None.
<LeeF> Present: LeeF, ericP, ivanh, chimezie, pgearon, kasei, ywang4, axel, alex, LukeWM, steveh, andys, birte, bijan, SimonS, kendall, iv_an_ru, KjetilK, john-l, Jannes
10:56:54 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F1_Agenda#Day_2
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F1_Agenda#Day_2 ←
11:02:07 <iv_an_ru> Shouldn't we add some way of returning quads, not triples, say, in TriG ?
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Ivan Mikhailov: Shouldn't we add some way of returning quads, not triples, say, in TriG ? ←
11:03:00 <iv_an_ru> ( I know that's not in the agenda so I'm asking before we've started ;)
Ivan Mikhailov: ( I know that's not in the agenda so I'm asking before we've started ;) ←
11:09:36 <LeeF> ScribeNick: pgearon
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(Scribe set to Paul Gearon)
11:09:48 <AndyS> Could use a result set of GSPO.
Andy Seaborne: Could use a result set of GSPO. ←
11:10:27 <iv_an_ru> yes, we could, but there's no standard loader for that.
Ivan Mikhailov: yes, we could, but there's no standard loader for that. ←
11:11:31 <pgearon> Axel: move feature specification template to the end of the day. Start with subselects and aggregates today
Axel Polleres: move feature specification template to the end of the day. Start with subselects and aggregates today ←
<LeeF> topic: Subqueries
11:11:54 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SubSelects
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SubSelects ←
11:13:57 <AxelPolleres> http://jena.sourceforge.net/ARQ/sub-select.html
Axel Polleres: http://jena.sourceforge.net/ARQ/sub-select.html ←
11:14:24 <pgearon> AndyS: ARQ subselects work in together with rest of the query
Andy Seaborne: ARQ subselects work in together with rest of the query ←
11:15:00 <pgearon> ... projected variables from a select show up in the global select
... projected variables from a select show up in the global select ←
11:15:07 <AndyS> Slides: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf
Andy Seaborne: Slides: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf ←
11:15:19 <LeeF> q+ to ask if ARQ does ASK (in FILTER) or CONSTRUCT/DESCRIBE (in FROM) subqueries
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask if ARQ does ASK (in FILTER) or CONSTRUCT/DESCRIBE (in FROM) subqueries ←
11:16:21 <iv_an_ru> Virtuoso allows ASK and SELECT in filters, but not CONSTRUCT in FROM (but it will soon).
Ivan Mikhailov: Virtuoso allows ASK and SELECT in filters, but not CONSTRUCT in FROM (but it will soon). ←
11:17:52 <pgearon> AndyS: Jena uses "funny" generated variable names to represent aggregates like count eg. ?.0
Andy Seaborne: Jena uses "funny" generated variable names to represent aggregates like count eg. ?.0 ←
11:17:55 <AxelPolleres> we are at the example on slide 9
Axel Polleres: we are at the example on slide 9 ←
11:17:59 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:19:03 <AxelPolleres> discussion about whether curly brackets needed around subselects.
Axel Polleres: discussion about whether curly brackets needed around subselects. ←
11:20:09 <iv_an_ru> I'd prefer mandatory brackets to keep indentation rules uniform.
Ivan Mikhailov: I'd prefer mandatory brackets to keep indentation rules uniform. ←
11:20:26 <pgearon> Jena doesn't require the curly braces, but people find the brackets aesthetically pleasing
Jena doesn't require the curly braces, but people find the brackets aesthetically pleasing ←
11:21:44 <pgearon> AndyS: to make the grammar work you just have to remove the prohibition against subselects
Andy Seaborne: to make the grammar work you just have to remove the prohibition against subselects ←
11:22:59 <pgearon> Alex: concern about blank nodes?
Alex Passant: concern about blank nodes? ←
11:23:44 <iv_an_ru> bnodes are not a problem because they're "persistent enough" to stay uniform during run of query and all its subselects.
Ivan Mikhailov: bnodes are not a problem because they're "persistent enough" to stay uniform during run of query and all its subselects. ←
11:23:55 <AxelPolleres> Axel: question about variable name scopes in subselcts on variables NOT projected.
Axel Polleres: question about variable name scopes in subselcts on variables NOT projected. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
11:24:13 <AxelPolleres> ... similar to disallow bnodes.
Axel Polleres: ... similar to disallow bnodes. ←
11:24:16 <JanneS> hi there
Janne Saarela: hi there ←
11:24:22 <pgearon> ericP: does project happen early or late in the query
Eric Prud'hommeaux: does project happen early or late in the query ←
11:24:30 <iv_an_ru> In Virtuoso, what's inside a subquery and not returned is local to the subquery.
Ivan Mikhailov: In Virtuoso, what's inside a subquery and not returned is local to the subquery. ←
11:24:36 <pgearon> AndyS: went with the SQL approach
Andy Seaborne: went with the SQL approach ←
11:25:05 <Zakim> +??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←
11:25:25 <JanneS> Zakim, +??P6 is JanneS
Janne Saarela: Zakim, +??P6 is JanneS ←
11:25:25 <Zakim> sorry, JanneS, I do not recognize a party named '+??P6'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, JanneS, I do not recognize a party named '+??P6' ←
11:25:31 <LeeF> zakim, ??P6 is JanneS
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, ??P6 is JanneS ←
11:25:31 <Zakim> +JanneS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +JanneS; got it ←
11:25:32 <iv_an_ru> (it's possible to force an error if a variable name is used in two different subselects but not in "joined" result-sets).
Ivan Mikhailov: (it's possible to force an error if a variable name is used in two different subselects but not in "joined" result-sets). ←
11:26:20 <pgearon> AndyS: no other forms of subqueries yet
Andy Seaborne: no other forms of subqueries yet ←
11:26:38 <pgearon> ... would like ASK, but see no point in CONSTRUCT
... would like ASK, but see no point in CONSTRUCT ←
11:26:41 <LeeF> q-
Lee Feigenbaum: q- ←
11:26:48 <LeeF> q+ to ask about RDF datasets for subqueries
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask about RDF datasets for subqueries ←
11:27:51 <pgearon> Axel: thinks CONSTRUCT makes sense due to creating groups around a blank node
Axel Polleres: thinks CONSTRUCT makes sense due to creating groups around a blank node ←
11:28:18 <iv_an_ru> For debugging, it may be convenient to permit "{ select ... where { ?x ?y ?z } ... } AS <alias> to see ?alias.x, ?alias.y ?alias.z in the debugger, but that is incovenient in other aspects.
Ivan Mikhailov: For debugging, it may be convenient to permit "{ select ... where { ?x ?y ?z } ... } AS <alias> to see ?alias.x, ?alias.y ?alias.z in the debugger, but that is incovenient in other aspects. ←
11:29:06 <AxelPolleres> http://www.polleres.net/publications/poll-etal-2007.pdf page 6, example for COSTRUCT in FROM
Axel Polleres: http://www.polleres.net/publications/poll-etal-2007.pdf page 6, example for COSTRUCT in FROM ←
11:29:35 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
11:29:42 <LeeF> ack me
Lee Feigenbaum: ack me ←
11:29:42 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask about RDF datasets for subqueries
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask about RDF datasets for subqueries ←
11:29:55 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:30:06 <iv_an_ru> we're thinking about FROM ?g { construct { ?s ?p ?o }}...
Ivan Mikhailov: we're thinking about FROM ?g { construct { ?s ?p ?o }}... ←
11:30:23 <pgearon> AndyS: no selects in filters. It's a conservative implementation
Andy Seaborne: no selects in filters. It's a conservative implementation ←
11:30:26 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
11:30:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT262b, iv_an_ru, JanneS
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT262b, iv_an_ru, JanneS ←
11:31:09 <iv_an_ru> Selects in filters are very convenient.
Ivan Mikhailov: Selects in filters are very convenient. ←
11:31:49 <AxelPolleres> discussion: FROM in subqueries and subwueries in FROM
Axel Polleres: discussion: FROM in subqueries and subwueries in FROM ←
11:32:07 <iv_an_ru> Moreover, select in filter is LIMIT 1 for its parameters, that's a very good hint for optimizer.
Ivan Mikhailov: Moreover, select in filter is LIMIT 1 for its parameters, that's a very good hint for optimizer. ←
11:32:21 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:33:04 <LeeF> issues i've noted so far to be discussed: syntax, variable scope, ASK queries in filters, SELECT queries in FILTER, CONSTRUCT in FROM, CONSTRUCT in CONSTRUCT, defining (new) RDF dataset in subqueries
Lee Feigenbaum: issues i've noted so far to be discussed: syntax, variable scope, ASK queries in filters, SELECT queries in FILTER, CONSTRUCT in FROM, CONSTRUCT in CONSTRUCT, defining (new) RDF dataset in subqueries ←
11:33:34 <LeeF> issues i've noted+: order of result set for subqueries
Lee Feigenbaum: issues i've noted+: order of result set for subqueries ←
11:33:38 <pgearon> AndyS: order in a subquery doesn't do much, but with limit 1 this is a useful optimization
Andy Seaborne: order in a subquery doesn't do much, but with limit 1 this is a useful optimization ←
11:35:09 <AxelPolleres> virtuoso:
Axel Polleres: virtuoso: ←
11:35:28 <AxelPolleres> subqueries in filters, subqueries in graph patterns
Axel Polleres: subqueries in filters, subqueries in graph patterns ←
11:35:28 <pgearon> iv_an_ru: discussing subselect in virtuoso
Ivan Mikhailov: discussing subselect in virtuoso ←
11:36:04 <AxelPolleres> ... sounds overall similar to ARQ, yes?
Axel Polleres: ... sounds overall similar to ARQ, yes? ←
11:37:15 <AxelPolleres> one-result-subselects in FILTERS as well as ASK, yes?
Axel Polleres: one-result-subselects in FILTERS as well as ASK, yes? ←
11:38:02 <pgearon> ... if result contains aggregate and non-aggregate columns, performs search for groupings
... if result contains aggregate and non-aggregate columns, performs search for groupings ←
11:38:20 <AxelPolleres> groupings automatically?
Axel Polleres: groupings automatically? ←
11:38:36 <pgearon> ... possible to specify groupings manually
... possible to specify groupings manually ←
11:39:28 <pgearon> ... parameters available in normal select and in subselect
... parameters available in normal select and in subselect ←
11:40:08 <pgearon> subselects allow only 1 returned column when in a filter
subselects allow only 1 returned column when in a filter ←
11:40:31 <AxelPolleres> implied "limit 1" i.e. "EXISTS"
Axel Polleres: implied "limit 1" i.e. "EXISTS" ←
11:41:24 <pgearon> AndyS: lets you ask "?x IN { SELECT..... }"
Andy Seaborne: lets you ask "?x IN { SELECT..... }" ←
11:41:48 <AxelPolleres> IN {subselects} allowed, but no others like ANY/ALL
Axel Polleres: IN {subselects} allowed, but no others like ANY/ALL ←
11:42:42 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:43:50 <pgearon> iv_an_ru: does not implement CONSTRUCT in subqueries yet, but intends to offer soon, though in different way to what was discussed earlier
Ivan Mikhailov: does not implement CONSTRUCT in subqueries yet, but intends to offer soon, though in different way to what was discussed earlier ←
11:45:30 <AxelPolleres> ivanh talking about FROM ?g { construct { ?s ?p ?o }}...
Axel Polleres: ivanh talking about FROM ?g { construct { ?s ?p ?o }}... ←
11:46:05 <pgearon> iv_an_ru: should be possible to have more than one CONSTRUCT and to test if a triple is found in more than one source
Ivan Mikhailov: should be possible to have more than one CONSTRUCT and to test if a triple is found in more than one source ←
11:46:32 <LeeF> q+ to ask iv_an_ru what they do re: subqueries defining data set
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask iv_an_ru what they do re: subqueries defining data set ←
11:46:50 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:47:30 <LeeF> ack me
Lee Feigenbaum: ack me ←
11:47:30 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask iv_an_ru what they do re: subqueries defining data set
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask iv_an_ru what they do re: subqueries defining data set ←
11:47:37 <pgearon> LeeF: can you define the dataset to query over, and how does this interact
Lee Feigenbaum: can you define the dataset to query over, and how does this interact ←
11:48:47 <pgearon> iv_an_ru: if from / from named specified then this is used instead of specified data
Ivan Mikhailov: if from / from named specified then this is used instead of specified data ←
11:49:17 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: design issue for dataset in query vs. dataset in protocol
Lee Feigenbaum: design issue for dataset in query vs. dataset in protocol [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
11:49:48 <AndyS> sec 8.2: "the protocol description overrides any description in the query itself."
Andy Seaborne: sec 8.2: "the protocol description overrides any description in the query itself." ←
11:51:21 <LeeF> iv_an_ru: a few possible ways to specify dataset
Ivan Mikhailov: a few possible ways to specify dataset [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:51:43 <LeeF> ... by pragma, http param, by query text
Lee Feigenbaum: ... by pragma, http param, by query text ←
11:52:01 <LeeF> ... latter 2 as per spec
Lee Feigenbaum: ... latter 2 as per spec ←
11:52:06 <LeeF> ... prgama is higher priority
Lee Feigenbaum: ... prgama is higher priority ←
11:52:23 <AxelPolleres> iv_an_ru: Virtuoso allows dataset in prgamas, parameters, in the query, pragmas of highest priority
Ivan Mikhailov: Virtuoso allows dataset in prgamas, parameters, in the query, pragmas of highest priority [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
11:52:26 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru
Zakim IRC Bot: -iv_an_ru ←
11:52:27 <LeeF> ... common for selects & subselects
Lee Feigenbaum: ... common for selects & subselects ←
11:52:34 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:52:45 <iv_an_ru> ups, will try to reconnect.
Ivan Mikhailov: ups, will try to reconnect. ←
11:53:47 <AxelPolleres> all I found for SeRQL subselects is here: http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/users/ch06.html
Axel Polleres: all I found for SeRQL subselects is here: http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/users/ch06.html ←
11:54:03 <LeeF> pgearon: in mulgara subqueries are at an API level
Paul Gearon: in mulgara subqueries are at an API level [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:54:11 <LeeF> ... for every binding in a result set, do var. substitution into a subselect
Lee Feigenbaum: ... for every binding in a result set, do var. substitution into a subselect ←
11:54:20 <LeeF> ... then execute subselect for each row in the outer result
Lee Feigenbaum: ... then execute subselect for each row in the outer result ←
11:54:22 <AxelPolleres> paul: in mulgara subselects on the API level.
Paul Gearon: in mulgara subselects on the API level. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
11:54:44 <LeeF> ... if the subselect returns multiple rows, they're all returned, column is not a scalar type, it's a "subanswer"
Lee Feigenbaum: ... if the subselect returns multiple rows, they're all returned, column is not a scalar type, it's a "subanswer" ←
11:54:54 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru
Zakim IRC Bot: +iv_an_ru ←
11:55:03 <LeeF> ... if you're printing results as a table then you get a subtable in that particular column
Lee Feigenbaum: ... if you're printing results as a table then you get a subtable in that particular column ←
11:55:13 <LeeF> AndyS: Effectively have tables in the datatype model?
Andy Seaborne: Effectively have tables in the datatype model? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:55:16 <LeeF> pgearon: yes
Paul Gearon: yes [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:55:28 <LeeF> pgearon: for aggregates we have COUNT which works on a subselect
Paul Gearon: for aggregates we have COUNT which works on a subselect [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:55:53 <LeeF> ... subselect takes variable subst from outer select (as before), executes entire query, and returns count of rows as a scalar
Lee Feigenbaum: ... subselect takes variable subst from outer select (as before), executes entire query, and returns count of rows as a scalar ←
11:55:59 <LeeF> AndyS: So Count is special case?
Andy Seaborne: So Count is special case? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:56:01 <LeeF> pgearon: yes
Paul Gearon: yes [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:56:26 <LeeF> pgearon: subselects appear in SELECT clause not in WHERE clause
Paul Gearon: subselects appear in SELECT clause not in WHERE clause [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
11:56:47 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:56:49 <pgearon> LeeF, thanks
LeeF, thanks ←
11:56:53 <LeeF> np
Lee Feigenbaum: np ←
11:57:06 <AxelPolleres> simon about http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/users/ch06.html#section-nesting
Axel Polleres: simon about http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/users/ch06.html#section-nesting ←
11:57:20 <pgearon> SimonS: Sesame allows subqueries in both graph pattern and filters
Simon Schenk: Sesame allows subqueries in both graph pattern and filters ←
11:57:30 <pgearon> no syntax extension for SPARQL only in SeRQL
no syntax extension for SPARQL only in SeRQL ←
11:58:11 <AxelPolleres> andy/steve: scoping for unions might be different.
Axel Polleres: andy/steve: scoping for unions might be different. ←
11:58:12 <pgearon> ... can have set minus, and unions in graphs
... can have set minus, and unions in graphs ←
11:58:36 <pgearon> ... has ANY and ALL, also has EXISTS
... has ANY and ALL, also has EXISTS ←
11:58:49 <AxelPolleres> simon: exists seems redundant with any.
Simon Schenk: exists seems redundant with any. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
11:59:05 <pgearon> ... evaluates subqueries in the graph pattern, but this can't be accessed
... evaluates subqueries in the graph pattern, but this can't be accessed ←
11:59:12 <JanneS> (will be back shortly)
Janne Saarela: (will be back shortly) ←
11:59:16 <pgearon> .... scoping shared with subqueries
.... scoping shared with subqueries ←
11:59:17 <Zakim> -JanneS
Zakim IRC Bot: -JanneS ←
11:59:29 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
11:59:31 <pgearon> datasets are shared between main query and subqueries
datasets are shared between main query and subqueries ←
11:59:53 <AxelPolleres> ?x > ANY ..
Axel Polleres: ?x > ANY .. ←
12:00:06 <AxelPolleres> ?x > ALL ...
Axel Polleres: ?x > ALL ... ←
12:00:19 <pgearon> AxelPolleres: thinks this makes ANY not redundant
Axel Polleres: thinks this makes ANY not redundant ←
12:00:59 <pgearon> SimonS: says variables are shared (no scoping) which means that ANY can be described in other ways
Simon Schenk: says variables are shared (no scoping) which means that ANY can be described in other ways ←
12:01:10 <AxelPolleres> simon: ANY could be wrapped into EXISTS with normal FILTER... cause of scoping
Simon Schenk: ANY could be wrapped into EXISTS with normal FILTER... cause of scoping [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:02:15 <SimonS> http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/users/ch06.html#section-setoper
Simon Schenk: http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/users/ch06.html#section-setoper ←
12:02:25 <SimonS> set operators.
Simon Schenk: set operators. ←
12:02:50 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
12:04:09 <AxelPolleres> Steve: comp ALL could be emulated with negation.
Steve Harris: comp ALL could be emulated with negation. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:04:24 <pgearon> AndyS: you can do MAX in SPARQL if you have too much time on your hands
Andy Seaborne: you can do MAX in SPARQL if you have too much time on your hands ←
12:05:40 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
12:06:20 <pgearon> LeeF: will be doing subqueries by the end of this weekend
Lee Feigenbaum: will be doing subqueries by the end of this weekend ←
12:06:35 <AxelPolleres> greg, Lee, Eric don't do subqueries...
Axel Polleres: greg, Lee, Eric don't do subqueries... ←
12:06:38 <SimonS> q+ to add something
Simon Schenk: q+ to add something ←
12:07:27 <SimonS> Zakim, ack me
Simon Schenk: Zakim, ack me ←
12:07:27 <Zakim> SimonS, you wanted to add something
Zakim IRC Bot: SimonS, you wanted to add something ←
12:07:29 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
Zakim IRC Bot: I see no one on the speaker queue ←
12:07:30 <pgearon> SimonS: SeRQL has full syntax for subqueries, including limits, from, etc
Simon Schenk: SeRQL has full syntax for subqueries, including limits, from, etc ←
12:07:49 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: FROM in subqueries wrong with the algebra.
Andy Seaborne: FROM in subqueries wrong with the algebra. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:08:49 <pgearon> Mulgara's subqueries only use data from the FROM clause in the subselect
Mulgara's subqueries only use data from the FROM clause in the subselect ←
12:10:13 <iv_an_ru> AxelPolleres, we don't have to make the support of FROM in subselect mandatory for all implementations.
Ivan Mikhailov: AxelPolleres, we don't have to make the support of FROM in subselect mandatory for all implementations. ←
12:11:08 <iv_an_ru> Anyway we have huge amount of implementation-specific options related to FROM / FROM NAMED.
Ivan Mikhailov: Anyway we have huge amount of implementation-specific options related to FROM / FROM NAMED. ←
12:11:43 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: answer of this issue depends on use cases which demand FROM in subselect.
Andy Seaborne: answer of this issue depends on use cases which demand FROM in subselect. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:13:01 <iv_an_ru> FROM is subselect is no more than a syntax sugar, because it's possible to list everything in top-level FROM and add different FILTERs on graphs to different subselects.
Ivan Mikhailov: FROM is subselect is no more than a syntax sugar, because it's possible to list everything in top-level FROM and add different FILTERs on graphs to different subselects. ←
12:13:29 <pgearon> SimonS: federation works be defining "magic name graphs" which can be defined from more than one graph. This makes it a kind of subquery
Simon Schenk: federation works be defining "magic name graphs" which can be defined from more than one graph. This makes it a kind of subquery ←
12:13:40 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: subqueries play some role for federated queries.
Simon Schenk: subqueries play some role for federated queries. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:14:18 <iv_an_ru> I'd name it "federated-per-subquery"
Ivan Mikhailov: I'd name it "federated-per-subquery" ←
12:14:43 <iv_an_ru> SERVICE {} and {SELECT ...} are too similar.
Ivan Mikhailov: SERVICE {} and {SELECT ...} are too similar. ←
12:15:03 <SimonS> +1 iv_an_ru
Simon Schenk: +1 iv_an_ru ←
12:15:04 <pgearon> AxelPolleres: now we've discussed existing implementation we should move to discussion
Axel Polleres: now we've discussed existing implementation we should move to discussion ←
12:15:38 <SteveH> Apropos of nothing I slightly prefer a subquery syntax like SUB { SELECT ... } which is much more obviously similar to SERVICE <> { SELECT ... }
Steve Harris: Apropos of nothing I slightly prefer a subquery syntax like SUB { SELECT ... } which is much more obviously similar to SERVICE <> { SELECT ... } ←
12:16:32 <iv_an_ru> SteveH, it may be { SELECT ... FROM SERVICE <> ... }
Ivan Mikhailov: SteveH, it may be { SELECT ... FROM SERVICE <> ... } ←
12:16:43 <SteveH> oh, good point
Steve Harris: oh, good point ←
12:17:53 <SteveH> or { FROM SERVICE <> SELECT ... } equivalently
Steve Harris: or { FROM SERVICE <> SELECT ... } equivalently ←
12:18:14 <iv_an_ru> SERVICE clause may heve enormous list of options so it should allow more verbosity than just a single IRI. Moreover, even that IRI may be a scalar-expression.
Ivan Mikhailov: SERVICE clause may heve enormous list of options so it should allow more verbosity than just a single IRI. Moreover, even that IRI may be a scalar-expression. ←
12:18:29 <pgearon> LeeF: issues to be discussed. Start with 1) syntax
Lee Feigenbaum: issues to be discussed. Start with 1) syntax ←
12:18:30 <LeeF> ISSUE: subquery syntax (e.g. mandatory curly braces)
ISSUE: subquery syntax (e.g. mandatory curly braces) ←
12:18:30 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-3 - Subquery syntax (e.g. mandatory curly braces) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/3/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-3 - Subquery syntax (e.g. mandatory curly braces) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/3/edit . ←
12:18:47 <KjetilK> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
12:19:26 <AxelPolleres> subqueries in patterns:
Axel Polleres: subqueries in patterns: ←
12:19:26 <AxelPolleres> SUBSELECTS as solutions sets
Axel Polleres: SUBSELECTS as solutions sets ←
12:19:26 <AxelPolleres> subqueries in FILTERS:
Axel Polleres: subqueries in FILTERS: ←
12:19:26 <AxelPolleres> ASK (EXISTS), IN, ANY, ALL
Axel Polleres: ASK (EXISTS), IN, ANY, ALL ←
12:19:26 <AxelPolleres> subqueries in FROM:
Axel Polleres: subqueries in FROM: ←
12:19:28 <AxelPolleres> CONSTRUCT
Axel Polleres: CONSTRUCT ←
12:20:30 <LeeF> ack kjetil
Lee Feigenbaum: ack kjetil ←
12:20:37 <LeeF> ack KjetilK
Lee Feigenbaum: ack KjetilK ←
12:20:59 <pgearon> KjetilK: wants a description of the motivation for this issue
Kjetil Kjernsmo: wants a description of the motivation for this issue ←
12:21:36 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
12:24:14 <pgearon> AxelPolleres: which type of queries will we allow?
Axel Polleres: which type of queries will we allow? ←
12:25:29 <bglimm> For me the issue shows a drop down box for who raised it and Baget is alphabetically first
Birte Glimm: For me the issue shows a drop down box for who raised it and Baget is alphabetically first ←
12:25:42 <pgearon> LeeF: what variable scope to use between main query and subqueries?
Lee Feigenbaum: what variable scope to use between main query and subqueries? ←
12:25:46 <LeeF> ISSUE: What is the variable scope between main queries and subqueries?
ISSUE: What is the variable scope between main queries and subqueries? ←
12:25:46 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-4 - What is the variable scope between main queries and subqueries? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/4/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-4 - What is the variable scope between main queries and subqueries? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/4/edit . ←
12:26:03 <LeeF> ISSUE: ASK queries in FILTERs?
ISSUE: ASK queries in FILTERs? ←
12:26:03 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-5 - ASK queries in FILTERs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/5/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-5 - ASK queries in FILTERs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/5/edit . ←
12:26:07 <LeeF> ISSUE: SELECT queries in FILTERs?
ISSUE: SELECT queries in FILTERs? ←
12:26:07 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-6 - SELECT queries in FILTERs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/6/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-6 - SELECT queries in FILTERs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/6/edit . ←
12:26:20 <LeeF> ISSUE: CONSTRUCT & DESCRIBE queries in FROM [NAMED]?
ISSUE: CONSTRUCT & DESCRIBE queries in FROM [NAMED]? ←
12:26:21 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-7 - CONSTRUCT & DESCRIBE queries in FROM [NAMED]? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/7/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-7 - CONSTRUCT & DESCRIBE queries in FROM [NAMED]? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/7/edit . ←
12:26:39 <LeeF> ISSUE: What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries?
ISSUE: What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? ←
12:26:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-8 - What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/8/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-8 - What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/8/edit . ←
12:28:21 <LeeF> ISSUE: SELECT queries in graph patterns?
ISSUE: SELECT queries in graph patterns? ←
12:28:21 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-9 - SELECT queries in graph patterns? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/9/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-9 - SELECT queries in graph patterns? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/9/edit . ←
12:28:28 <LeeF> ISSUE: ASK queries in graph patterns?
ISSUE: ASK queries in graph patterns? ←
12:28:28 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-10 - ASK queries in graph patterns? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/10/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-10 - ASK queries in graph patterns? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/10/edit . ←
12:29:17 <pgearon> q+
q+ ←
12:30:12 <pgearon> AxelPolleres: suggesting champions for each type of subselect, aggregates, etc
Axel Polleres: suggesting champions for each type of subselect, aggregates, etc ←
12:30:17 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
12:31:03 <LeeF> pgearon: Do we allow some way to count the entire results of a subquery?
Paul Gearon: Do we allow some way to count the entire results of a subquery? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
12:31:59 <pgearon> LeeF: syntax? should we use { SELECT ... } ?
Lee Feigenbaum: syntax? should we use { SELECT ... } ? ←
12:32:39 <pgearon> SteveH: preference for a keyword before a subquery
Steve Harris: preference for a keyword before a subquery ←
12:33:14 <iv_an_ru> Preference for keyword inside {} because most of customers have SQL background.
Ivan Mikhailov: Preference for keyword inside {} because most of customers have SQL background. ←
12:33:36 <pgearon> question about whether braces should be mandatory
question about whether braces should be mandatory ←
12:34:02 <LeeF> <seems to be general consensus around mandatory curly braces and no "subqyery keyword">
Lee Feigenbaum: <seems to be general consensus around mandatory curly braces and no "subqyery keyword"> ←
12:34:49 <LeeF> Regrets+ yimin
Lee Feigenbaum: Regrets+ yimin ←
12:35:25 <pgearon> AndyS: scoping evaluation should be handled in terms of overall evaluation (so look at that question first)
Andy Seaborne: scoping evaluation should be handled in terms of overall evaluation (so look at that question first) ←
12:36:12 <pgearon> LeeF: are variables that are only in a subquery, local to just that subquery?
Lee Feigenbaum: are variables that are only in a subquery, local to just that subquery? ←
12:36:42 <LeeF> ?p a foaf:Person . { SELECT ?name { ?p a ex:Airport ; dc:title ?name } }
Lee Feigenbaum: ?p a foaf:Person . { SELECT ?name { ?p a ex:Airport ; dc:title ?name } } ←
12:37:08 <pgearon> so "select *" will only get projected variables from a subquery
so "select *" will only get projected variables from a subquery ←
12:37:19 <AxelPolleres> Andy: would * not propagate variables from subqueries that are not projected...
Andy Seaborne: would * not propagate variables from subqueries that are not projected... [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:37:31 <iv_an_ru> Yes, local-only variables are local :)
Ivan Mikhailov: Yes, local-only variables are local :) ←
12:38:29 <iv_an_ru> * is a shorthand for variables that may be bound in WHERE {...} top-level pattern, so what's the issue?
Ivan Mikhailov: * is a shorthand for variables that may be bound in WHERE {...} top-level pattern, so what's the issue? ←
12:38:42 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc how to use trackbot
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc how to use trackbot ←
12:39:22 <pgearon> AndyS: unprojected variables in an outer query will not be available in a subquery
Andy Seaborne: unprojected variables in an outer query will not be available in a subquery ←
12:39:27 <LeeF> ISSUE-3: <seems to be general consensus around mandatory curly braces and no "subqyery keyword"
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-3: <seems to be general consensus around mandatory curly braces and no "subqyery keyword" ←
12:39:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-3 Subquery syntax (e.g. mandatory curly braces) notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-3 Subquery syntax (e.g. mandatory curly braces) notes added ←
12:40:06 <LeeF> ISSUE-4: general consensus around the fact that non-projected variables in a subquery are not visible outside the subquery
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-4: general consensus around the fact that non-projected variables in a subquery are not visible outside the subquery ←
12:40:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-4 What is the variable scope between main queries and subqueries? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-4 What is the variable scope between main queries and subqueries? notes added ←
12:40:43 <AxelPolleres> Andy: in DB engines join is commutative, so order-dependance is bad for optimizations
Andy Seaborne: in DB engines join is commutative, so order-dependance is bad for optimizations [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:40:44 <SimonS> CONSTRUCT
Simon Schenk: CONSTRUCT ←
12:40:44 <SimonS> { ?X ex:hasFriends
Simon Schenk: { ?X ex:hasFriends ←
12:40:44 <SimonS> {COUNT ?X WHERE ?P foaf:knows ?X}
Simon Schenk: {COUNT ?X WHERE ?P foaf:knows ?X} ←
12:40:44 <SimonS> }
Simon Schenk: } ←
12:40:44 <SimonS> WHERE {?P a foaf:Person}
Simon Schenk: WHERE {?P a foaf:Person} ←
12:41:28 <pgearon> AndyS: outer variables would affect joins. So outer evaluation first would make it impossible to implement with an SQL engine, due to impossibility to do join optimization
Andy Seaborne: outer variables would affect joins. So outer evaluation first would make it impossible to implement with an SQL engine, due to impossibility to do join optimization ←
12:41:59 <iv_an_ru> It should be possible to begin with subqueries.
Ivan Mikhailov: It should be possible to begin with subqueries. ←
12:42:38 <AndyS> +1 to iv_an_ru -- clear cut semantics
Andy Seaborne: +1 to iv_an_ru -- clear cut semantics ←
12:42:39 <SimonS> CONSTRUCT { ?P ex:hasFriends ?F } WHERE { ?P a foaf:Person. SELECT COUNT(?X) AS ?F WHERE { ?P foaf:knows ?X } }
Simon Schenk: CONSTRUCT { ?P ex:hasFriends ?F } WHERE { ?P a foaf:Person. SELECT COUNT(?X) AS ?F WHERE { ?P foaf:knows ?X } } ←
12:45:03 <LeeF> SteveH: preseve join semantics, consequence of that is that unprojected variables don't leak out
Steve Harris: preseve join semantics, consequence of that is that unprojected variables don't leak out [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
12:45:18 <pgearon> SteveH: want to protect join semantics, which implies that unprojected variables are not seen
Steve Harris: want to protect join semantics, which implies that unprojected variables are not seen ←
12:45:19 <AndyS> Same issue as { {?x :p ?v } { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) }
Andy Seaborne: Same issue as { {?x :p ?v } { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } ←
12:45:45 <iv_an_ru> SimonS, shuold be just CONSTRUCT { ?P ex:hasFriends ?F } WHERE { SELECT ?P, COUNT(?X) AS ?F WHERE { ?P foaf:knows ?X } }
Ivan Mikhailov: SimonS, shuold be just CONSTRUCT { ?P ex:hasFriends ?F } WHERE { SELECT ?P, COUNT(?X) AS ?F WHERE { ?P foaf:knows ?X } } ←
12:46:00 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
12:46:02 <AndyS> Same issue as { {?x :p ?v } { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } }
Andy Seaborne: Same issue as { {?x :p ?v } { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } ←
12:47:07 <pgearon> AndyS: generate test cases soon?
Andy Seaborne: generate test cases soon? ←
12:47:46 <pgearon> SteveH: may be too soon for syntax
Steve Harris: may be too soon for syntax ←
12:49:55 <pgearon> AxelPolleres: would like example queries with scoping issues
Axel Polleres: would like example queries with scoping issues ←
12:50:06 <pgearon> LeeF: will write example
Lee Feigenbaum: will write example ←
12:50:14 <AndyS> { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } }
Andy Seaborne: { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } ←
12:50:54 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to send fleshed out example of Andy's subquery to the list { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } }
ACTION: LeeF to send fleshed out example of Andy's subquery to the list { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } ←
12:50:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Send fleshed out example of Andy's subquery to the list { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-16 - Send fleshed out example of Andy's subquery to the list { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14]. ←
12:51:05 <iv_an_ru> AndyS, Virtuoso would raise an error in debug mode.
Ivan Mikhailov: AndyS, Virtuoso would raise an error in debug mode. ←
12:51:48 <AndyS> { ?x :p ?v { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } }
Andy Seaborne: { ?x :p ?v { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } ←
12:51:57 <pgearon> AndyS, Mulgara would be fine, given that it prebinds ?x and ?v before executing the subselect
AndyS, Mulgara would be fine, given that it prebinds ?x and ?v before executing the subselect ←
12:52:22 <pgearon> should that be detected, and used to determine evaluation order?
should that be detected, and used to determine evaluation order? ←
12:52:29 <pgearon> Or does that preclude SQL engines?
Or does that preclude SQL engines? ←
12:52:29 <AxelPolleres> { ?x :p ?v { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>?w) } } } more interesting?
Axel Polleres: { ?x :p ?v { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>?w) } } } more interesting? ←
12:52:45 <AndyS> pgearon, so not relational algebra evalaution?
Andy Seaborne: pgearon, so not relational algebra evalaution? ←
12:52:59 <iv_an_ru> No evaluation order should be assumed --- keep the optimizer's hands free from that.
Ivan Mikhailov: No evaluation order should be assumed --- keep the optimizer's hands free from that. ←
12:53:26 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
12:53:37 <pgearon> AndyS, well.... I'm just raising it as a possibility :-)
AndyS, well.... I'm just raising it as a possibility :-) ←
12:53:41 <AndyS> :-)
Andy Seaborne: :-) ←
12:54:06 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru
Zakim IRC Bot: -iv_an_ru ←
12:54:16 <iv_an_ru> AxelPolleres, in your variant Virtuoso will treat ?v in subselect as a constant NULL (and it can report the suspicious variable as an error).
Ivan Mikhailov: AxelPolleres, in your variant Virtuoso will treat ?v in subselect as a constant NULL (and it can report the suspicious variable as an error). ←
12:54:16 <pgearon> after all, it makes sense in some circumstances. I like Axel's example
after all, it makes sense in some circumstances. I like Axel's example ←
12:55:02 <AxelPolleres> SteveH: concern about ASK in FILTER raises scoping question
Steve Harris: concern about ASK in FILTER raises scoping question [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
12:55:05 <LeeF> ACTION: SteveH to write up case around confusion between ASK in FILTER and ASK in WHERE
ACTION: SteveH to write up case around confusion between ASK in FILTER and ASK in WHERE ←
12:55:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Write up case around confusion between ASK in FILTER and ASK in WHERE [on Steve Harris - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-17 - Write up case around confusion between ASK in FILTER and ASK in WHERE [on Steve Harris - due 2009-05-14]. ←
12:55:35 <iv_an_ru> What's the purpose of ASK in WHERE ?
Ivan Mikhailov: What's the purpose of ASK in WHERE ? ←
12:55:42 <AndyS> Hmm - had better scope variables locally in negation if unmentioned elsewhere
Andy Seaborne: Hmm - had better scope variables locally in negation if unmentioned elsewhere ←
12:56:28 <SteveH> With a URI?
Steve Harris: With a URI? ←
12:56:43 <LeeF> ISSUE-5: See ACTION-17
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-5: See ACTION-17 ←
12:56:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-5 ASK queries in FILTERs? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-5 ASK queries in FILTERs? notes added ←
12:56:45 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: AxelPolleres to write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation
ACTION: AxelPolleres to write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation ←
12:56:45 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - AxelPolleres
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - AxelPolleres ←
12:56:54 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation
ACTION: Axel to write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation ←
12:56:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-18 - Write up a use case on !ASK in FILTERS to emulate negation [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-05-14]. ←
12:57:01 <LeeF> ISSUE-5?
12:57:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- ASK queries in FILTERs? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-5 -- ASK queries in FILTERs? -- OPEN ←
12:57:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/5
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/5 ←
12:57:36 <ericP> good bot
Eric Prud'hommeaux: good bot ←
12:57:47 <LeeF> ISSUE-5: See ACTION-18 for interplay with negation
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-5: See ACTION-18 for interplay with negation ←
12:57:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-5 ASK queries in FILTERs? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-5 ASK queries in FILTERs? notes added ←
12:58:59 <pgearon> AxelPolleres: to issues 6 - select queries on filters
Axel Polleres: to issues 6 - select queries on filters ←
12:59:14 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
12:59:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT262b
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT262b ←
12:59:52 <KjetilK> iv_an_ru, could you please post some examples of SELECT queries in FILTERs?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: iv_an_ru, could you please post some examples of SELECT queries in FILTERs? ←
12:59:58 <LeeF> iv_an_ru, I wonder if you could send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs?
Lee Feigenbaum: iv_an_ru, I wonder if you could send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs? ←
13:00:06 <iv_an_ru> ok
Ivan Mikhailov: ok ←
13:00:17 <LeeF> ACTION: iv_an_ru to send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs
ACTION: iv_an_ru to send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs ←
13:00:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs [on ivanh Mikhailov - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-19 - Send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs [on ivanh Mikhailov - due 2009-05-14]. ←
13:00:29 <LeeF> ISSUE-6: See ACTION-19
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-6: See ACTION-19 ←
13:00:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-6 SELECT queries in FILTERs? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-6 SELECT queries in FILTERs? notes added ←
13:00:32 <ericP> Zakim, MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP ←
13:00:36 <Zakim> +pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP; got it ←
13:00:44 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: suggest to use ALL/ANY queries for that
Andy Seaborne: suggest to use ALL/ANY queries for that [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
13:00:47 <LeeF> ISSUE-7?
13:00:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- CONSTRUCT & DESCRIBE queries in FROM [NAMED]? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- CONSTRUCT & DESCRIBE queries in FROM [NAMED]? -- OPEN ←
13:00:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/7
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/7 ←
13:00:48 <iv_an_ru> Something real-life or as simple as possible?
Ivan Mikhailov: Something real-life or as simple as possible? ←
13:01:04 <LeeF> iv_an_ru, both? I prefer simple to real-life though :)
Lee Feigenbaum: iv_an_ru, both? I prefer simple to real-life though :) ←
13:01:10 <iv_an_ru> ok
Ivan Mikhailov: ok ←
13:03:01 <AxelPolleres> CONSTRUCT { ?a knows ?b . ?a foaf:name ?aname . ?b foaf:name ?bname . }
Axel Polleres: CONSTRUCT { ?a knows ?b . ?a foaf:name ?aname . ?b foaf:name ?bname . } ←
13:03:01 <AxelPolleres> FROM { CONSTRUCT { _:auth foaf:name ?n . ?p aux:hasAuthor _:auth . }
Axel Polleres: FROM { CONSTRUCT { _:auth foaf:name ?n . ?p aux:hasAuthor _:auth . } ←
13:03:01 <AxelPolleres> FROM <g> WHERE { ?p dc:creator ?n . } }
Axel Polleres: FROM <g> WHERE { ?p dc:creator ?n . } } ←
13:03:01 <AxelPolleres> WHERE { ?p aux:hasAuthor ?a . ?a foaf:name ?aname .
Axel Polleres: WHERE { ?p aux:hasAuthor ?a . ?a foaf:name ?aname . ←
13:03:01 <AxelPolleres> ?p aux:hasAuthor ?b . ?b foaf:name ?bname . FILTER ( ?a != ?b ) }
Axel Polleres: ?p aux:hasAuthor ?b . ?b foaf:name ?bname . FILTER ( ?a != ?b ) } ←
13:03:30 <pgearon> LeeF: should construct and describe in from be allowed?
Lee Feigenbaum: should construct and describe in from be allowed? ←
13:05:59 <LeeF> ACTION: Axel to send CONSTRUCT in FROM clause use case to mailing list re: ISSUE-7
ACTION: Axel to send CONSTRUCT in FROM clause use case to mailing list re: ISSUE-7 ←
13:05:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Send CONSTRUCT in FROM clause use case to mailing list re: ISSUE-7 [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-20 - Send CONSTRUCT in FROM clause use case to mailing list re: ISSUE-7 [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-05-14]. ←
13:06:08 <LeeF> ISSUE-8?
13:06:08 <trackbot> ISSUE-8 -- What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-8 -- What determines the RDF dataset for subqueries? -- OPEN ←
13:06:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/8
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/8 ←
13:06:24 <pgearon> can that include examples on DESCRIBE in a FROM? I don't follow that one
can that include examples on DESCRIBE in a FROM? I don't follow that one ←
13:06:46 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to summarize dataset issue w/ examples / suggestions per ISSUE-8
ACTION: LeeF to summarize dataset issue w/ examples / suggestions per ISSUE-8 ←
13:06:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Summarize dataset issue w/ examples / suggestions per ISSUE-8 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-21 - Summarize dataset issue w/ examples / suggestions per ISSUE-8 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14]. ←
13:06:53 <LeeF> ISSUE-9?
13:06:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- SELECT queries in graph patterns? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-9 -- SELECT queries in graph patterns? -- OPEN ←
13:06:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/9
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/9 ←
13:07:30 <Zakim> +JanneS
Zakim IRC Bot: +JanneS ←
13:08:38 <LeeF> ISSUE-10?
13:08:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- ASK queries in graph patterns? -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-10 -- ASK queries in graph patterns? -- OPEN ←
13:08:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/10
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/10 ←
13:09:20 <LeeF> ISSUE-10: See ACTION-17
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-10: See ACTION-17 ←
13:09:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-10 ASK queries in graph patterns? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-10 ASK queries in graph patterns? notes added ←
13:28:22 <Zakim> -JanneS
(No events recorded for 19 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -JanneS ←
13:36:23 <LeeF> topic: aggregates
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
13:37:24 <AlexPassant> scribe: AlexPassant
(Scribe set to Alex Passant)
13:37:31 <LeeF> ScribeNick: AlexPassant
13:38:02 <AlexPassant> LeeF: Overview of existing systems that do aggregates
Lee Feigenbaum: Overview of existing systems that do aggregates ←
13:38:24 <AlexPassant> ... what the syntax is like, which aggregates are supported
... what the syntax is like, which aggregates are supported ←
13:38:37 <AlexPassant> ... and any relevant information for each approach
... and any relevant information for each approach ←
13:39:00 <AlexPassant> SteveH: COUNT, MIN, MAX
Steve Harris: COUNT, MIN, MAX ←
13:39:11 <AlexPassant> ... restricted to particular subtypes
... restricted to particular subtypes ←
13:39:22 <AlexPassant> ... COUNT * is mainly used
... COUNT * is mainly used ←
13:39:37 <AlexPassant> ... using Dave Beckett syntax
... using Dave Beckett syntax ←
13:39:50 <SteveH> (COUNT(DISTINCT *)) AS c
Steve Harris: (COUNT(DISTINCT *)) AS c ←
13:40:04 <AlexPassant> LeeF: do you group by
Lee Feigenbaum: do you group by ←
13:40:05 <AlexPassant> SteveH: no
Steve Harris: no ←
13:40:22 <AlexPassant> ... implemented for a particular use-case
... implemented for a particular use-case ←
13:40:37 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: implcit grouping ?
Axel Polleres: implcit grouping ? ←
13:40:49 <AlexPassant> SteveH: distinct is a kind of
Steve Harris: distinct is a kind of ←
13:41:14 <AxelPolleres> SELECT ?x (count... ) not possible, yes?
Axel Polleres: SELECT ?x (count... ) not possible, yes? ←
13:41:46 <AlexPassant> AndyS: no grouping, same value on each row
Andy Seaborne: no grouping, same value on each row ←
13:42:57 <AlexPassant> LeeF: distinct in some implementations to remove duplicates, then group and aggregates,
Lee Feigenbaum: distinct in some implementations to remove duplicates, then group and aggregates, ←
13:43:08 <AlexPassant> ... having clause for values that don't match the criteria
... having clause for values that don't match the criteria ←
13:43:39 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: summarizes possiblities for aggregates in SQL: aggregates, groupin, having clauses
Lee Feigenbaum: summarizes possiblities for aggregates in SQL: aggregates, groupin, having clauses [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
13:44:15 <AlexPassant> AndyS: GROUPing, then aggregates to each of the group
Andy Seaborne: GROUPing, then aggregates to each of the group ←
13:44:26 <AlexPassant> ... implements 4 variations of COUNT
... implements 4 variations of COUNT ←
13:44:38 <AlexPassant> ... don't think average is done
... don't think average is done ←
13:45:12 <AlexPassant> ... issues around MIN and MAX on different types (eg: string / age)
... issues around MIN and MAX on different types (eg: string / age) ←
13:45:21 <pgearon> COUNT - variable, *, distinct, non-distinct
Paul Gearon: COUNT - variable, *, distinct, non-distinct ←
13:46:29 <AlexPassant> LeeF: implicit grouping ?
Lee Feigenbaum: implicit grouping ? ←
13:46:40 <AlexPassant> AndyS: if there's no GROUP , the whole thing is a group
Andy Seaborne: if there's no GROUP , the whole thing is a group ←
13:47:03 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
13:47:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT262b
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT262b ←
13:47:04 <Zakim> MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP ←
13:47:43 <ericP> q+ to ask if you can do e.g. count and avg on the same group
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask if you can do e.g. count and avg on the same group ←
13:48:05 <AlexPassant> AndyS: implements HAVING
Andy Seaborne: implements HAVING ←
13:48:13 <LeeF> ack ericP
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ericP ←
13:48:13 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if you can do e.g. count and avg on the same group
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask if you can do e.g. count and avg on the same group ←
13:48:30 <AndyS> http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf slide 6+
Andy Seaborne: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf slide 6+ ←
13:48:41 <AlexPassant> ericP: can you do more than one aggregate on the same group
Eric Prud'hommeaux: can you do more than one aggregate on the same group ←
13:49:00 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
13:49:01 <AlexPassant> AndyS: yes - it should work
Andy Seaborne: yes - it should work ←
13:49:31 <LukeWM> q+ to ask about ask
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ to ask about ask ←
13:49:42 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
13:50:01 <AlexPassant> SteveH: wondering if someone implements GROUP_CONCAT() ?
Steve Harris: wondering if someone implements GROUP_CONCAT() ? ←
13:50:09 <AlexPassant> ... perl-style join
... perl-style join ←
13:51:01 <AlexPassant> .... different from the regular CONCAT as it works on GROUP
.... different from the regular CONCAT as it works on GROUP ←
13:51:14 <LeeF> ack LukeWM
Lee Feigenbaum: ack LukeWM ←
13:51:14 <Zakim> LukeWM, you wanted to ask about ask
Zakim IRC Bot: LukeWM, you wanted to ask about ask ←
13:51:41 <AlexPassant> LukeWM: do you combine ASK and HAVING ?
Luke Wilson-Mawer: do you combine ASK and HAVING ? ←
13:52:04 <AlexPassant> AndyS: it could be done
Andy Seaborne: it could be done ←
13:53:01 <pgearon> q+ to ask if you can do subselects in having
Paul Gearon: q+ to ask if you can do subselects in having ←
13:53:08 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
13:53:08 <Zakim> pgearon, you wanted to ask if you can do subselects in having
Zakim IRC Bot: pgearon, you wanted to ask if you can do subselects in having ←
13:53:20 <AlexPassant> pgearon: subselects in a having ?
Paul Gearon: subselects in a having ? ←
13:56:27 <pgearon> I'll try to write a subquery to be executed in a having clause that causes execution order problems
Paul Gearon: I'll try to write a subquery to be executed in a having clause that causes execution order problems ←
13:56:34 <AlexPassant> AndyS: COUNT is the most-used aggregate
Andy Seaborne: COUNT is the most-used aggregate ←
13:56:43 <AxelPolleres> Issues I noted so far:
Axel Polleres: Issues I noted so far: ←
13:56:43 <AxelPolleres> * GROUP By vs 1 column only
Axel Polleres: * GROUP By vs 1 column only ←
13:56:43 <AxelPolleres> * implicit grouping vs explicit only
Axel Polleres: * implicit grouping vs explicit only ←
13:56:43 <AxelPolleres> * HAVING clauses
Axel Polleres: * HAVING clauses ←
13:56:43 <AxelPolleres> * several aggregates per GROUP
Axel Polleres: * several aggregates per GROUP ←
13:56:43 <AxelPolleres> * GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery
Axel Polleres: * GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery ←
13:56:45 <LeeF> ACTION: Paul to write a subquery to be executed in a having clause that causes execution order problems for the list
ACTION: Paul to write a subquery to be executed in a having clause that causes execution order problems for the list ←
13:56:45 <AxelPolleres> * subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs)
Axel Polleres: * subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs) ←
13:56:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Write a subquery to be executed in a having clause that causes execution order problems for the list [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-22 - Write a subquery to be executed in a having clause that causes execution order problems for the list [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-05-14]. ←
13:56:47 <AxelPolleres> * paul's example for problems with HAVING...? (more an ACTION on the previous than an own issue, it seems)
Axel Polleres: * paul's example for problems with HAVING...? (more an ACTION on the previous than an own issue, it seems) ←
13:58:17 <AlexPassant> LeeF: OpenAnzo : similar to AndyS approach, GROUPing needs to be expressed
Lee Feigenbaum: OpenAnzo : similar to AndyS approach, GROUPing needs to be expressed ←
13:58:34 <AlexPassant> ... implements COUNT (differnt versions), SUM,
... implements COUNT (differnt versions), SUM, ←
13:58:40 <AlexPassant> ... AVERAGE, MIN, MAX
... AVERAGE, MIN, MAX ←
13:58:42 <SteveH> q+ to talk about projecting non-grouped variables
Steve Harris: q+ to talk about projecting non-grouped variables ←
13:59:30 <AlexPassant> ... SAMPLE (says I want to group by but want only one random example in that row)
... SAMPLE (says I want to group by but want only one random example in that row) ←
13:59:45 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask whether SAMPLE is nondeterministic?
Axel Polleres: q+ to ask whether SAMPLE is nondeterministic? ←
13:59:48 <AlexPassant> see: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SampleAggregate
see: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SampleAggregate ←
14:00:03 <SimonS> q+ to ask whether SAMPLE can be done usng subselect LIMIT 1
Simon Schenk: q+ to ask whether SAMPLE can be done usng subselect LIMIT 1 ←
14:00:05 <AlexPassant> ... should also implement HAVING
... should also implement HAVING ←
14:00:26 <AlexPassant> ... AVERAGE DISTINCT is also supported
... AVERAGE DISTINCT is also supported ←
14:00:40 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
14:00:40 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about projecting non-grouped variables
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about projecting non-grouped variables ←
14:01:23 <AlexPassant> SteveH: prohibiting to project non-grouped variables
Steve Harris: prohibiting to project non-grouped variables ←
14:01:33 <LeeF> ack SimonS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SimonS ←
14:01:33 <Zakim> SimonS, you wanted to ask whether SAMPLE can be done usng subselect LIMIT 1
Zakim IRC Bot: SimonS, you wanted to ask whether SAMPLE can be done usng subselect LIMIT 1 ←
14:02:00 <AlexPassant> SimonS: could sample be done with SUBSELECT + LIMIT 1 ?
Simon Schenk: could sample be done with SUBSELECT + LIMIT 1 ? ←
14:02:27 <AlexPassant> AndyS: It shouldn't be due to the grouping
Andy Seaborne: It shouldn't be due to the grouping ←
14:02:42 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
14:02:42 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask whether SAMPLE is nondeterministic?
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask whether SAMPLE is nondeterministic? ←
14:02:56 <AlexPassant> LeeF: SAMPLE is explicitly non deterministic
Lee Feigenbaum: SAMPLE is explicitly non deterministic ←
14:04:00 <SteveH> otherwise you can't ORDER BY rand(), which is v. important
Steve Harris: otherwise you can't ORDER BY rand(), which is v. important ←
14:04:09 <LeeF> AlexPassant: ARC2 implements average, min, max, sum
Alex Passant: ARC2 implements average, min, max, sum [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:04:11 <AlexPassant> http://arc.semsol.org/docs/v2/sparql+
http://arc.semsol.org/docs/v2/sparql+ ←
14:04:27 <AxelPolleres> Axel: a bit worried about nondet, but REDUCED, LIMIT without ORDER are also already nondet.
Axel Polleres: a bit worried about nondet, but REDUCED, LIMIT without ORDER are also already nondet. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
14:04:30 <LeeF> ... count too
Lee Feigenbaum: ... count too ←
14:05:47 <AlexPassant> ... GROUP BY is mandatory
... GROUP BY is mandatory ←
14:05:49 <SteveH> and DESCRIBE
Steve Harris: and DESCRIBE ←
14:06:27 <AlexPassant> kasei: RDF::Query implements MIN, MAX, AVERAGE
Greg Williams: RDF::Query implements MIN, MAX, AVERAGE ←
14:09:00 <AlexPassant> AndyS: what about "MIN of a string" of "MIN of number" ?
Andy Seaborne: what about "MIN of a string" of "MIN of number" ? ←
14:10:51 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about whether this is type promotion in the sense of http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#promotion
Axel Polleres: q+ to ask about whether this is type promotion in the sense of http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#promotion ←
14:11:21 <AndyS> q+ to say "no it isn't" :-)
Andy Seaborne: q+ to say "no it isn't" :-) ←
14:12:01 <AlexPassant> kasei: that is possible also if you cast the value
Greg Williams: that is possible also if you cast the value ←
14:12:43 <AlexPassant> AndyS: different point of view, not about casting, but about querying for the right type
Andy Seaborne: different point of view, not about casting, but about querying for the right type ←
14:13:04 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
14:13:04 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about whether this is type promotion in the sense of http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#promotion
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about whether this is type promotion in the sense of http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#promotion ←
14:13:12 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
14:13:12 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say "no it isn't" :-)
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to say "no it isn't" :-) ←
14:14:01 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: we could follow the promotion rules from http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#promotion/ in some cases
Axel Polleres: we could follow the promotion rules from http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#promotion/ in some cases ←
14:14:34 <AlexPassant> LeeF: will go through AndyS slides and check AxelPolleres e-mail proposal
Lee Feigenbaum: will go through AndyS slides and check AxelPolleres e-mail proposal ←
14:14:38 <AndyS> I think we have (almost) to because the rest of evaluation does in FILTER.
Andy Seaborne: I think we have (almost) to because the rest of evaluation does in FILTER. ←
14:15:07 <AxelPolleres> Issues I noted so far:
Axel Polleres: Issues I noted so far: ←
14:15:08 <AxelPolleres> * GROUP BY vs 1 column only
Axel Polleres: * GROUP BY vs 1 column only ←
14:15:08 <AxelPolleres> * implicit grouping vs explicit only
Axel Polleres: * implicit grouping vs explicit only ←
14:15:08 <AxelPolleres> * HAVING clauses
Axel Polleres: * HAVING clauses ←
14:15:08 <AxelPolleres> * several aggregates per GROUP
Axel Polleres: * several aggregates per GROUP ←
14:15:09 <AxelPolleres> * GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery
Axel Polleres: * GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery ←
14:15:10 <AxelPolleres> * subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs)
Axel Polleres: * subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs) ←
14:15:12 <AxelPolleres> * paul's example for problems with HAVING...? (more an ACTION on the previous than an own issue, it seems)
Axel Polleres: * paul's example for problems with HAVING...? (more an ACTION on the previous than an own issue, it seems) ←
14:15:14 <AxelPolleres> * which aggregates? COUNT (which version?), SUM, AVG, MIN, MAX, SAMPLE (nondeterministic)
Axel Polleres: * which aggregates? COUNT (which version?), SUM, AVG, MIN, MAX, SAMPLE (nondeterministic) ←
14:15:35 <AndyS> http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf // slide 9
Andy Seaborne: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf // slide 9 ←
14:15:35 <LeeF> http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf
Lee Feigenbaum: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf ←
14:15:36 <AxelPolleres> * datatype promotion/implicit casts for arithmetic aggregates? e.g. min over strings and numbers, avg over integers, etc.
Axel Polleres: * datatype promotion/implicit casts for arithmetic aggregates? e.g. min over strings and numbers, avg over integers, etc. ←
14:16:00 <AlexPassant> AndyS: slide 9, highlighted part in the algebra is the subselect part
Andy Seaborne: slide 9, highlighted part in the algebra is the subselect part ←
14:16:11 <AlexPassant> ... got filter, having, group,
... got filter, having, group, ←
14:16:30 <AlexPassant> ... list of aggregates operator and temporary variables
... list of aggregates operator and temporary variables ←
14:17:04 <AlexPassant> .... group is covered (phase 1: turn everything into group)
.... group is covered (phase 1: turn everything into group) ←
14:17:09 <AlexPassant> ... then calculate aggregate values
... then calculate aggregate values ←
14:17:13 <AlexPassant> .... then asign temp variables
.... then asign temp variables ←
14:19:18 <AlexPassant> LeeF: have a similar implementation
Lee Feigenbaum: have a similar implementation ←
14:19:58 <AlexPassant> AndyS: can only aggregate over things that are not grouped
Andy Seaborne: can only aggregate over things that are not grouped ←
14:22:08 <AlexPassant> LeeF: expected subqueries to be harder to implement than aggregates
Lee Feigenbaum: expected subqueries to be harder to implement than aggregates ←
14:22:23 <AlexPassant> AndyS: should depend on the implementation
Andy Seaborne: should depend on the implementation ←
14:22:32 <AlexPassant> http://www.polleres.net/presentations/20090506SPARQL_aggregates_as_subqueries.pdf
http://www.polleres.net/presentations/20090506SPARQL_aggregates_as_subqueries.pdf ←
14:23:19 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: do we want to go syntaxically to SQL or to declarative logic programming ?
Axel Polleres: do we want to go syntaxically to SQL or to declarative logic programming ? ←
14:23:26 <AndyS> q+ to ask about a use case
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about a use case ←
14:23:48 <AlexPassant> ... proposal: aggregate subqueries
... proposal: aggregate subqueries ←
14:24:08 <LukeWM> q+ to ask about scoping
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ to ask about scoping ←
14:24:23 <AlexPassant> ... {
AGG
Vars
WHERE
Pattern
}

... {
AGG
Vars
WHERE
Pattern
}
 ←
14:24:27 <AlexPassant> ... example on slide #3
... example on slide #3 ←
14:24:46 <AlexPassant> ... should be ?P ex:hasFriends
... should be ?P ex:hasFriends ←
14:25:17 <AlexPassant> SteveH: how do you control the projection of P, that will appear inside the subselect
Steve Harris: how do you control the projection of P, that will appear inside the subselect ←
14:25:31 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: bindings of the overall query will be replaced in the CONSTRUCT
Axel Polleres: bindings of the overall query will be replaced in the CONSTRUCT ←
14:27:26 <AlexPassant> ... can have nested queries with FILTER and aggregate
... can have nested queries with FILTER and aggregate ←
14:27:38 <AlexPassant> ... not sure I can nest aggregates
... not sure I can nest aggregates ←
14:28:03 <bglimm> q+
Birte Glimm: q+ ←
14:28:21 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
14:28:21 <Zakim> LukeWM, you wanted to ask about scoping
Zakim IRC Bot: LukeWM, you wanted to ask about scoping ←
14:28:37 <AlexPassant> ... what I like about it: being inspired by logical programming
... what I like about it: being inspired by logical programming ←
14:28:44 <AlexPassant> ... not as intuitive for people coming from SQL
... not as intuitive for people coming from SQL ←
14:29:31 <AlexPassant> ericP: expressivity issue (e.g. duplicate) may be a problem
Eric Prud'hommeaux: expressivity issue (e.g. duplicate) may be a problem ←
14:29:54 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:30:31 <LeeF> q+ to ask about grammar effects / need for a keyword
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask about grammar effects / need for a keyword ←
14:30:46 <AlexPassant> ... the WHERE clause is an arbitrary pattern
... the WHERE clause is an arbitrary pattern ←
14:30:48 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
14:30:48 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about a use case
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about a use case ←
14:31:26 <AlexPassant> AndyS: how do you write query like "how many people live in each places" based on a people / place dataset
Andy Seaborne: how do you write query like "how many people live in each places" based on a people / place dataset ←
14:31:34 <SteveH> a minor drawback if that impl. don't get to add their own aggregate functions without adding keywords to that language
Steve Harris: a minor drawback if that impl. don't get to add their own aggregate functions without adding keywords to that language ←
14:31:55 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: GROUP BY is implicit, done by the subquery
Axel Polleres: GROUP BY is implicit, done by the subquery ←
14:32:06 <AlexPassant> ... don't know how to group by expression
... don't know how to group by expression ←
14:33:27 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:35:33 <LeeF> ack bglimm
Lee Feigenbaum: ack bglimm ←
14:36:13 <AlexPassant> bglimm: is that computionnaly more expensive ?
Birte Glimm: is that computionnaly more expensive ? ←
14:36:43 <AlexPassant> ... need to compute subqueries and then compute
... need to compute subqueries and then compute ←
14:36:54 <AlexPassant> SteveH: optimiser can do that job
Steve Harris: optimiser can do that job ←
14:37:28 <AlexPassant> bglimm: it should be more complex to implement efficiently
Birte Glimm: it should be more complex to implement efficiently ←
14:38:06 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:39:17 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:39:21 <LeeF> ack me
Lee Feigenbaum: ack me ←
14:39:21 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask about grammar effects / need for a keyword
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask about grammar effects / need for a keyword ←
14:40:54 <AlexPassant> LeeF: it seems there is a general consensus for the SQL-style
Lee Feigenbaum: it seems there is a general consensus for the SQL-style ←
14:41:52 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:42:06 <AlexPassant> LeeF: go through issues
Lee Feigenbaum: go through issues ←
14:42:47 <KjetilK> q+ to note that Virtuoso has implicit GROUP BY
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ to note that Virtuoso has implicit GROUP BY ←
14:44:21 <AlexPassant> ericP: other proposal: pushing the aggregates in the pattern, but happy with the SQL style
Eric Prud'hommeaux: other proposal: pushing the aggregates in the pattern, but happy with the SQL style ←
14:44:52 <LeeF> ack KjetilK
Lee Feigenbaum: ack KjetilK ←
14:44:52 <Zakim> KjetilK, you wanted to note that Virtuoso has implicit GROUP BY
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK, you wanted to note that Virtuoso has implicit GROUP BY ←
14:45:05 <KjetilK> a query in https://submarine.computas.com/mediasone-maven/trunk/scripts/munin-plugins/graphs generates http://msonetest.computas.no/munin/computas.no/msonetest.computas.no-graphs.html
Kjetil Kjernsmo: a query in https://submarine.computas.com/mediasone-maven/trunk/scripts/munin-plugins/graphs generates http://msonetest.computas.no/munin/computas.no/msonetest.computas.no-graphs.html ←
14:45:19 <AlexPassant> KjetilK: Virtuoso got a kind of explicit GROUP BY
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Virtuoso got a kind of explicit GROUP BY ←
14:46:08 <AlexPassant> ... grouping by type, then get count per type
... grouping by type, then get count per type ←
14:48:17 <AxelPolleres> Issues I noted so far:
Axel Polleres: Issues I noted so far: ←
14:48:17 <AxelPolleres> * GROUP BY vs 1 column only
Axel Polleres: * GROUP BY vs 1 column only ←
14:48:17 <AxelPolleres> * implicit vs explicit GROUPing
Axel Polleres: * implicit vs explicit GROUPing ←
14:48:17 <AxelPolleres> * HAVING clauses
Axel Polleres: * HAVING clauses ←
14:48:17 <AxelPolleres> * several aggregates per GROUP
Axel Polleres: * several aggregates per GROUP ←
14:48:17 <AxelPolleres> * subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs)
Axel Polleres: * subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs) ←
14:48:19 <AxelPolleres> * paul's example for problems with HAVING...? (more an ACTION on the previous than an own issue, it seems)
Axel Polleres: * paul's example for problems with HAVING...? (more an ACTION on the previous than an own issue, it seems) ←
14:48:21 <AxelPolleres> * which aggregates? COUNT (which version?), SUM, AVG, MIN, MAX, SAMPLE (nondeterministic)
Axel Polleres: * which aggregates? COUNT (which version?), SUM, AVG, MIN, MAX, SAMPLE (nondeterministic) ←
14:48:23 <AxelPolleres> * Extensibility of aggregates (with own agg. functions, e.g. GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery)
Axel Polleres: * Extensibility of aggregates (with own agg. functions, e.g. GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery) ←
14:48:26 <AxelPolleres> * datatype promotion/implicit casts for arithmetic aggregates? e.g. min over strings and numbers, avg over integers, etc.
Axel Polleres: * datatype promotion/implicit casts for arithmetic aggregates? e.g. min over strings and numbers, avg over integers, etc. ←
14:48:29 <AxelPolleres> * (not) all variables need to be grouped/aggregated (the last one could well be a subissue of explicit/implicit grouping), e.g.
Axel Polleres: * (not) all variables need to be grouped/aggregated (the last one could well be a subissue of explicit/implicit grouping), e.g. ←
14:48:32 <AxelPolleres> SELECT ?name
Axel Polleres: SELECT ?name ←
14:48:35 <AxelPolleres> {
Axel Polleres: { ←
14:48:37 <AxelPolleres> { SELECT ?x
Axel Polleres: { SELECT ?x ←
14:48:38 <AxelPolleres> { ?x foaf:knows?y . ?z a foaf:Person}
Axel Polleres: { ?x foaf:knows?y . ?z a foaf:Person} ←
14:48:40 <AxelPolleres> GROUP BY ?x
Axel Polleres: GROUP BY ?x ←
14:48:42 <AxelPolleres> HAVING (count(?y) > 10)
Axel Polleres: HAVING (count(?y) > 10) ←
14:48:44 <AxelPolleres> }
Axel Polleres: } ←
14:48:46 <AxelPolleres> ?x foaf:name?name
Axel Polleres: ?x foaf:name?name ←
14:49:03 <AxelPolleres> }
Axel Polleres: } ←
14:49:59 <AlexPassant> LeeF: do not need an issue for the GROUP BY vs 1 column only
Lee Feigenbaum: do not need an issue for the GROUP BY vs 1 column only ←
14:50:06 <LeeF> ISSUE: implicit vs explicit GROUPing
ISSUE: implicit vs explicit GROUPing ←
14:50:06 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-11 - Implicit vs explicit GROUPing ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/11/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-11 - Implicit vs explicit GROUPing ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/11/edit . ←
14:50:20 <AlexPassant> ... GROUPing: imiplicit vs explicit ? creating issue
... GROUPing: imiplicit vs explicit ? creating issue ←
14:50:36 <AlexPassant> ... volunteer to present the issue on the ML and telecon
... volunteer to present the issue on the ML and telecon ←
14:50:48 <kasei> q+ to ask about HAVING syntax
Greg Williams: q+ to ask about HAVING syntax ←
14:50:52 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to summarize implicit vs. explicit grouping re ISSUE-11
ACTION: LeeF to summarize implicit vs. explicit grouping re ISSUE-11 ←
14:50:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Summarize implicit vs. explicit grouping re ISSUE-11 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-23 - Summarize implicit vs. explicit grouping re ISSUE-11 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14]. ←
14:51:05 <LeeF> ack kasei
Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei ←
14:51:05 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about HAVING syntax
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei, you wanted to ask about HAVING syntax ←
14:51:47 <LeeF> ISSUE: presence and syntactic detail of HAVING clause
ISSUE: presence and syntactic detail of HAVING clause ←
14:51:47 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-12 - Presence and syntactic detail of HAVING clause ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/12/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-12 - Presence and syntactic detail of HAVING clause ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/12/edit . ←
14:53:01 <LeeF> ISSUE-12: general consensus that we need equivalent of a HAVING clause
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-12: general consensus that we need equivalent of a HAVING clause ←
14:53:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-12 Presence and syntactic detail of HAVING clause notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-12 Presence and syntactic detail of HAVING clause notes added ←
14:55:54 <LeeF> ISSUE: subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs
ISSUE: subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs ←
14:55:54 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-13 - Subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/13/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-13 - Subqueries in HAVING analogous to subqueries in FILTERs ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/13/edit . ←
14:56:23 <AxelPolleres> examples would be nice with subwqueries in HAVING
Axel Polleres: examples would be nice with subwqueries in HAVING ←
14:56:44 <AlexPassant> LeeF: which aggregates ?
Lee Feigenbaum: which aggregates ? ←
14:56:48 <LeeF> ISSUE: which aggregates to include
ISSUE: which aggregates to include ←
14:56:48 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-14 - Which aggregates to include ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/14/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-14 - Which aggregates to include ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/14/edit . ←
14:56:59 <LeeF> ISSUE: extensibility of aggregate functions
ISSUE: extensibility of aggregate functions ←
14:56:59 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-15 - Extensibility of aggregate functions ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/15/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-15 - Extensibility of aggregate functions ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/15/edit . ←
14:57:13 <LeeF> ISSUE-14: we're talking about which aggregate functions to include in SPARQL/Query
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-14: we're talking about which aggregate functions to include in SPARQL/Query ←
14:57:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-14 Which aggregates to include notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-14 Which aggregates to include notes added ←
14:58:32 <LeeF> ISSUE-15: with own agg. functions, e.g. GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-15: with own agg. functions, e.g. GROUP concat ... could be generalized to other functions on sequences from XPath/Xquery ←
14:58:32 <trackbot> ISSUE-15 Extensibility of aggregate functions notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-15 Extensibility of aggregate functions notes added ←
15:00:15 <AxelPolleres> how about fn:concat() ... non-aggreagating , fn:concat(()) ... aggregating , or alike?
Axel Polleres: how about fn:concat() ... non-aggreagating , fn:concat(()) ... aggregating , or alike? ←
15:00:25 <AxelPolleres> ... not optimal, just a strawman
Axel Polleres: ... not optimal, just a strawman ←
15:00:34 <LeeF> ISSUE: dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes
ISSUE: dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes ←
15:00:35 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-16 - Dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-16 - Dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/16/edit . ←
15:00:44 <LeeF> ISSUE-16: datatype promotion/implicit casts for arithmetic aggregates? e.g. min over strings and numbers, avg over integers, etc.
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-16: datatype promotion/implicit casts for arithmetic aggregates? e.g. min over strings and numbers, avg over integers, etc. ←
15:00:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-16 Dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-16 Dealing with aggregates over mixed datatypes notes added ←
15:01:21 <SteveH> AxelPolleres: x:fn((0)) is currently legal syntax
Axel Polleres: x:fn((0)) is currently legal syntax [ Scribe Assist by Steve Harris ] ←
15:01:26 <SteveH> sorry, , not :
Steve Harris: sorry, , not : ←
15:01:32 <AlexPassant> SimonS: is that about defining the range of aggregate functions ?
Simon Schenk: is that about defining the range of aggregate functions ? ←
15:01:35 <LeeF> ACTION: AndyS to explain potential design regarding aggregate functions with multiple answers for mixed datatypes re ISSUE-16
ACTION: AndyS to explain potential design regarding aggregate functions with multiple answers for mixed datatypes re ISSUE-16 ←
15:01:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Explain potential design regarding aggregate functions with multiple answers for mixed datatypes re ISSUE-16 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-24 - Explain potential design regarding aggregate functions with multiple answers for mixed datatypes re ISSUE-16 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-05-14]. ←
<LeeF> topic: Feature design template
15:04:43 <KjetilK> +1 for AndyS template stuff
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 for AndyS template stuff ←
15:05:08 <SteveH> +1 for lunch
Steve Harris: +1 for lunch ←
15:05:19 <AlexPassant> AndyS: about Feature specification template
Andy Seaborne: about Feature specification template ←
15:05:29 <AlexPassant> ... having a standard template helped to look at the features
... having a standard template helped to look at the features ←
15:06:06 <AlexPassant> ... slide 11 of the pdf
... slide 11 of the pdf ←
15:07:11 <AlexPassant> ... definition, syntax, operator (arguments, how it is evaluated ...), mapping abstract syntax / algebra
... definition, syntax, operator (arguments, how it is evaluated ...), mapping abstract syntax / algebra ←
15:07:24 <AlexPassant> ... then test cases
... then test cases ←
15:07:49 <AlexPassant> LeeF: +1 for the idea
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 for the idea ←
15:09:50 <AlexPassant> ericP: downside is that editors need to subscribe to RSS feeds of wiki changes to make sure everything is in sync
Eric Prud'hommeaux: downside is that editors need to subscribe to RSS feeds of wiki changes to make sure everything is in sync ←
15:12:00 <AlexPassant> LeeF: needs to setup a template for the wiki page
Lee Feigenbaum: needs to setup a template for the wiki page ←
15:12:56 <AlexPassant> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FeatureProposal
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FeatureProposal ←
15:12:58 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FeatureProposal
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FeatureProposal ←
15:13:34 <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to setup wiki template and feature stub pages based on slide 11 of http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf
ACTION: LeeF to setup wiki template and feature stub pages based on slide 11 of http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf ←
15:13:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Setup wiki template and feature stub pages based on slide 11 of http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-25 - Setup wiki template and feature stub pages based on slide 11 of http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-F2F1-AFS.pdf [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-05-14]. ←
15:13:41 <AlexPassant> ericP: wiki editing is protected to WG members
Eric Prud'hommeaux: wiki editing is protected to WG members ←
15:14:25 <LeeF> ACTION: AndyS to stub out an initial example of a filled in feature template pending completion of ACTION-25
ACTION: AndyS to stub out an initial example of a filled in feature template pending completion of ACTION-25 ←
15:14:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Stub out an initial example of a filled in feature template pending completion of ACTION-25 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-26 - Stub out an initial example of a filled in feature template pending completion of ACTION-25 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-05-14]. ←
15:15:23 <SteveH> \o/
Steve Harris: \o/ ←
15:15:28 <AxelPolleres> +1 for lunch
Axel Polleres: +1 for lunch ←
15:15:28 <AndyS> Back in 60 mins
Andy Seaborne: Back in 60 mins ←
<LeeF> topic: SPARQL/Update
16:09:13 <AxelPolleres> we will continue with Update after the break... keep these links handy for the moment:
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Axel Polleres: we will continue with Update after the break... keep these links handy for the moment: ←
16:09:15 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/Submission/SPARQL-Update/
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/Submission/SPARQL-Update/ ←
16:10:41 <AxelPolleres> http://arc.semsol.org/docs/v2/sparql+
Axel Polleres: http://arc.semsol.org/docs/v2/sparql+ ←
16:10:52 <AxelPolleres> plus Andy's slides that we used before
Axel Polleres: plus Andy's slides that we used before ←
16:20:34 <KjetilK> ScribeNick: KjetilK
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
(Scribe set to Kjetil Kjernsmo)
16:26:38 <KjetilK> Topic: SPARQL Update session
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16:26:51 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: lets follow the same pattern
Axel Polleres: lets follow the same pattern ←
16:27:08 <KjetilK> ... we have the submission from AndyS and others
... we have the submission from AndyS and others ←
16:27:19 <KjetilK> ... AndyS, kan you take over here?
... AndyS, kan you take over here? ←
16:27:31 <SteveH> q+ to talk about PUT, when Andy's finished
Steve Harris: q+ to talk about PUT, when Andy's finished ←
16:28:03 <KjetilK> AndyS: in spite of the fact that there is a long list of supporters, this proposal is a statement of general discussion
Andy Seaborne: in spite of the fact that there is a long list of supporters, this proposal is a statement of general discussion ←
16:28:22 <KjetilK> ... not a final and "best solution", so there is reason to expect changes
... not a final and "best solution", so there is reason to expect changes ←
16:28:58 <KjetilK> ... SPARQL Update has the idea of an RDF graph
... SPARQL Update has the idea of an RDF graph ←
16:29:27 <AxelPolleres> relation GraphStore/Dataset 1:n? m:n?
Axel Polleres: relation GraphStore/Dataset 1:n? m:n? ←
16:29:36 <KjetilK> ... it has a different name, so that we don't make a tie between the query language and the update language
... it has a different name, so that we don't make a tie between the query language and the update language ←
16:29:46 <AxelPolleres> protocol not yet in the submission.
Axel Polleres: protocol not yet in the submission. ←
16:29:56 <KjetilK> ... protocol not yet in the submission
... protocol not yet in the submission ←
16:30:20 <KjetilK> ... there is also a SOAP protocol for SPARQL, so we need to look into that
... there is also a SOAP protocol for SPARQL, so we need to look into that ←
16:30:28 <KjetilK> ... doing POST is quite common
... doing POST is quite common ←
16:31:07 <AxelPolleres> SILENT means doesn't expect a response?
Axel Polleres: SILENT means doesn't expect a response? ←
16:31:09 <SteveH> q+ to ask about CREATE GRAPH as noop
Steve Harris: q+ to ask about CREATE GRAPH as noop ←
16:31:15 <SteveH> q?
Steve Harris: q? ←
16:31:17 <KjetilK> http://www.w3.org/Submission/SPARQL-Update/
http://www.w3.org/Submission/SPARQL-Update/ ←
16:31:44 <KjetilK> AndyS walks through the submission
AndyS walks through the submission ←
16:32:27 <LeeF> Eeeenteresting
Lee Feigenbaum: Eeeenteresting ←
16:32:40 <KjetilK> INSERT INTO is nice if you get streams of triples without variables
INSERT INTO is nice if you get streams of triples without variables ←
16:32:48 <SimonS> +q to ask about multi graph documents in load
Simon Schenk: +q to ask about multi graph documents in load ←
16:33:03 <SteveH> q+ to ask about potential different between CLEAR and delete
Steve Harris: q+ to ask about potential different between CLEAR and delete ←
16:33:04 <KjetilK> AndyS: is this the right model?
Andy Seaborne: is this the right model? ←
16:33:12 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about * for INTO URI
Axel Polleres: q+ to ask about * for INTO URI ←
16:33:19 <KjetilK> ... what use cases are not covered?
... what use cases are not covered? ←
16:33:44 <KjetilK> ... submission recommends atomic updates
... submission recommends atomic updates ←
16:33:45 <pgearon> There's no proposal for syntax around transactions?
Paul Gearon: There's no proposal for syntax around transactions? ←
16:34:11 <KjetilK> ... transactions aren't very webby?
... transactions aren't very webby? ←
16:34:33 <KjetilK> ... doesn't seem very wrong to do a lightweight solutions
... doesn't seem very wrong to do a lightweight solutions ←
16:34:44 <KjetilK> ... Security is a big issue
... Security is a big issue ←
16:34:58 <pgearon> Mulgara takes the approach of a single updating thread, and we're regularly criticized for it
Paul Gearon: Mulgara takes the approach of a single updating thread, and we're regularly criticized for it ←
16:35:02 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
16:35:02 <AndyS> q?
Andy Seaborne: q? ←
16:35:18 <SteveH> Zakim, ack me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ack me ←
16:35:18 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about PUT, when Andy's finished and to ask about CREATE GRAPH as noop and to ask about potential different between CLEAR and delete
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about PUT, when Andy's finished and to ask about CREATE GRAPH as noop and to ask about potential different between CLEAR and delete ←
16:35:21 <Zakim> I see SimonS, AxelPolleres on the speaker queue
Zakim IRC Bot: I see SimonS, AxelPolleres on the speaker queue ←
16:36:16 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:36:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT262b
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT262b ←
16:36:17 <KjetilK> AndyS: Virtuoso has something very close
Andy Seaborne: Virtuoso has something very close ←
16:36:18 <Zakim> MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP ←
16:36:33 <KjetilK> KjetilK: we didn't make any changes when migrating
Kjetil Kjernsmo: we didn't make any changes when migrating ←
16:38:45 <KjetilK> SimonS: is there any difference between being empty and being non-existent?
Simon Schenk: is there any difference between being empty and being non-existent? ←
16:38:50 <KjetilK> AndyS: yes
Andy Seaborne: yes ←
16:39:41 <AxelPolleres> empty graphs vs. quead-stores
Axel Polleres: empty graphs vs. quead-stores ←
16:39:41 <pgearon> I'd like to note that quad stores can have the notion of an empty graph (Mulgara does this)
Paul Gearon: I'd like to note that quad stores can have the notion of an empty graph (Mulgara does this) ←
16:40:50 <LeeF> FWIW Anzo distinguishes between empty graphs & non-existent graphs. *shrug*
Lee Feigenbaum: FWIW Anzo distinguishes between empty graphs & non-existent graphs. *shrug* ←
16:41:10 <KjetilK> SteveH: there is a difference between quad store and a triple store in this case
Steve Harris: there is a difference between quad store and a triple store in this case ←
16:41:41 <AxelPolleres> like SQL DB's typically have some system tables...
Axel Polleres: like SQL DB's typically have some system tables... ←
16:41:42 <KjetilK> pgearon: we have a system graph
Paul Gearon: we have a system graph ←
16:42:09 <KjetilK> AndyS: it is a issue how ambitious we are re graph management
Andy Seaborne: it is a issue how ambitious we are re graph management ←
16:42:17 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
16:43:04 <KjetilK> SteveH: you can use DROP GRAPH, which is stronger than CLEAR GRAPH
Steve Harris: you can use DROP GRAPH, which is stronger than CLEAR GRAPH ←
16:43:39 <KjetilK> SteveH: we implement PUT on the endpoint, so you can PUT triples to a graph
Steve Harris: we implement PUT on the endpoint, so you can PUT triples to a graph ←
16:44:31 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
16:44:59 <KjetilK> ericP: this is the way you can do that now, you can put on the graph URI and it updates the named graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: this is the way you can do that now, you can put on the graph URI and it updates the named graph ←
16:46:04 <KjetilK> ... the endpoint would distinguish the endpoint from the graphs by the path
... the endpoint would distinguish the endpoint from the graphs by the path ←
16:47:05 <LeeF> ack SimonS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SimonS ←
16:47:05 <Zakim> SimonS, you wanted to ask about multi graph documents in load
Zakim IRC Bot: SimonS, you wanted to ask about multi graph documents in load ←
16:47:05 <KjetilK> SimonS: Sesame has a RESTful API where you can PUT and DELETE graphs
Simon Schenk: Sesame has a RESTful API where you can PUT and DELETE graphs ←
16:47:16 <SteveH> Want to add for the record, we re-use the HTTP 1.0 proxy syntax to write to other graphs
Steve Harris: Want to add for the record, we re-use the HTTP 1.0 proxy syntax to write to other graphs ←
16:47:19 <SteveH> but it's quite ugly
Steve Harris: but it's quite ugly ←
16:47:30 <AlexPassant> YARS seems to have a similar approach that sesame - http://sw.deri.org/2004/06/yars/
Alex Passant: YARS seems to have a similar approach that sesame - http://sw.deri.org/2004/06/yars/ ←
16:47:35 <SteveH> eg. PUT http://localhost/sparql/http://foo.com/data.rdf
Steve Harris: eg. PUT http://localhost/sparql/http://foo.com/data.rdf ←
16:47:36 <KjetilK> SimonS: MODIFY is sort of a CONSTRUCT query, right?
Simon Schenk: MODIFY is sort of a CONSTRUCT query, right? ←
16:48:03 <KjetilK> ...i.e. the the pattern is similar
...i.e. the the pattern is similar ←
16:48:14 <KjetilK> ...so you cannot modify several graphs?
...so you cannot modify several graphs? ←
16:48:31 <KjetilK> AndyS: yes, it is very centered around modify _a_ graph
Andy Seaborne: yes, it is very centered around modify _a_ graph ←
16:48:32 <LeeF> How does MODIFY specify what graph receives inserted triples?
Lee Feigenbaum: How does MODIFY specify what graph receives inserted triples? ←
16:49:00 <AxelPolleres> SimonS: asks for dynamically setting the graph in MODIFY
Simon Schenk: asks for dynamically setting the graph in MODIFY [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
16:49:05 <KjetilK> ... you will need to mix queries and update statements to do everything you need
... you will need to mix queries and update statements to do everything you need ←
16:50:48 <KjetilK> AndyS: it is not a full-blown language for all the updates you may want to do
Andy Seaborne: it is not a full-blown language for all the updates you may want to do ←
16:50:58 <pgearon> q+
Paul Gearon: q+ ←
16:51:31 <KjetilK> ericP: it should be accompanied by a media type?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: it should be accompanied by a media type? ←
16:52:11 <KjetilK> AndyS: we don't know yet if it will be transported over HTTP
Andy Seaborne: we don't know yet if it will be transported over HTTP ←
16:54:35 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
16:54:36 <KjetilK> SimonS: you say that the default graph should always exist
Simon Schenk: you say that the default graph should always exist ←
16:54:38 <KjetilK> AndyS: that
Andy Seaborne: that ←
16:54:55 <KjetilK> AndyS: that's inherited from SPARQL/Query
Andy Seaborne: that's inherited from SPARQL/Query ←
16:56:31 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: LOAD can't just add to all graphs
Axel Polleres: LOAD can't just add to all graphs ←
16:56:44 <bglimm> q+
Birte Glimm: q+ ←
16:57:03 <KjetilK> SteveH: is load additive?
Steve Harris: is load additive? ←
16:57:05 <KjetilK> AndyS: yes
Andy Seaborne: yes ←
16:57:48 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: issues like concurrency, is that dealt with in the submission?
Axel Polleres: issues like concurrency, is that dealt with in the submission? ←
16:58:06 <KjetilK> AndyS: yes, it says it is atomic, but the WG must address it
Andy Seaborne: yes, it says it is atomic, but the WG must address it ←
16:58:31 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
16:59:13 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: graph store vs dataset, what?
Axel Polleres: graph store vs dataset, what? ←
16:59:31 <KjetilK> AndyS: it is a difficult distinction, and I changed it many times
Andy Seaborne: it is a difficult distinction, and I changed it many times ←
17:00:29 <KjetilK> ... you may have a huge system with many graphs, where you cannot access all graphs on any endpoint
... you may have a huge system with many graphs, where you cannot access all graphs on any endpoint ←
17:00:49 <KjetilK> ... and you may have something that operates on just a single default graph
... and you may have something that operates on just a single default graph ←
17:01:30 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:01:36 <AxelPolleres> ack AxelPolleres
Axel Polleres: ack AxelPolleres ←
17:01:36 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about * for INTO URI
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about * for INTO URI ←
17:01:40 <KjetilK> ack pgearon
ack pgearon ←
17:02:24 <KjetilK> pgearon: you can have many FROMs, does that mean you delete triples from all graphs?
Paul Gearon: you can have many FROMs, does that mean you delete triples from all graphs? ←
17:02:54 <KjetilK> AndyS: it is unclear, but the idea was that you run the same operation on each graph
Andy Seaborne: it is unclear, but the idea was that you run the same operation on each graph ←
17:03:47 <KjetilK> pgearon: I can see the use case where you SELECT from one graph to another
Paul Gearon: I can see the use case where you SELECT from one graph to another ←
17:04:25 <LeeF> Can someone that understands this more than me type out how I would say "INSERT the foaf:knows triples from 3 different graphs into a 4th graph"? Can I say that?
Lee Feigenbaum: Can someone that understands this more than me type out how I would say "INSERT the foaf:knows triples from 3 different graphs into a 4th graph"? Can I say that? ←
17:05:16 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:05:35 <AndyS> LeeF, do as 3 operations in one request (a request is zero or more of the ops in the language)
Andy Seaborne: LeeF, do as 3 operations in one request (a request is zero or more of the ops in the language) ←
17:05:52 <SimonS> q+ to ask if there are ideas of reusing some security mechanism
Simon Schenk: q+ to ask if there are ideas of reusing some security mechanism ←
17:06:23 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: insert and delete are idempotent, but not mixed together
Andy Seaborne: insert and delete are idempotent, but not mixed together [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
17:07:22 <LeeF> AndyS, I see, thanks
Lee Feigenbaum: AndyS, I see, thanks ←
17:09:46 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:10:13 <kasei> is there any reason why the grammar allows just Prologue as a valid update request?
Greg Williams: is there any reason why the grammar allows just Prologue as a valid update request? ←
17:10:51 <KjetilK> bglimm: what is the default graph?
Birte Glimm: what is the default graph? ←
17:11:16 <KjetilK> ... it could be an empty ontology?
... it could be an empty ontology? ←
17:11:19 <KjetilK> AndyS: yes
Andy Seaborne: yes ←
17:12:10 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:12:17 <AxelPolleres> ack bglimm
Axel Polleres: ack bglimm ←
17:13:14 <KjetilK> SimonS: do you have any idea of reusing any security mechanisms, and if so what?
Simon Schenk: do you have any idea of reusing any security mechanisms, and if so what? ←
17:13:26 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:13:29 <KjetilK> AndyS: I tend to do service-based security,
Andy Seaborne: I tend to do service-based security, ←
17:13:32 <AxelPolleres> ack SimonS
Axel Polleres: ack SimonS ←
17:13:32 <Zakim> SimonS, you wanted to ask if there are ideas of reusing some security mechanism
Zakim IRC Bot: SimonS, you wanted to ask if there are ideas of reusing some security mechanism ←
17:13:45 <KjetilK> ...i.e. not in the data, on the endpoint
...i.e. not in the data, on the endpoint ←
17:14:00 <KjetilK> ... you have security in Jetty, Tomcat, etc.
... you have security in Jetty, Tomcat, etc. ←
17:14:34 <AlexPassant> http://arc.semsol.org/docs/v2/sparql+
Alex Passant: http://arc.semsol.org/docs/v2/sparql+ ←
17:15:01 <KjetilK> AlexPassant: there are some differences in ARC2, which is sparql+
Alex Passant: there are some differences in ARC2, which is sparql+ ←
17:15:18 <KjetilK> AlexPassant summarizes
AlexPassant summarizes ←
17:15:19 <ericP> q+ to talk describe grammar differences
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to talk describe grammar differences ←
17:16:07 <KjetilK> AlexPassant: the main difference is INSERT DATA and DELETE DATA
Alex Passant: the main difference is INSERT DATA and DELETE DATA ←
17:16:32 <KjetilK> s/INSERT INTO/INSERT DATA/
s/INSERT INTO/INSERT DATA/ ←
17:16:39 <AlexPassant> SPARQL+ supports LOAD, INSERT, DELETE
Alex Passant: SPARQL+ supports LOAD, INSERT, DELETE ←
17:17:02 <AlexPassant> no DROP (but DELETE GRAPH), no CLEAR, no CREATE
Alex Passant: no DROP (but DELETE GRAPH), no CLEAR, no CREATE ←
17:17:15 <KjetilK> AlexPassant: it does only HTTP POST
Alex Passant: it does only HTTP POST ←
17:17:15 <AlexPassant> API key for updates via HTTP POST
Alex Passant: API key for updates via HTTP POST ←
17:17:48 <SimonS> like Eric's INSERT GRAPH patterns
Simon Schenk: like Eric's INSERT GRAPH patterns ←
17:19:17 <pgearon> http://mulgara.org/trac/wiki/TQLUserGuide
Paul Gearon: http://mulgara.org/trac/wiki/TQLUserGuide ←
17:19:54 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/SPARQLfed/ SPARQLfed
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/SPARQLfed/ SPARQLfed ←
17:20:22 <AxelPolleres> mulgara has transactions
Axel Polleres: mulgara has transactions ←
17:21:05 <KjetilK> AndyS: we had some transaction stuff, but we took it out
Andy Seaborne: we had some transaction stuff, but we took it out ←
17:21:06 <LeeF> q+ to ask about 'return values'
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask about 'return values' ←
17:21:16 <LeeF> ack ericp
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ericp ←
17:21:16 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to talk describe grammar differences
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to talk describe grammar differences ←
17:21:56 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARUL_EGP?lang=perl&markup=html SPARUL Ã la ericP
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARUL_EGP?lang=perl&markup=html SPARUL Ã la ericP ←
17:22:48 <KjetilK> LeeF: what would you get back?
Lee Feigenbaum: what would you get back? ←
17:23:02 <KjetilK> AndyS: ask yourself: What would HTTP do?
Andy Seaborne: ask yourself: What would HTTP do? ←
17:23:11 <KjetilK> ...you get a response code
...you get a response code ←
17:24:00 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:24:01 <LeeF> SPARQL/Update: HTTP response code: 200 + # of triples touched (try to avoid touching anywhere from 1 - 399 triples)
Lee Feigenbaum: SPARQL/Update: HTTP response code: 200 + # of triples touched (try to avoid touching anywhere from 1 - 399 triples) ←
17:24:07 <LeeF> ack me
Lee Feigenbaum: ack me ←
17:24:07 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask about 'return values'
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask about 'return values' ←
17:24:40 <AxelPolleres> * concurrency issues?
Axel Polleres: * concurrency issues? ←
17:24:40 <AxelPolleres> * securtity mechanisms
Axel Polleres: * securtity mechanisms ←
17:24:40 <AxelPolleres> * empty graphs vs. quad-stores
Axel Polleres: * empty graphs vs. quad-stores ←
17:24:40 <AxelPolleres> more update operations?
Axel Polleres: more update operations? ←
17:24:40 <AxelPolleres> * protocol issue? HTTP PUT/POST, SOAP, content negotiation/switch for mediatype?
Axel Polleres: * protocol issue? HTTP PUT/POST, SOAP, content negotiation/switch for mediatype? ←
17:24:41 <AxelPolleres> * issue: MODIFY deletes and inserts all graphs?
Axel Polleres: * issue: MODIFY deletes and inserts all graphs? ←
17:24:43 <AxelPolleres> * move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to)
Axel Polleres: * move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ←
17:24:44 <ericP> SPARULfed example: INSERT { GRAPH <foo> { ?x foaf:know ?y . ?y foaf:knows ?x } } BINDINGS (?x ?y) { (<bob> <sue>) (<mary> <jane>) }
Eric Prud'hommeaux: SPARULfed example: INSERT { GRAPH <foo> { ?x foaf:know ?y . ?y foaf:knows ?x } } BINDINGS (?x ?y) { (<bob> <sue>) (<mary> <jane>) } ←
17:24:45 <AxelPolleres> * dynamic graph (variable) for graph to update/modify
Axel Polleres: * dynamic graph (variable) for graph to update/modify ←
17:24:47 <AxelPolleres> * conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions
Axel Polleres: * conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions ←
17:25:08 <KjetilK> AndyS: what is the problem being solved?
Andy Seaborne: what is the problem being solved? ←
17:25:26 <pgearon> q+ to comment on commonality between proposals
Paul Gearon: q+ to comment on commonality between proposals ←
17:25:36 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
17:25:36 <Zakim> pgearon, you wanted to comment on commonality between proposals
Zakim IRC Bot: pgearon, you wanted to comment on commonality between proposals ←
17:25:42 <KjetilK> ...a minimal solution is to delete and insert triples in an existing graph
...a minimal solution is to delete and insert triples in an existing graph ←
17:26:12 <KjetilK> pgearon: all proposals come up with very similar ideas
Paul Gearon: all proposals come up with very similar ideas ←
17:26:24 <AxelPolleres> * minimal (delete, insert triples only )vs fully-fledged solution
Axel Polleres: * minimal (delete, insert triples only )vs fully-fledged solution ←
17:26:45 <LeeF> SPARQL/Update: The Lemmings Edition?
Lee Feigenbaum: SPARQL/Update: The Lemmings Edition? ←
17:26:58 <KjetilK> ...the basic functionality is pretty much the same
...the basic functionality is pretty much the same ←
17:27:49 <KjetilK> AndyS: what worries me is the lack of things that calls it into question, are we charging in perfect harmony over the edge of a cliff?
Andy Seaborne: what worries me is the lack of things that calls it into question, are we charging in perfect harmony over the edge of a cliff? ←
17:28:44 <LeeF> It sounds to me like we need some explicit use case gathering here.
Lee Feigenbaum: It sounds to me like we need some explicit use case gathering here. ←
17:28:53 <AndyS> q+ to mention other approaches
Andy Seaborne: q+ to mention other approaches ←
17:29:13 <LeeF> Note that http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Update#Use_cases is empty
Lee Feigenbaum: Note that http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Update#Use_cases is empty ←
17:29:24 <KjetilK> ... we should not jump directly to the solution
... we should not jump directly to the solution ←
17:30:48 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:30:58 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
17:31:18 <pgearon> +1 for changesets
Paul Gearon: +1 for changesets ←
17:31:21 <KjetilK> AndyS: timbl and talis have the notion of changesets, which is a bunch of things to remove and things to add
Andy Seaborne: timbl and talis have the notion of changesets, which is a bunch of things to remove and things to add ←
17:31:32 <pgearon> +q slight issue with changesets
Paul Gearon: +q slight issue with changesets ←
17:32:06 <pgearon> q+ to note a slight issue with changesets
Paul Gearon: q+ to note a slight issue with changesets ←
17:32:19 <ericP> q+ to suggest that principle motivations for bare-bones HTTP verbs would be for caching and safety
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to suggest that principle motivations for bare-bones HTTP verbs would be for caching and safety ←
17:32:20 <KjetilK> ... with a pattern you can change a lot with only few characters, changesets are deltas
... with a pattern you can change a lot with only few characters, changesets are deltas ←
17:32:25 <AxelPolleres> paul, you have to type "q+ to ..."
Axel Polleres: paul, you have to type "q+ to ..." ←
17:33:07 <AxelPolleres> does anybody have a link to changesets?
Axel Polleres: does anybody have a link to changesets? ←
17:33:27 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Diff type of thing
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Diff type of thing ←
17:33:36 <LeeF> (I imagine, don't have a link for how we do it in Anzo)
Lee Feigenbaum: (I imagine, don't have a link for how we do it in Anzo) ←
17:33:43 <SimonS> http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame2/system/ch08.html
Simon Schenk: http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame2/system/ch08.html ←
17:34:00 <KjetilK> SimonS: it would be nice to have it update capability in the protocol _and_ a language
Simon Schenk: it would be nice to have it update capability in the protocol _and_ a language ←
17:34:52 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about whether this is RDF/update rather than SPARQL/update
Axel Polleres: q+ to ask about whether this is RDF/update rather than SPARQL/update ←
17:35:07 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
17:35:07 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to mention other approaches
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to mention other approaches ←
17:35:08 <AxelPolleres> ack AndyS
Axel Polleres: ack AndyS ←
17:35:12 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
17:35:30 <SimonS> DAV
Simon Schenk: DAV ←
17:35:55 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: Virtuoso does WebDAV
Lee Feigenbaum: Virtuoso does WebDAV [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
17:36:01 <KjetilK> SteveH: has anyone done WebDAV?
Steve Harris: has anyone done WebDAV? ←
17:36:06 <AlexPassant> http://docs.openlinksw.com/virtuoso/rdfinsertmethods.html#rdfinsertmethodwebdav
Alex Passant: http://docs.openlinksw.com/virtuoso/rdfinsertmethods.html#rdfinsertmethodwebdav ←
17:36:24 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:36:35 <LeeF> ack ericP
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ericP ←
17:36:35 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to suggest that principle motivations for bare-bones HTTP verbs would be for caching and safety
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to suggest that principle motivations for bare-bones HTTP verbs would be for caching and safety ←
17:37:55 <AxelPolleres> ericP: HTTP directives solution nice for caching and safety?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: HTTP directives solution nice for caching and safety? [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
17:38:23 <KjetilK> SteveH: there is also the curl command line to easily do updates
Steve Harris: there is also the curl command line to easily do updates ←
17:39:18 <KjetilK> ... curl can simply PUT a file on your disc
... curl can simply PUT a file on your disc ←
17:39:18 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:40:36 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
17:40:36 <Zakim> pgearon, you wanted to note a slight issue with changesets
Zakim IRC Bot: pgearon, you wanted to note a slight issue with changesets ←
17:40:38 <AxelPolleres> ack pgearon
Axel Polleres: ack pgearon ←
17:40:40 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
17:40:40 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about whether this is RDF/update rather than SPARQL/update
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about whether this is RDF/update rather than SPARQL/update ←
17:41:27 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: would this lightweight HTTP solution be SPARQL/Update?
Axel Polleres: would this lightweight HTTP solution be SPARQL/Update? ←
17:41:47 <KjetilK> SteveH: it would be in the protocol
Steve Harris: it would be in the protocol ←
17:42:55 <AxelPolleres> discussion whether LOAD data is standard in SQL
Axel Polleres: discussion whether LOAD data is standard in SQL ←
17:45:39 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:46:47 <KjetilK> +1 on both
+1 on both ←
17:47:02 <pgearon> +1 on both
Paul Gearon: +1 on both ←
17:49:19 <AxelPolleres> second attempt to collect issues:
Axel Polleres: second attempt to collect issues: ←
17:49:21 <AxelPolleres> * minimal (delete, insert triples only, HTTP protocol) vs fully-fledged solution: PUT/DELETE only? vs. data manipulation language, DAV to SPARQL/Update
Axel Polleres: * minimal (delete, insert triples only, HTTP protocol) vs fully-fledged solution: PUT/DELETE only? vs. data manipulation language, DAV to SPARQL/Update ←
17:49:21 <AxelPolleres> * concurrency issues?
Axel Polleres: * concurrency issues? ←
17:49:21 <AxelPolleres> * securtity mechanisms
Axel Polleres: * securtity mechanisms ←
17:49:21 <AxelPolleres> * empty graphs vs. quad-stores
Axel Polleres: * empty graphs vs. quad-stores ←
17:49:21 <AxelPolleres> * more update operations?
Axel Polleres: * more update operations? ←
17:49:23 <AxelPolleres> * protocol issue? HTTP PUT/POST, SOAP?
Axel Polleres: * protocol issue? HTTP PUT/POST, SOAP? ←
17:49:25 <AxelPolleres> * content negotiation/switch for mediatype?
Axel Polleres: * content negotiation/switch for mediatype? ←
17:49:27 <AxelPolleres> * issue: MODIFY deletes and inserts all graphs?
Axel Polleres: * issue: MODIFY deletes and inserts all graphs? ←
17:49:29 <AxelPolleres> * move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to)
Axel Polleres: * move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ←
17:49:31 <AxelPolleres> * dynamic graph (variable) for graph to update/modify
Axel Polleres: * dynamic graph (variable) for graph to update/modify ←
17:49:34 <AxelPolleres> * conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions
Axel Polleres: * conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions ←
17:49:35 <AxelPolleres> * subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity
Axel Polleres: * subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity ←
17:51:55 <KjetilK> LeeF: points back to his post about who put Update on the top
Lee Feigenbaum: points back to his post about who put Update on the top ←
17:52:09 <KjetilK> ...can those come up with use cases?
...can those come up with use cases? ←
17:52:25 <KjetilK> ericP: one use case is Tabulator
Eric Prud'hommeaux: one use case is Tabulator ←
17:52:47 <KjetilK> ...the other is that people were asking about it and I said "RSN"
...the other is that people were asking about it and I said "RSN" ←
17:53:52 <KjetilK> LukeWM: we implemented it to edit FOAF files
Luke Wilson-Mawer: we implemented it to edit FOAF files ←
17:54:27 <AxelPolleres> we shall collect these use cases for update, ... in F&R?
Axel Polleres: we shall collect these use cases for update, ... in F&R? ←
17:54:44 <AlexPassant> AxelPolleres: +1
Axel Polleres: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Alex Passant ] ←
17:54:50 <KjetilK> ...this takes advantage of patterns
...this takes advantage of patterns ←
17:55:33 <AxelPolleres> SteveH: does our use case need Modufy/update or only deletes an inserts?
Steve Harris: does our use case need Modufy/update or only deletes an inserts? [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
17:55:40 <KjetilK> q+ uses it too
q+ uses it too ←
17:55:49 <KjetilK> q+ to say we use it too
q+ to say we use it too ←
17:56:08 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
17:57:18 <AlexPassant> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySourcesRDForms
Alex Passant: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySourcesRDForms ←
17:57:32 <KjetilK> AlexPassant: we have a web2.0 app where people edit their data
Alex Passant: we have a web2.0 app where people edit their data ←
17:58:01 <KjetilK> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySourcesRDForms
http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySourcesRDForms ←
17:59:13 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Alexandre to ask in DERI about whether RDF Forms/pushback uses WHERE in updates
ACTION: Alexandre to ask in DERI about whether RDF Forms/pushback uses WHERE in updates ←
17:59:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Ask in DERI about whether RDF Forms/pushback uses WHERE in updates [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-27 - Ask in DERI about whether RDF Forms/pushback uses WHERE in updates [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-05-14]. ←
17:59:53 <KjetilK> pgearon: we use it all the time
Paul Gearon: we use it all the time ←
18:00:12 <AxelPolleres> AlexPAssant mentioned 3 use cases.
Axel Polleres: AlexPAssant mentioned 3 use cases. ←
18:00:34 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
18:00:54 <AlexPassant> 1st one: integration of remote sources in a store (graph update only), 2nd personal data management (graph only afair - have to check) 3rd one: RDForms
Alex Passant: 1st one: integration of remote sources in a store (graph update only), 2nd personal data management (graph only afair - have to check) 3rd one: RDForms ←
18:00:54 <KjetilK> ack me
ack me ←
18:00:54 <Zakim> KjetilK, you wanted to say we use it too
Zakim IRC Bot: KjetilK, you wanted to say we use it too ←
18:01:21 <AxelPolleres> paul: update of blanknodes neesds WHERE, becasue I can't reference them directly
Paul Gearon: update of blanknodes neesds WHERE, becasue I can't reference them directly [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
18:01:54 <AxelPolleres> kjetil, can you summarize your use case on IRC yourself
Axel Polleres: kjetil, can you summarize your use case on IRC yourself ←
18:02:48 <AxelPolleres> q+ on interplay between update and entailment, relevant for us?
Axel Polleres: q+ on interplay between update and entailment, relevant for us? ←
18:03:09 <KjetilK> KjetilK: we have applications where we use all features of SPARUL
Kjetil Kjernsmo: we have applications where we use all features of SPARUL ←
18:03:40 <KjetilK> ...not a lot of CLEAR GRAPHs, if we need that we usually do it on the command line
...not a lot of CLEAR GRAPHs, if we need that we usually do it on the command line ←
18:04:10 <KjetilK> ...we have an interface where people enter data about resources with certain properties,
...we have an interface where people enter data about resources with certain properties, ←
18:04:49 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: main use case provide users what they are used to from SQL for stores
Andy Seaborne: main use case provide users what they are used to from SQL for stores [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
18:05:01 <KjetilK> ...of course if there is a new resource, we do INSERT DATA, but it is important to edit existing resources, and then WHERE becomes important
...of course if there is a new resource, we do INSERT DATA, but it is important to edit existing resources, and then WHERE becomes important ←
18:05:32 <LeeF> q+ to ask how long SPARQL Update submission has been 'in the wild'
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to ask how long SPARQL Update submission has been 'in the wild' ←
18:05:41 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:06:06 <LukeWM> q+
Luke Wilson-Mawer: q+ ←
18:06:36 <KjetilK> ...I suppose it would be OK to have a HTTP DELETE to delete a graph instead of a CLEAR GRAPH, but now we do not use dereferencable URIs for graphs, since we haven't needed to do it, thus it would be harder to work with
...I suppose it would be OK to have a HTTP DELETE to delete a graph instead of a CLEAR GRAPH, but now we do not use dereferencable URIs for graphs, since we haven't needed to do it, thus it would be harder to work with ←
18:06:55 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
18:06:55 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on interplay between update and entailment, relevant for us?
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on interplay between update and entailment, relevant for us? ←
18:07:21 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: do we need to consider it in connection with entailment regimes?
Axel Polleres: do we need to consider it in connection with entailment regimes? ←
18:07:46 <ericP> delete them harder?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: delete them harder? ←
18:07:56 <KjetilK> AndyS: yeah, the case is "I've deleted my triples, but they are still there!"
Andy Seaborne: yeah, the case is "I've deleted my triples, but they are still there!" ←
18:08:01 <LeeF> DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s rdf:type owl:Thing } --> remove everything!
Lee Feigenbaum: DELETE FROM <g> WHERE { ?s rdf:type owl:Thing } --> remove everything! ←
18:08:17 <AndyS> Not classes.
Andy Seaborne: Not classes. ←
18:08:24 <LeeF> oh dang, yeah
Lee Feigenbaum: oh dang, yeah ←
18:08:32 <LeeF> rdfs:Resource ?
Lee Feigenbaum: rdfs:Resource ? ←
18:08:37 <AndyS> Or axiomatic triples.
Andy Seaborne: Or axiomatic triples. ←
18:08:56 <AndyS> rdf:type rdf:type rdf:Property.
Andy Seaborne: rdf:type rdf:type rdf:Property. ←
18:09:09 <LeeF> nothing i can do to make that no longer exist? :)
Lee Feigenbaum: nothing i can do to make that no longer exist? :) ←
18:09:54 <KjetilK> AndyS: what is the state-of-the-art with OWL?
Andy Seaborne: what is the state-of-the-art with OWL? ←
18:10:12 <AxelPolleres> Birte: update implies do inference from scratch, typically.
Birte Glimm: update implies do inference from scratch, typically. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
18:10:13 <AndyS> Not as far as I know. MT has some other axiomatic triples.
Andy Seaborne: Not as far as I know. MT has some other axiomatic triples. ←
18:10:28 <KjetilK> bglimm: basically, you start with scratch, take what you have and do inference from scratch
Birte Glimm: basically, you start with scratch, take what you have and do inference from scratch ←
18:11:23 <KjetilK> bglimm: it is an active research area, but it is not clear how it should be done
Birte Glimm: it is an active research area, but it is not clear how it should be done ←
18:12:03 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:12:07 <LeeF> ack me
Lee Feigenbaum: ack me ←
18:12:07 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask how long SPARQL Update submission has been 'in the wild'
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to ask how long SPARQL Update submission has been 'in the wild' ←
18:12:19 <LukeWM> ack me
Luke Wilson-Mawer: ack me ←
18:12:49 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFINTERP : blue table
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFINTERP : blue table ←
18:13:09 <KjetilK> LeeF: how long has SPARUL been in the wild?
Lee Feigenbaum: how long has SPARUL been in the wild? ←
18:13:50 <KjetilK> AndyS: there is one dated March 2007
Andy Seaborne: there is one dated March 2007 ←
18:14:29 <AndyS> Earlier than http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update-v1.html
Andy Seaborne: Earlier than http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update-v1.html ←
18:14:39 <KjetilK> pgearon: it, or something like it has been in use for a while now
Paul Gearon: it, or something like it has been in use for a while now ←
18:15:12 <KjetilK> SteveH: SPARUL is technically older than SPARQL :-)
Steve Harris: SPARUL is technically older than SPARQL :-) ←
18:15:29 <LeeF> technical difficulties
Lee Feigenbaum: technical difficulties ←
18:16:31 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
18:18:11 <KjetilK> AndyS: ivanh was also pretty clear it should be a submission
Andy Seaborne: ivanh was also pretty clear it should be a submission ←
18:18:53 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:18:53 <KjetilK> LeeF: it has a lot of support and is being used, but can we make a good recommendation of this?
Lee Feigenbaum: it has a lot of support and is being used, but can we make a good recommendation of this? ←
18:18:57 <iv_an_ru> SPARUL is worth and interoperable so the more "official" it is the better :)
Ivan Mikhailov: SPARUL is worth and interoperable so the more "official" it is the better :) ←
18:19:36 <AxelPolleres> q+
Axel Polleres: q+ ←
18:19:50 <KjetilK> AndyS: is there any way we can ping the community and get use cases?
Andy Seaborne: is there any way we can ping the community and get use cases? ←
18:19:54 <AxelPolleres> q+ to speak about our use cases
Axel Polleres: q+ to speak about our use cases ←
18:21:13 <KjetilK> LeeF: I think that we should do the more complex stuff and let the community do the simpler stuff
Lee Feigenbaum: I think that we should do the more complex stuff and let the community do the simpler stuff ←
18:21:29 <LeeF> yesterday's word: megillah ~ today's word: kerfuffle
Lee Feigenbaum: yesterday's word: megillah ~ today's word: kerfuffle ←
18:22:08 <KjetilK> AxelPolleres: the SPARUL use cases should go into the F&R
Axel Polleres: the SPARUL use cases should go into the F&R ←
18:22:13 <LukeWM> +1 to writing use cases down
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 to writing use cases down ←
18:22:53 <KjetilK> AndyS: if we had a RESTy solution, would we get away with that?
Andy Seaborne: if we had a RESTy solution, would we get away with that? ←
18:25:20 <KjetilK> ericP:
18:25:34 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:25:46 <AxelPolleres> ack AxelPolleres
Axel Polleres: ack AxelPolleres ←
18:25:46 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to speak about our use cases
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to speak about our use cases ←
18:26:13 <KjetilK> ericP: how about we very early in the new charter publish a WD of SPARUL to bring out comments
Eric Prud'hommeaux: how about we very early in the new charter publish a WD of SPARUL to bring out comments ←
18:26:13 <LeeF> let's give actions out! woo!
Lee Feigenbaum: let's give actions out! woo! ←
18:26:50 <LeeF> ACTION: eric to provide tabulator update use case on wiki
ACTION: eric to provide tabulator update use case on wiki ←
18:26:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Provide tabulator update use case on wiki [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-28 - Provide tabulator update use case on wiki [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-05-14]. ←
18:27:04 <LeeF> ACTION: Luke to provide FOAF update use case on wiki
ACTION: Luke to provide FOAF update use case on wiki ←
18:27:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Provide FOAF update use case on wiki [on Luke Wilson-Mawer - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-29 - Provide FOAF update use case on wiki [on Luke Wilson-Mawer - due 2009-05-14]. ←
18:27:17 <LeeF> ACTION: Alex to provide 3 uses cases on wiki
ACTION: Alex to provide 3 uses cases on wiki ←
18:27:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Provide 3 uses cases on wiki [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-30 - Provide 3 uses cases on wiki [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-05-14]. ←
18:27:26 <LeeF> ACTION-30: err, update use cases
Lee Feigenbaum: ACTION-30: err, update use cases ←
18:27:26 <trackbot> ACTION-30 Provide 3 uses cases on wiki notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-30 Provide 3 uses cases on wiki notes added ←
18:28:05 <LeeF> ACTION: Paul to provide delete construct / insert construct based on blank nodes use case on wiki
ACTION: Paul to provide delete construct / insert construct based on blank nodes use case on wiki ←
18:28:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Provide delete construct / insert construct based on blank nodes use case on wiki [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-05-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-31 - Provide delete construct / insert construct based on blank nodes use case on wiki [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-05-14]. ←
18:29:13 <AxelPolleres> q?
Axel Polleres: q? ←
18:30:01 <AxelPolleres> * minimal (delete, insert triples only, HTTP protocol) vs fully-fledged solution: PUT/DELETE only? vs. data manipulation language, DAV to SPARQL/Update
Axel Polleres: * minimal (delete, insert triples only, HTTP protocol) vs fully-fledged solution: PUT/DELETE only? vs. data manipulation language, DAV to SPARQL/Update ←
18:30:01 <AxelPolleres> * concurrency issues?
Axel Polleres: * concurrency issues? ←
18:30:01 <AxelPolleres> * securtity mechanisms
Axel Polleres: * securtity mechanisms ←
18:30:01 <AxelPolleres> * empty graphs vs. quad-stores
Axel Polleres: * empty graphs vs. quad-stores ←
18:30:01 <AxelPolleres> * more update operations?
Axel Polleres: * more update operations? ←
18:30:03 <AxelPolleres> * protocol issue? HTTP PUT/POST, SOAP?
Axel Polleres: * protocol issue? HTTP PUT/POST, SOAP? ←
18:30:05 <AxelPolleres> * content negotiation/switch for mediatype?
Axel Polleres: * content negotiation/switch for mediatype? ←
18:30:07 <AxelPolleres> * issue: MODIFY deletes and inserts all graphs?
Axel Polleres: * issue: MODIFY deletes and inserts all graphs? ←
18:30:09 <AxelPolleres> * move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to)
Axel Polleres: * move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ←
18:30:11 <AxelPolleres> * dynamic graph (variable) for graph to update/modify
Axel Polleres: * dynamic graph (variable) for graph to update/modify ←
18:30:13 <AxelPolleres> * conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions
Axel Polleres: * conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions ←
18:30:15 <AxelPolleres> * subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity
Axel Polleres: * subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity ←
18:30:18 <AxelPolleres> * what can be cut of from SPARQL/Update submission basis?
Axel Polleres: * what can be cut of from SPARQL/Update submission basis? ←
18:30:22 <AxelPolleres> * entailment vs. update?
Axel Polleres: * entailment vs. update? ←
18:31:50 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: minimal vs fully-fledged update language
ISSUE: minimal vs fully-fledged update language ←
18:31:51 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-17 - Minimal vs fully-fledged update language ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/17/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-17 - Minimal vs fully-fledged update language ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/17/edit . ←
18:32:29 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: cuncurrency in SPARQL/update
ISSUE: cuncurrency in SPARQL/update ←
18:32:29 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-18 - Cuncurrency in SPARQL/update ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/18/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-18 - Cuncurrency in SPARQL/update ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/18/edit . ←
18:32:34 <AlexPassant> Use-cases for Update to be recorded on the Wiki using http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:UpdateUseCases
Alex Passant: Use-cases for Update to be recorded on the Wiki using http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Category:UpdateUseCases ←
18:33:01 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: security issues on SPARQL/UPdate
ISSUE: security issues on SPARQL/UPdate ←
18:33:01 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-19 - Security issues on SPARQL/UPdate ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/19/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-19 - Security issues on SPARQL/UPdate ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/19/edit . ←
18:34:31 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: graphs aware stores vs. quad stores for SPARQL/update (empty graphs)
ISSUE: graphs aware stores vs. quad stores for SPARQL/update (empty graphs) ←
18:34:31 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-20 - Graphs aware stores vs. quad stores for SPARQL/update (empty graphs) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/20/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-20 - Graphs aware stores vs. quad stores for SPARQL/update (empty graphs) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/20/edit . ←
18:36:29 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: more complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects
ISSUE: more complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects ←
18:36:30 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-21 - More complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/21/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-21 - More complex update operations, e.g. CHANGE objects ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/21/edit . ←
18:37:02 <pgearon> +1 for not supporting SOAP
Paul Gearon: +1 for not supporting SOAP ←
18:37:34 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: support of SOAP in SPARQL/Update
ISSUE: support of SOAP in SPARQL/Update ←
18:37:34 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-22 - Support of SOAP in SPARQL/Update ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/22/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-22 - Support of SOAP in SPARQL/Update ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/22/edit . ←
18:38:03 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
18:38:26 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
18:39:19 <AxelPolleres> q+ to claim WSDL is useful :-)
Axel Polleres: q+ to claim WSDL is useful :-) ←
18:41:51 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AxelPolleres ←
18:41:51 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to claim WSDL is useful :-)
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to claim WSDL is useful :-) ←
18:42:04 <AxelPolleres> SteveH/Andy: WSDL2HTTP doesn't really make life easier
Axel Polleres: SteveH/Andy: WSDL2HTTP doesn't really make life easier ←
18:43:13 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: content negotiation/switch for mediatype
ISSUE: content negotiation/switch for mediatype ←
18:43:13 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-23 - Content negotiation/switch for mediatype ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/23/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-23 - Content negotiation/switch for mediatype ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/23/edit . ←
18:43:54 <AxelPolleres> move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to)
Axel Polleres: move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ←
18:43:58 <pgearon> "ferfufle"? Is that like a "kerfuffle"?
Paul Gearon: "ferfufle"? Is that like a "kerfuffle"? ←
18:43:59 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to)
ISSUE: move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ←
18:43:59 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-24 - Move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/24/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-24 - Move data between graphs (select on one graph and insert into another... copy from/to) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/24/edit . ←
18:44:37 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify
ISSUE: dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify ←
18:44:37 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-25 - Dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/25/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-25 - Dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/25/edit . ←
18:44:53 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions
ISSUE: conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions ←
18:44:53 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-26 - Conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/26/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-26 - Conjunction of operation vs atomocity, transactions ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/26/edit . ←
18:44:59 <LeeF> ISSUE-25: pgearon describes this issue as "fraught"
Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-25: pgearon describes this issue as "fraught" ←
18:44:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 Dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-25 Dynamic graph (variable) for INTO graph to update/modify notes added ←
18:45:05 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity
ISSUE: subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity ←
18:45:05 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-27 - Subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/27/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-27 - Subqueries in Update operations, full expressivity ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/27/edit . ←
18:45:26 <LeeF> q+ to say a word about all these issues in general
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to say a word about all these issues in general ←
18:45:47 <AxelPolleres> ISSUE: entailment regimes vs. update?
ISSUE: entailment regimes vs. update? ←
18:45:47 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-28 - Entailment regimes vs. update? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/28/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-28 - Entailment regimes vs. update? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/28/edit . ←
18:45:53 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
18:47:36 <KjetilK> Topic: wrap-up
18:47:14 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: we should be aggressive on resolving ISSUES to progress
Lee Feigenbaum: we should be aggressive on resolving ISSUES to progress [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
18:48:31 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: If people suggeste resolutions and nobody speaks up, we should go ahead and resolve issues. Suggest resolutions!
Lee Feigenbaum: If people suggeste resolutions and nobody speaks up, we should go ahead and resolve issues. Suggest resolutions! [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
18:48:43 <LeeF> ack me
Lee Feigenbaum: ack me ←
18:48:43 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to say a word about all these issues in general
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to say a word about all these issues in general ←
18:52:31 <AxelPolleres> LeeF: draft charter based on first internal draft of F&R
Lee Feigenbaum: draft charter based on first internal draft of F&R [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
18:52:47 <KjetilK> internal?
internal? ←
18:58:14 <AxelPolleres> feedback on the two-site approach very positive.
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Axel Polleres: feedback on the two-site approach very positive. ←
19:00:09 <AxelPolleres> people from west coase couldn't participate.
Axel Polleres: people from west coase couldn't participate. ←
19:00:22 <AxelPolleres> AndyS: task forces would be an interesting idea.
Andy Seaborne: task forces would be an interesting idea. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
19:00:37 <LeeF> +1 to trying task forces out
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 to trying task forces out ←
19:00:44 <AxelPolleres> ... for parallelizable tasks. Telecons rather for coodrination
Axel Polleres: ... for parallelizable tasks. Telecons rather for coodrination ←
19:02:07 <AxelPolleres> SemTech: Alex, Lee, Eric, Paul
Axel Polleres: SemTech: Alex, Lee, Eric, Paul ←
19:02:20 <AlexPassant> ivanh herman will also be there
Alex Passant: ivanh herman will also be there ←
19:02:48 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who is here? ←
19:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT262b
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see MIT262b ←
19:02:49 <Zakim> MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: MIT262b has pgearon, kasei, LeeF, ericP ←
19:02:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see SimonS, AxelPolleres, pgearon, AndyS, LeeF, KjetilK, kasei, LukeWM, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, karl, AlexPassant, john-l, KjetilK, trackbot, iv_an_ru, kjetil, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see SimonS, AxelPolleres, pgearon, AndyS, LeeF, KjetilK, kasei, LukeWM, SteveH, RRSAgent, Zakim, karl, AlexPassant, john-l, KjetilK, trackbot, iv_an_ru, kjetil, ericP ←
19:04:01 <LeeF> Regrest for Tuesday: Axel, Alex, Simon (at risk)
Lee Feigenbaum: Regrest for Tuesday: Axel, Alex, Simon (at risk) ←
<LeeF> Adjourned.
Lee Feigenbaum: Adjourned. ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2009-05-19 07:12:51 UTC by 'lfeigenb', comments: 'initial cleaned up version'