span and dir rather than its:span
... showed me example with both dir and its:dir


<scribe> ACTION: richard: publish FPWD of Bidi WG-Note and complete all transreq requirements pertaining thereto [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html#action02]

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: richard: publish FPWD of Bidi WG-Note and complete all transreq requirements pertaining thereto [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: richard: send WG response on Issue-88 based on your email to Hixie and HTML-WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2010/02/25 21:18:15 $