HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

04 Feb 2010

See also: IRC log


Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Rich, kliehm, +1.408.307.aaaa, +0154558aabb, Kelly_Ford, Bruce_Lawson, +1.514.312.aacc, Steve_Faulkner, Ben_Caldwell, Eric_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Sean_Hayes, [Microsoft], Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton, Wendy_Chisholm, Mike, Jon_Gunderson, +1.609.482.aadd, Markku_Hakkinen, +0190561aaee, SCain
Janina_Sajka, Aurélien, Levy, Joshue_O'Connor, Laura_Carlson, Silvia_Pfeiffer


<trackbot> Date: 04 February 2010

<kliehm> trackbot, start conference

<trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 04 February 2010

<dboudreau> mornin' everyone

<dboudreau> i'm on the call too now

<dboudreau> correct

<paulc> tx

<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<scribe> scribenick: oedipus

Meeting Planning/Agenda Review

MS: media issues part of cooper's list from a few weeks ago are high priority so want to talk about them on the call today
... quick couple of minutes for task force sub-group reports

Task Force Sub-Group Updates

MS: anyone with update on media?

<paulc> Can the person typing (scribe) go on mute?

EC: philip from opera and sylvia and i have been discusssing exposing track level attributes media elemeents so possible for scripts to query media files, discover if has CC or descriptive audio, [breaking up]
... wiki page with summary of thoughts to this point
... welcome feedback from anyone about discussion or contents of wiki page
... should have more of a report next week

MS: substantial progress, good
... Canvas Sub-Group?

JRG: monday, Canvas sub-group went through examples of use of shadow DOM - Frank Oliver of MS had a checkbox example, i had an accessible version of a chart

<eric_carlson> Media TextAssociations wiki page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations

JRG: FO's checkbox example works functionally with safari and FF; have to be code changes so shadow DOM code needs to be inside CANVAS element - doesn't work at this point; good proof of concept

MS: next steps

JRG: writing specification related to work, suggested code changes to get to work

MS: ownership for spec text?

JRG: don't recall

GJR: i believe RichS was going to write up spec text

minutes from CANVAS call: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/01-html-a11y-minutes.html

Outstanding Action Item Review

MC: Actions that are due or overdue - all
... Action 2 on Cyns

CS: haven't gotten to it; due date?

MS: originally 24 december 2009, then 28 january 2010

<MikeSmithX> action-2?

<trackbot> ACTION-2 -- Cynthia Shelly to deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 -- due 2010-01-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/2

CS: haven't been able to sync up with steve
... can i have 2 more weeks?

MC: relates to meta-grouping of projects will discuss later in call

<MichaelC> action-2 due 18 Feb

<trackbot> ACTION-2 Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 due date now 18 Feb

CS: big project

MS: reset to 18 February 2010

MC: action 6 on Rich - CANVAS related issue
... skip canvas ones - will be reviewed in canvas call

GJR: yes

MC: action 8 on Cyns - follow up with IE team about parent/child relationships

CS: need an additional week

<MichaelC> action-8 due 11 Feb

<trackbot> ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in mappings logic due date now 11 Feb

MC: action 11 on Wendy - timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate

WC: joshue and gregory and i met and discussed a lot of topics; deatils element over @summary - good reasons for that usage; cell API investigated that Cyns proposed; good to have them - at minimum need collections for colum and row groupings; have some text we 3 agree with -- will send to list today; questions originally going to answer was "what is derivable from table markup" what isn't what needs to be; scaled back to what we expect to get from DOM an

MC: think action closeable; falls under "summary" category

WC: 2 main keywords were Cell API and summary

CS: moving away from derivable from structure towards details, what is thinking - different dirction than from HTML WG

WC: 1 statement that GJR made was that CAPTION is to @alt as @summary is to LONGDESC; info that can be derived from tables with cell api - wahat is derivable needs to be in DOM so all apps can interact with it
... if have rowspan and colspan info easily derivable, would help create query consistency -- middle road between 2 opinions; want to keep ascpet of authors to provide explanaion or details - deatils will be rich so can handle multi-lingual; not just for blind or screen reader users; may help those with cognative disabilities and non-native speakers to get better idea

CS: my reading of details is has visible button or link that opens details; suggested using summary when deatails button not acceptable

WC: propose that @summary be mapped to DETAILS for backwards compatibility; details would replace @summary

CS: how handle situation where not having anything available ok

GJR: would be availalbe via the DOM

MS: discuss on mailing list after WC posts; know this is something JS has a lot of interest in -- might be best to wait for her in discussion

CS: please put on agenda for next week

<MichaelC> close action-11

<trackbot> ACTION-11 - report on timeline for summary verbiage about what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF closed

MC: remaining actions are CANVAS sub-groupo

status on face-to-face meeting plan

MS: face2face times and place -- seems consensus leaning towards europe in april 2010

MC: question is hosting - 1 specific host candidate have specific dates, but can also solicit other hosts
... in england could do 6-7 april or 26-29

CS: latter dates confict with WWWConf

MC: london or birmingham

CS: MS has facility in reading

MS: finalize date first then work with hosts?
... april window of opportunity; anyone with strong opinions on early or late april speak up

CS: what about doing WWW - in Raleigh, North Carolina in april

MS: wonder if Janina can make it

CS: w4a (web4all) going to convene then in Raleigh

MS: strongest possiblity having in europe, most likely england, at beginning or end of month - if conflicts start of month might be best

MC: earlier is better to sync with HTML WG timeline; bang out issues at f2f would make HTML WG chairs very happy

MS: good reason to pin to early April 2010
... get offer for hosting at beginning of april in U.K. - already have one for 6-7 april via RNIB

MC: need to call for objections to date and location

MS: do on list - no objections voiced during call
... need to give those on list opportunity to provide feedback

RESOLUTION: HTML A11y Task Force will meet in Europe at beginning of April

MS: can talk with sally about hosting at end of call

Media Issues

<MikeSmithX> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=media

MS: half-hour left
... previous URI has media and a11y keywords
... neeed to determine which ones are highest priority; ones that are higher are 5758

<MikeSmithX> 5758 insufficient accessibility fallback for <audio> or <video>

<MikeSmithX> 8187 Section 4.8.7 on video makes no reference to audio description

MS: second with high priority 8187
... discuss those 2 today
... some feedback on list about this

<MikeSmithX> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0035.html

MS: sylvia can't be on call due to time differences, but sent very good response
... sylvia said that 5758 is an open issue for discussion in media sub-group
... sylvia had comments on 5758 -- 1 comment that applies to all we do is getting someone to take ownership of writing a concrete proposal
... sylvia also mentioned implementations
... as far as 8187, sylvia said that she considers this unresolved -- MCooper do you concur?

<eric_carlson> +1 from me as well

MC: don't feel qualified to concur or not concur, but willing to take as reservation; some bugs resolved as "fixed" if sylvia concurs, that is a plus 1 that i will accept

MS: comments on other issues; under control and don't require attention of entire TF because no one objected to proposed resolution

MC: sylvia seemed to bump 5758 up in priority; accept her ok for others

MS: will tag these as a11y

MC: remove others from a11y tf mailing list

MS: getting baack to 5758 - seems to be highest priority
... comments on how to move forward on this expeditiously


MS: want to get something concrete out of this
... eric, can you give some insight about progress on issue -- seems to be linked to what discussed earlier

EC: which issue?

MS: 5758 - fallback for video and audio

EC: specifically the issue we've discussed; to address, first need to find further API on audio and video element so script has access to info about what kind of media is in media file, so can decide what to enable and what to disable for users' need; concentrating on this first because fundamental to solution

MS: anything blocking progress other than limit of amount of time

EC: time; sylvia mentioned we need to set up media telecons, we've been doing it all via email so far; at point where talking would move forward

MS: anything anyone in TF or media group can do to expedite?

EC: not yet

MS: please follow up on list with this -- if can find time to talk by phone let chairs know

SH: question: direction EC outlining is about working with content - means not a fallback in sense if i don't understand this content what do i do?
... a11y info NOT a fallback, but part of the media; it is not fallback, am i missing something?

EC: may be incorrectly titled issue; 1 of the issues is that media file can have alternate representations of its content - audio, audio and video, audio video sub-titles, alternate version s of audio file or video file; how to expose info in a media file so that scropt can configure file to display info according to user's needs

SH: no objection to that, just pointing out that that is NOT a fallback

EC: more work needs to be done, no doubt, but that is starting point we chose
... either bug incorrectly titled, or need a new bug describing problem working on now

SH: 2 bugs - what to do for fallback and what do about exposing various components

MS: worth adding comment to bug issue or Sean can raise additional bug just to make clear
... title is imprecise -- seems clear that scope of bug is part of, but not complete, solution; short term priority is work on that part of solution because momentum built
... would be good for whole TF to meet in alternate time to accomodate those who can't attend current time

MC: should investigate options, but may want to have media sub-group have own calls like CANVAS sub-group

MS: greater wider task force needs to be filled in on what media issues are, what is being persued, what needs to be persued; talking with sylvia in real-time would be invaluable
... never going to find time that works for everybody, but need to make effort to enable those working on media to talk

MC: will follow up with MS and JS

MS: week after next would like a detailed media update

MK: question regarding audio/video - alternative not fallback content -- implementing API for content, isn't it feasible as long as devs and implementors haven't agreed on video or subtitle format

EC: video and audio independent of work we are doing; whether vendor supports 1 format or another, media files still have logical concept of track - streams of diff formats of media in a file (audio, video, captions, etc.) API would be higher level abstract way for media element to allow script to configure media contained in file
... since captions data needs to be exposed via script, need to come up with recommendation on how that might work - we are addressing that directly

MS: questions, comments?

<MikeSmithX> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0035.html

MS: end of discussion of media for today -- any other media folks have comments, please post them to the list and reply to above post from sylvia

<MikeSmithX> 8659 Media events to indicate captions and audio descriptions

MS: only other 1 being worked on actively is 8659 about events
... not sure if anything to discuss; discussion on mailing list about timing model which is what this relates to

EC: does it make sense to expose events floated on list, but don't recall a reply

MS: 1 thing from Dave Singer is comment on bug - is this really right way to solve problem was question he raised
... weren't any responses
... will poke dave to have him re-ask question to solicit responses
... nothing else in discussion; no direct reply to DSinger's message, rest of discussion didn't touch on DS' question so is still open
... can ask DSinger to update us on it
... resolve for today about set of issues: 2 we need to keep open as issues for a11y TF are 8659 and 5758
... rest of issues, remain open in bugzilla -- anyone welcome to discuss or follow up on them;
... next week, @summary discussion and review set of issues associated with @summary to find out which need to add to high priority list
... Janina will be chairing next week - focus: forward progress on summary

<MichaelC> Media related bugs taken up by the TF: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?keywords_type=allwords&keywords=a11ytf+media

MS: call next week at same time


New Issues & Announcements

RS: when is HTML A11y TF meeting for f2f

MS: talking about april 6/7 2010 in england; or another time close to beginning of apirl in U.K. probably london

SC: at moment have space in conference facility in birmingham office -- london booked; 6/7 april are free; also opening week of 26th april

MS: leaning towards beginning of month--aim for 6/7 april 2010

MC: do we want to settle on that or investigate other hosting options around that date?

MS: cyns checking on MS hosting in reading, but would gladly ceede to RNIB
... propose to TF april 6/7 in birmingham, u.k. hosted by RNIB

RS: trying to schedule another trip around that time, so need to find out soon

MC: can send call for objections email with plan

MS: yes, please do -- earliest decision the best

2 minute warning

RS: heads up: looking at attributes for HTML that can be triggered via CSS Media Queries -- what is best way to do that?

MS: go directly to CSS WG mailing list (www-style) to give them heads up and request discussion
... inform CSS WG on their mailing list

RS: CANVAS sub-group agreed to create accessibleDOM binding for CANVAS; MS, Paciello Group, Mozilla, Apple working on it; Hixie says "fallback content sufficient" doesn't understand problem; how do we make progress -- doing implementations

MS: way to address getting wording into spec is write change proposal & bring to attention of chairs and WG -- first step; if hixie as editor is resolved not to make requested change to spec, then is up to chairs to put forward a survey or some other method of inquiry
... first thing - concrete change proposal that addresses concern

RS: i'm doing that, but i can't camp out on public-html and get carpet-bombed over tangental and philosophical issues; if put out for survey, going to have people voting out of ignorance

MS: not voting per se; microdata split came down to chairs loooking at arguments and objectyions put forward and then making informed educated decision about strongest arguments and weakest objections; if comes down to standoff on this, chairs will review available info and make decision

RS: will give CSS WG a heads up

MS: HTML WG call starting now - ADJOURN

my "pleasure"

<dboudreau> cya guys

previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-html-a11y-minutes.html

Summary of Action Items

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Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Rich, kliehm, +1.408.307.aaaa, +0154558aabb, Kelly_Ford, Bruce_Lawson, +1.514.312.aacc, Steve_Faulkner, Ben_Caldwell, Eric_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Sean_Hayes, [Microsoft], Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton, Wendy_Chisholm, Mike, Jon_Gunderson, +1.609.482.aadd, Markku_Hakkinen, +0190561aaee, SCain
Present: Gregory_Rosmaita Cooper Rich kliehm +1.408.307.aaaa +0154558aabb Kelly_Ford Bruce_Lawson +1.514.312.aacc Steve_Faulkner Ben_Caldwell Eric_Carlson Denis_Boudreau Sean_Hayes [Microsoft] Cynthia_Shelly Paul_Cotton Wendy_Chisholm Mike Jon_Gunderson +1.609.482.aadd Markku_Hakkinen +0190561aaee SCain
Regrets: Janina_Sajka Aurélien Levy Joshue_O'Connor Laura_Carlson Silvia_Pfeiffer
Found Date: 04 Feb 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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