See also: IRC log
I think there is a class of tasks that need metadata to operate properly
<dbooth> jar, perhaps the killer app for metadata is content-type.
from discovery to trust
not sure if I understand dbooth - example?
or do you mean the HTTP header?
<dbooth> yes, exactly
sorry, you don't know the context
I criticised it recently via Twitter
RSS vs RDF etc.
<jar> ok, so metadata in regard to "core web functions" is an angle i hadn't thought about
<jar> i was thinking more along the lines of itunes
and Geoffrey was so nice explaining it http://twitter.com/gsnedders ;)
jar, please define core Web functions :)
<jar> but data re "core web functions" is not the same as metadata.
<jar> not is data generally (e.g. linked data)
<jar> my term for what you were saying... let me find it
hm, this sounds like an artificial distinction to me "but data re "core web functions" is not the same as metadata."
<jar> metadata is very clearly data about data. canonical example is DC
<jar> metadata is a subset of all data
<jar> molecular weight is not metadata, nor is a user's public key
but there is also data about other things such as services
what is a WSDL file?
<jar> i don't consider that metadata.
<dbooth> wsdl is not metadata. it's data about a service
<jar> that's why i suggested "data related to core web functions"
<jar> some of which is metadata, some of which isn't
wow, then you have a very very very focused definition of metadata. Mine is broader ;)
<jar> google define:metadata
<jar> mine is the majority view
ok, jar, I believe you ;)
<dbooth> but content type seems to me to be exactly metadata: it allows a string of bytes to be re-interpreted for a particular use.
still, what are the core Web functions?
may I ask what a DOAP description then is?
(that is http://trac.usefulinc.com/doap)
it's data about a project
or am I totally wrong?
<jar> i'm fudging in order to characterize what i perceived was your interest. core web functions would include HTTP, authentication, web services, content-type, site-meta, link:, POWDER
<jar> there's tons of metadata; data about a project qualifies, i think, although there is a slippery slope from the data to the social process that created / will create it
<jar> i.e. a journal is a data source (social institution), but it corpus to date is data
ok, thanks for the clarification
<jar> in a proper ontological treatment the two would be distinct entities... but no need to get into that, we could take data sources to be honorary data, if pressed
so, back to your draft 282
how about to start with this sort of definition for metadata
and then discuss the core Web functions
and then list examples for each of these domains?
<jar> i think we need to start with a menu of potential efforts, listing 3-4 of them, and then pick one effort, and dive in
(if I agree or not re your definition doesn't matter for now )
but why only dive into one?
<jar> (1) semweb, (2) data re core web functions, (3) classic metadata a la XMP / DC, (4) ...
<jar> because the topic is too big. ocean-boiling.
still, drop 1 ;)
sorry to say this, but this is something 89% of the audience is not interested in
<jar> fine, but many people will drag it back in that direction (molecular weight), so it needs to be *explicitly* listed and then dropped
hehe, I see your point
this = Semantic Web at large
when we talk about concrete technologies, say RDFa or URIs, fine
<jar> oh. right. i think we agree.
within certain use cases such as GoodRelations in RDFa yielding a new sort of SEO then people are interested
<jar> SEO = ?
Search Engine Optimisation
<jar> don't know GoodRelations
wanna show up in Google on first place? use GR and RDFa ;)
<jar> ok. so this is why i want it to be content-oriented and application-oriented, not technology-oriented
<jar> so rdf and rdfa are just generic subroutines you invoke when needed.
<jar> as is XMP
yeah, sort of - for certain tasks usable but not always and everywhere
or if you contrast Atom with RDF, etc,
ok, so we agree to have it content/app oriented
what is the list of the efforts, now?
1. data re core web functions such as HTTP, auth, trust, etc.
<DanC> I have very little interest in the "what is metadata?" question. I'm more interested in models of HTTP that help with anarchic scalability; i.e. models that help independently-developed apps work together.
sorry, DanC, this is a bit confusing. I was sort of hijacking this telco into 282 action of jar
<jar> i'm thinking about what you (mh) said, covering the union of "core web data" (the web as application?) and metadata sensu stricto (itunes exemplar)... i dislike documents that don't have unique focus... but maybe could live with one that is admittedly bifocal; or with two; or with finding some common thread
aha, yes, I see
<jar> the question is not "what is metadata", it's "what problem do we want to work on"
<jar> the latter masquerades as the former
and +1 to DanC's distributed app on Web-scale approach
jar was sort of briefing me re metadata, so forget about the question what is metadata, please :)
<jar> of course. but no open metadata apps are emerging that i can see. so why bother.
hm. wouldn't OpenCalais Freebase and the like fall into this category?
is 1. ok with you jar?
<jar> freebase open & anarchic??
open sort of
<DanC> no one project is anarchic; it's the whole that's anarchic
anarchic (maybe internally ;)
yup, agree, DanC
<DanC> as to why bother: some proposals get the "aboutness" bit wrong. that means a web site owner can't use that technology along with others.
no single entity can be but the collective operations. but one can create rules that allow or disallow certain behaviour
<jar> well, mosaic both exploited and encouraged anarchy, that's what i meant. you don't need an architecture if there are no integration points
DanC, not sure what you're talking about. Concrete example, please?
<DanC> integration points for freebase are clients that use it.
<DanC> i.e. clientXYZ wants to use freebase _and_ OpenCalais
<DanC> so if freebase and OpenCalais have conflicting models, clientXYZ has a hard life.
<jar> you think there is or soon will be demand? or that the TAG can be effective at promoting things like this somehow?
both have a linked data interface
or what model are you talking about? the schema? sorry, /me a bit dense as it seems
<DanC> right... but if one uses http://www.w3.org/ to refer to "the web consortium" and the other uses it to refer to "the home page of the web consortium", then life is hard for clientXYZ
anyway, shall we come back to the 4 domains for the 282, jar?
<jar> this is just RDF semantics. does it need a champion? (not a rhetorical question)
my guess would be: no. the community will sort it out
<DanC> perhaps that was a bad example... but I think the aboutness stuff is a good example. Maybe not life-changing, but useful in that it keeps coming up on www-tag
I *love* aboutness
<jar> 4 domains. i guess the sensible thing is to keep the 2 we've talked about, what i call "core web" and "metadata sensu stricto", but proceed in parallel with them. maybe split to 2 docs later
my approach is simple: you'll always need a human in the loop (see http://sig.ma) to disambiguate
<jar> yes, aboutness is very important, it's the same problem as using URIs to refer, and is addressed by RDF model theory
the question is: which ocean? :D
<jar> yes, i'm trying not to boil the ocean. am desperate to gain focus
<jar> larry masinter favors the "metadata sensu stricto" ocean
ok, to a better term for "metadata sensu stricto"
<jar> the TAG's usual audience would probably be more interested in "core web data"
<jar> they are just different i think, but with common subroutines
but "metadata sensu stricto" might be a bit over the top, can I have a more casual title for it, plz
<jar> i would just call it "metadata" except that this confuses everyone outside the library community
<DanC> umm... "metadata per se"? or "data about digital artifacts"?
<jar> how about "data about data"
how about bibilographic metadata
hm, to narrow maybe
<jar> itunes and flickr are bibliographic?
on the other hand digital artifacts reminds me on MPEG21
<jar> data about documents (where 'document' is term of art including images, audio, video) ?
ok, I guess I can live with that
lemme quickly get the brainstorm generator hat ... what else ... digital media item, digital artefact, digital asset
blech. let's stick with 'document' ;)
<jar> well we can figure this out later. that will do for now. so michael, i think we have a way forward, yes? how about this: 1 document with 3 parts (1) content and applications around data about documents-broadly-construed; (2) content and applications around data about "core web functions" (see above); (3) subroutines common to both
sounds like a plan!
<jar> with the focus on content and applications, e.g. Dan's example above
will you draft that in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/12/metameta.html and then I start to fill in, or ...?
<DanC> hmm... all 3? I thought you were trying to focus, jar.
<jar> hmm. i think i can do this in a day or two
<DanC> oh... it's mostly 2 areas.
<jar> i want to focus but am indecisive and i believe i'm being asked to do both... also mh is volunteering :)
<jar> any, 3 is common, so is properly part of 1 and 2, so really there are only 2 oceans
ok, I think I'm gonna call it a day (re IRC) and head out to my next meeting
<jar> ok me too.
thanks for the enlightening discussion and lemme know when I can start to input, jar, please
<jar> ok will do
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