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Chatlog 2009-11-24
From SPARQL Working Group
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14:46:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql 14:46:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/24-sparql-irc 14:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:46:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql 14:46:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277 14:46:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 14:46:20 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL 14:46:21 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 14:46:21 <trackbot> Date: 24 November 2009 14:46:22 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 14:46:24 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF 14:46:27 <LeeF> Scribe: Chimezie 14:46:36 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-11-24 14:46:42 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql 14:53:51 <AlexPassant> AlexPassant has joined #sparql 14:56:24 <kasei> kasei has joined #sparql 14:57:44 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 14:57:51 <Zakim> + +1.310.453.aaaa 14:58:06 <kasei> Zakim, aaaa is me 14:58:06 <Zakim> +kasei; got it 14:58:07 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum 14:58:08 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #sparql 14:58:19 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me 14:58:19 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it 14:58:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:59:04 <kasei> hmm... ok. 14:59:22 <Zakim> + +49.238.aabb 14:59:24 <kasei> was appologizing ahead of time -- was travelling all day yesterday and haven't yet caught up on SD emails. 14:59:35 <sandro> sandro has joined #sparql 14:59:40 <Zakim> +??P13 14:59:43 <kasei> (and will pick up phone when I need to speak next :) 14:59:57 <LukeWM> Zakim, ??P13 is me 14:59:57 <Zakim> +LukeWM; got it 15:00:03 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me 15:00:03 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 15:00:09 <Zakim> +??P14 15:00:13 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aacc 15:00:14 <AlexPassant> Zakim: ??P14 is me 15:00:17 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql 15:00:21 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql 15:00:30 <dcharbon2> dcharbon2 has joined #sparql 15:00:42 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 15:00:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, ??P14, +1.312.863.aacc 15:00:43 <pgearon> Zakim: aacc is me 15:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see dcharbon2, bglimm, SteveH, sandro, OlivierCorby, kasei, AlexPassant, AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, LukeWM, AndyS, ivanh, karl, trackbot, iv_an_ru, pgearon, 15:00:46 <Zakim> ... KjetilK 15:00:59 <Zakim> + +8686528aadd 15:01:15 <bglimm> Zakim, + 8686528aadd is me 15:01:15 <Zakim> I don't understand '+ 8686528aadd is me', bglimm 15:01:26 <pgearon> Zakim, +1.312.863.aacc is me 15:01:27 <bglimm> Zakim, 8686528aadd is me 15:01:27 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it 15:01:31 <Zakim> sorry, bglimm, I do not recognize a party named '8686528aadd' 15:01:35 <Zakim> + +1.919.543.aaee 15:02:22 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, ??P14, pgearon, +8686528aadd, +1.919.543.aaee 15:02:36 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P14 is me 15:02:36 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it 15:02:42 <LeeF> zakim, aadd is bglimm 15:02:43 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it 15:02:57 <dcharbon2> Zakim, +1.919.543.aaee is me 15:02:57 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it 15:03:15 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 15:03:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2 15:03:19 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivanh-voip 15:03:19 <Zakim> ok, ivanh; the call is being made 15:03:21 <Zakim> +IvanH 15:03:31 <Zakim> + +0207735aaff 15:03:43 <SteveH> Zakim, aaff is SteveH 15:03:43 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it 15:03:52 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:04:07 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2, Ivanh, SteveH, Sandro 15:04:22 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql 15:04:29 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql 15:04:40 <chimezie> Zakim, passcode? 15:04:40 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie 15:04:48 <LeeF> zakim, drop aabb 15:04:48 <Zakim> +49.238.aabb is being disconnected 15:04:49 <Zakim> - +49.238.aabb 15:05:13 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:05:28 <LeeF> Scribenick: chimezie 15:05:31 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:05:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, AndyS, LukeWM, AlexPassant, pgearon, bglimm, dcharbon2, IvanH, SteveH, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:05:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:05:57 <Zakim> + +49.238.aagg 15:05:59 <chimezie> LeeF:Might be a short agenda 15:06:10 <LeeF> zakim, IPCaller is Orri 15:06:10 <Zakim> +Orri; got it 15:06:42 <LeeF> zakim, who's speaking? 15:06:54 <Zakim> LeeF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (34%), bglimm (5%), +49.238.aagg (3%) 15:07:00 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 15:07:00 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 15:07:17 <LeeF> zakim, aagg is OlivierCorby 15:07:17 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it 15:07:27 <LeeF> topic: Admin 15:07:37 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-11-17 15:07:42 <bglimm> Do we have Orri now? Because Orri was initially the IP caller 15:08:11 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-11-17 15:08:23 <LeeF> Next meeting: 2009-12-01 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST 15:08:30 <LeeF> Regrets: AxelPolleres 15:08:45 <sandro> I think I'm out next week 15:08:47 <SteveH> can only do one hour 15:08:54 <LeeF> Regrets next week: Sandro 15:09:21 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:09:35 <chimezie> RDB2RDF asked us about data definitions, etc. 15:09:40 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:09:50 <chimezie> LeeF:RDB2RDF grouped asked a few questions Axel answered 15:10:02 <chimezie> ... conversations regarding co-location of F2F. I'm skeptical 15:10:17 <chimezie> ... go ahead with planning ours and considering opportunity if arises 15:10:27 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F3 15:10:58 <chimezie> LeeF: please indicate status ASAP 15:11:04 <chimezie> Orri: location? 15:11:23 <bglimm> Ireland 15:11:28 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:11:31 <SteveH> europe 15:11:35 <chimezie> LeeF: Dual location Cambridge/MA or Galway/Oxford 15:11:50 <LukeWM> British Isles 15:11:53 <SteveH> british isles? 15:11:56 <bglimm> There is, either Great Britain or United Kingdom, but I can't remember which one is what 15:12:11 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:12:25 <pgearon> Both Great Britain and United Kingdom exclude Ireland 15:12:26 <AndyS> Not GB (Eng_Soct+Wales) - "citizen of UK and GB and NI" 15:12:37 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments 15:12:41 <chimezie> LeeF: IvanH added wiki page for tracking comments 15:12:58 <AndyS> Classic wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles 15:13:17 <chimezie> ... hopefully as comments get in, they get added here and potenential response is setup, edited, and sent to commenter 15:13:30 <chimezie> ... tracks the thread. Please try to use it, chairs will put comments there but anyone can use 15:14:03 <kasei> i've been meaning to write a response to Leigh's serv. desc. email. Will try to do that this week. 15:14:04 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me 15:14:04 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted 15:14:25 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 15:14:25 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 15:14:26 <kasei> the linked wikipedia page has a good venn diagram :) 15:14:27 <LeeF> topic: service description 15:14:39 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0483.html 15:16:23 <chimezie> Greg: Changes were WRT rough agreement from F2F conversation. Had a dataset description property that has been replaced with a default dataset and avaialble dataset properties 15:16:28 <chimezie> ... some conversation about naming 15:16:54 <chimezie> ... a default dataset and the available universe of graphs that can be used on FROM/FROM NAMED clauses 15:17:09 <chimezie> Greg: one thing in update is URL variance of those terms 15:17:22 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml 15:17:22 <Prateek> Prateek has joined #sparql 15:17:44 <chimezie> ... haven't committed to CVS, wanted to discuss 15:17:47 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aahh 15:17:51 <chimezie> LeeF: Easier if editors commit changes 15:17:58 <chimezie> .. even if under discussion 15:18:03 <Prateek> Zakim, +1.937.775.aahh is Prateek 15:18:03 <Zakim> +Prateek; got it 15:18:42 <chimezie> Greg: hoping ppl who needed this would chime in and drive discussion 15:19:04 <LeeF> commit early, commit often :) 15:19:12 <chimezie> ... this suggestion was for ppl that didn't want to list the entire dataset description. 15:19:49 <chimezie> ... we can assume the URI for a dataset description is dereferencable 15:20:16 <AndyS> Style Q: Does the linked to document notionally replace the original? (should it contain the orginal as well?) 15:20:19 <chimezie> LeeF:who had those usecases? 15:20:50 <chimezie> SteveH: we do have some usecases.. 10 millions of graphs 15:21:03 <chimezie> ... would like to be able to describe them. 15:21:15 <chimezie> ... not at the graph level, but want a description of the whole dataset 15:21:57 <chimezie> Greg: default graph gives you access to all the graphs in your deployment? 15:22:00 <chimezie> SteveH: yes 15:22:11 <AndyS> Will the description be large? At a SPARQL endpoint? 15:22:15 <chimezie> Greg:service desc. points to default graph - no need to describe individual graphs 15:22:52 <AndyS> q+ to mention a large description use case 15:23:13 <chimezie> SteveH: if it is explicitely open world, that is fine 15:23:13 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:23:13 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to mention a large description use case 15:23:33 <chimezie> AndyS: one case is where you have alot of statistics that goes with description to guide federated querying 15:24:33 <AndyS> Multiple datasets is a separate issue to me 15:24:43 <chimezie> LeeF: comfortable having single property for these kinds of datasets desc. let them be open world - and if you don't want to include the triples in serv desc, then separate via linked data approach 15:26:05 <kasei> (bad line here -- having a bit of trouble hearing everything that's being said) 15:26:17 <chimezie> LeeF: at F2F what was said was: if we go to a SPARQL service, there are 2 things i want 15:26:35 <chimezie> ... what is the RDF dataset the query hits if the dataset isn't specified in request? 15:26:49 <chimezie> ... specification says: up to implementation so we might want that in serv. desc. 15:27:04 <chimezie> ... other question: what are the universe of graphs names I can use in dataset description to do useful things? 15:28:10 <chimezie> Seems very useful to me 15:29:04 <chimezie> for service discovery, incremental querying, etc. 15:29:36 <ivanh> q+ 15:29:40 <chimezie> AndyS: I'm concerned with framing. I would like to see an implementation that uses REGEX expressions (POWDER?) 15:29:49 <AndyS> c.f voiD 15:30:11 <chimezie> LeeF: we are being agnostic about things like that 15:30:28 <chimezie> Orri: problem is that we have sites with millions of distinct graphs 15:30:31 <LeeF> ack ivanh 15:30:36 <ivanh> http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-primer/ 15:30:41 <AndyS> Framing I'm concerned with is "multiple datasets" rather than limiting FROM/FROM NAMED. 15:30:44 <chimezie> IvanH: don't we have a usecase (POWDER)? 15:31:13 <chimezie> IvanH: we can define families of resources and RDF statements valid for them, seems relevant to this conversation - POWDER handles REGEX matching of groups of URIs, for instance 15:31:52 <LeeF> AndyS, would you be happy with renaming availableDataset as something else? availableGraphs or something like that? 15:32:05 <chimezie> ... for example we have SW logos/buttons, etc. I can describe them and prescribe a license to them in one go 15:32:07 <kasei> ivanh: is this something you think we should use directly, or continue to be agnostic about it so that someone could use powder or voiD or somethign else entirely? 15:32:11 <kasei> s/:/,/ 15:32:14 <chimezie> .. this is the direction we are going (in some cases) 15:33:00 <AndyS> LeeF, yes (on the spot answer) The F2F descussion lead me down the wrong path and the email trail didn't contradict that interpretation. 15:33:11 <LeeF> AndyS, ok, thanks 15:33:21 <LeeF> (i didn't understand your concern until now) 15:33:31 <kasei> i'll try to take a look at the primer. 15:33:39 <chimezie> IvanH: uses XML format 15:34:46 <LeeF> q? 15:35:00 <chimezie> Greg: this should not be contentious 15:35:42 <chimezie> ... also, is the use of available datasets should imply those are the only URIs usable in a dataset clause or is it just a mechanism to say you have descriptions from a subset 15:35:51 <chimezie> LeeF: I don't think we can mandate one way or another 15:36:42 <chimezie> ... I think we should take an open world approach 15:36:52 <chimezie> Greg: aren't there implementations that make CWA assumptions? 15:37:35 <chimezie> LeeF: seems useful in general (RDF) to say a set of triples follow a CWA 15:38:40 <chimezie> Sandro: I don't understand the semantics. there are graphs from a local cluster and names from other places 15:38:47 <chimezie> ... we can have a regex in either case 15:38:59 <chimezie> ... allowed graphs / cached graphs 15:39:22 <chimezie> ... Quad store that fetches anything in an intranet to cache 15:40:37 <chimezie> Greg: allowed graphs is better than allowed datasets, what we are taking about are available graph descriptions 15:41:01 <chimezie> Orri: can we say a quad store will fetch a resource if it doesn't cache it? 15:41:20 <chimezie> Greg: discussed IRI for indicating service will dereference URLs it hasn't loaded 15:41:30 <chimezie> Sandro: use allowed graphs for this 15:41:57 <AndyS> q+ to ask about status of describing the dataset structure. 15:42:10 <LeeF> ack AndyS 15:42:10 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about status of describing the dataset structure. 15:42:24 <AndyS> cf. VoiD-Issue-43: http://code.google.com/p/void-impl/issues/detail?id=43 15:42:33 <chimezie> Andy: describing the datasets themselves... 15:42:57 <chimezie> ... there is a hope to transfer what the SPARQL WG is doing into their spec, and vice versa 15:44:14 <chimezie> AndyS: take to email 15:45:03 <chimezie> LeeF: time to reach agreement 15:45:21 <LeeF> topic: abbreviated delete 15:46:35 <kjetil> kjetil has joined #sparql 15:46:44 <chimezie> LeeF: let us wait until next week to discuss graphs datastores, etc. 15:47:03 <chimezie> ... including conversation about USE / INCLUDING, etc.. (multiple update statements) 15:47:22 <Zakim> +??P1 15:47:29 <KjetilK> Zakim, ??P1 is me 15:47:29 <Zakim> +KjetilK; got it 15:47:54 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me 15:47:54 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted 15:47:58 <chimezie> pgearon: Where do we put the graph we are removing (inside the template or in the DELETE)? 15:48:06 <SteveH> I'm only in favour of this abbreviate with GRAPH in templates, otherwise it's very confusing 15:48:25 <SteveH> s/abbreviate/abbreviation/ 15:48:42 <LeeF> why not DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } ? 15:49:14 <SteveH> hos is it not confusing? what does it mean? 15:49:23 <LeeF> DELETE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } 15:49:27 <LeeF> DELETE WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } 15:49:31 <SteveH> ^ yup 15:49:42 <chimezie> remove the matched triples from the graph identified with <g> 15:49:55 <LeeF> DELETE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } 15:50:08 <AndyS> DELETE FROM ?g WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } ? (var for FROM) 15:50:14 <chimezie> inclear the graph 15:50:20 <chimezie> s/inclear/clear 15:51:03 <SteveH> +1 to abbr 15:51:04 <chimezie> LeeF: do we want an abbreviation 15:51:06 <AndyS> +1 to abbrev mechanism 15:51:07 <KjetilK> +1 for abbreviation mechanism 15:51:07 <pgearon> yes 15:51:09 <pgearon> +! 15:51:13 <pgearon> +1 15:51:14 <KjetilK> +100, actually :-) 15:51:14 <bglimm> 0 15:51:35 <pgearon> I'd like to see an abbreviation mechanism, but keep it simple 15:51:51 <chimezie> maybe we have that discussion first 15:52:22 <KjetilK> q+ 15:53:08 <chimezie> pgearon: I feel we need to nail down issues first 15:54:08 <LeeF> ack KjetilK 15:54:10 <chimezie> LeeF: maybe we should not do it by commitee, but have editors lead 15:55:00 <chimezie> KjetilK: lead template identical to WHERE pattern - this is basic usecase, make sure we don't duplicate syntax 15:55:22 <pgearon> KjetilK, this basic removal of duplication is what I've put into the document 15:55:45 <SteveH> strawpoll on FROM and GRAPH? 15:55:46 <pgearon> So far I've avoided issues of FILTER, etc, that have been discussed 15:55:55 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:56:20 <AndyS> Maybe having a (more) formal model of update would help. 15:56:39 <pgearon> SteveH, I take it you're saying that you don't want to see: DELETE WHERE { GRAPH <g> { ?s ?p ?o } } 15:56:42 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS 15:56:46 <chimezie> SteveH: hoped it was clear enough for straw pol 15:56:51 <pgearon> oops, I mean, that's what you DO want to see 15:57:01 <SteveH> pgearon, yes, DO want to see that :) 15:57:09 <pgearon> and not DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } 15:57:17 <SteveH> I want to see DELETE $a WHERE $s == DELETE WHERE $a 15:57:28 <SteveH> and I think that's only possible with GRAPH syntax 15:58:02 <KjetilK> Zakim, mute me 15:58:02 <Zakim> KjetilK should now be muted 15:58:04 <SteveH> s/$s/$a 15:58:21 <chimezie> LeeF: David Charboneau will take over for Simon as coeditor on protocol document 15:58:30 <chimezie> DavidC: not setup yet fully 15:59:42 <Zakim> -IvanH 15:59:43 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:59:44 <Zakim> -SteveH 15:59:44 <Zakim> -Prateek 15:59:46 <Zakim> -kasei 15:59:47 <Zakim> -bglimm 15:59:48 <Zakim> -pgearon 15:59:49 <Zakim> -LeeF 15:59:52 <Zakim> -KjetilK 15:59:52 <Zakim> -AlexPassant 15:59:56 <Zakim> -dcharbon2 15:59:59 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby 16:00:05 <Zakim> -AndyS 16:06:26 <ivanH> ivanh has joined #sparql 16:06:37 <ivanH> ivanh has left #sparql 16:06:59 <Zakim> -Orri 16:22:09 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has left #sparql 16:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, LukeWM, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM 16:35:04 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 16:35:05 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.310.453.aaaa, kasei, LeeF, +49.238.aabb, LukeWM, AndyS, +8686528aadd, pgearon, AlexPassant, bglimm, dcharbon2, IvanH, +0207735aaff, SteveH, Sandro, 16:35:07 <Zakim> ... Chimezie_Ogbuji, +49.238.aagg, Orri, OlivierCorby, Prateek, KjetilK 18:04:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #sparql 18:14:55 <LukeWM> LukeWM has joined #sparql 20:12:15 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql 21:32:54 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql 22:07:28 <LukeWM> LukeWM has joined #sparql 22:08:06 <LukeWM> LukeWM has joined #sparql 22:36:31 <Tread> Tread has joined #sparql 22:40:03 <enirctst> enirctst has joined #sparql 22:50:06 <enirctst> enirctst has joined #sparql # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000305