HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

03 Dec 2009

See also: IRC log


+1.408.307.aadd, +1.512.206.aabb, +1.650.862.aaaa, +49.693.650.5.aacc, AllanJ, Cooper, Geoff_Freed, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, John_Foliot, Jon_Gunderson, Joshue_O_Connor, Markku_Hakkinen, Martin_Kliehm, RichS, Stevef, dsinger
Aurélien_Levy, Cynthia_Shelly, Gez_Lemon, Kelly_Ford, Laura_Carlson, Maciej_Stachowiak, Stephane_Deschamps, Sylvia_Pfeiffer, Wendy_Chisholm, chaals




<trackbot> Date: 03 December 2009

<oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus

standing regrets for 1600h UTC thursdays: Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Sylvia_Pfeiffer

<eric_carlson> 408 is eric_carlson

the church of the subgenius

JS: cofacillitator from PFWG, MikeSmith facillitator from HTML WG, Michael Cooper staff contact for TF

Getting Acquainted

JS: goal: sense of what we should be working on through january and in what order

<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

<janina> agenda: this

JS: janina sajka
... please state name before speaking during first few meetings

<jongunderson> I was disconnected from the bridge twice

JS: there are a number of people who cannot join call

standing regrets for 1600h UTC thursdays: Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Sylvia_Pfeiffer

JS: wasn't time that worked for everybody - will take stock of meeting attendance weekly
... if need to adjust meeting date/time, can do, but will try thursdays at 1600h UTC

Participation & Expectations

JS: will introduce topics and open for discussion
... should expect that co-facillitators will rotate as far as chairing

<scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka

JS: participants primarily drawn from PF and HTML WGs but are own group
... establishing TF identity - not PF nor HTML, but HTML A11y Task Force
... co-facillitators and staff contact have had discussion - want to lay out what is expected of participants
... expect those here to be ACTIVE participants
... here to participate in decisions and discussions that will lead to HTML specs that adequately support a11y -- raison d'etre
... participate in telecons as able, through email, through wiki



JS: policy for TF re: good standing - based on participation
... co-facilliltators working on draft of good standing
... point is not to be bureaucratic, but efficient
... solutions-oriented work
... asked to create task force from PF - HTML WG agreed and offered to co-facillitate
... point: expedite accessibility issues, concerns, bugs, etc.
... brief statement about expectations on how TF members will conduct themselves; we are all professionals, so please conduct self with professionalism
... keep discussions and debates on the issues and specific technologies
... avoid personalities and focus on solutions and concrete suggestions

MS (MikeSmith)

MS: good summation

JS: quick thumbnail of good standing process
... will finish draft and send to html-a11y list for review and consensus at next thursday's meeting

MC (Michael Cooper)

MC: using W3C "good standing" process as closely to letter of W3C process as possible
... good standing = participation in some form at least once every 2 weeks
... number of channels TF uses
... email list, wiki,
... if not at telecon, reading/reviewing minutes
... important to keep all hands busy since fortunate enough to have such a large response
... if people aren't able to be active, will be marked as "not in good standing" -- effect: 1 marked as not in good standing, cannot make objection to decisions if not in good standing
... only participants in good standing can make decisions
... important to be in good standing in order to have voice in TF
... if conflicts arise, let the co-facillitators and staff contact know
... to restore good standing, all one need do is participate in TF fora

JS: questions?
... will conduct ourselves as the professionals we are
... TF evolving its own procedures; one aspect how to reach decisions
... can start with W3C consensus policies
... when not unanimous on specific approach, need to figure out how to reach decision of group in such cases; not simple majority voting, but what?
... think we can take time to figure out as TF members become more familiar with one another
... can develop own decision-making processes -- keep in mind, that it is an evolving process

HTML A11y Task Force Home Page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Main_Page

HTML A11y Task Force Work Statement: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force.html

JS: will make decisions in teleconferences as PFWG does; will NOT make major decisions -- those will be covered by email solicitations (24-48 hour "heartburn" check)

s/major decisions.../major decisions at teleconferences. at teleconferences.

JS: if participant has needs special needs (interpreters for deaf, for example) will make every attempt to support participation (interpreters, etc.) -- will be working on decisioning process, this telecon is part of that
... goal: to hear from all interested/affected parties

MS: important that TF members know how decision making policy vis a vis telecon recording resolutions and decisions

JS: questions? comments?

[none logged]

TF Subgroups (Canvas; Video; ...) Procedures Discussion

JS: adopting a sub-group that pre-exists A11y TF -- canvas sub-team led by RichS of IBM
... also adopting another group which is in process of organizing, which is sub-team dealing with media issues
... accessibility for multimedia on HTML5
... JohnF and DaveS did great presentation in advance of TPAC 2009
... expectations for sub-groups: you are on your own - can have own teleons (as canvas does)
... might be useful for media subgroup to have own list and teleconferences
... canvas already having own telecons

<dsinger_> We organized an informal meeting prior to Tpac, no presentation at Tpac

JS: might need to invite experts for particular discussions
... tracker - can add "products" pegged to topics
... for W3C process -- on wiki, have a minimal work statement for each sub-teacm for wiki -- this is what this sub-group is about and this is what its goals and timeline and work plan is

RS (RichS)

RS: most a11y people will be tied up until monday (publication of new ARIA draft)

JS: would like to get subgroup descriptions, etc on wiki by end of year

SF (Steve Faulkner)

SF: when decide about formation of sub-groups in addition to canvas and multimedia

<JF> Does Steve have an idea for another Sub Group?

JS: as prioritize issues, should shake out into a work plan -- may decide during review of issues to spawn supgroup if necessary

<Joshue> +q

JOC (Joshue O Connor)

JOC: if any groups that want me for any issue, please do because i have some open time right now

<Joshue> lol

Existing Issues Prioritization -- What? Who? When?

JS: facillitators and staff contact thought that ARIA-mapping may be one area
... what to do with @alt
... @summary
... brainstorm roadmap of what to attack when

GJR: need to ascertain what from HTML5 has been implemented

<inserted> ScribeNick: Joshue

GJR: One means of prioritising is that we need to know what parts of HTML are being implemented etc so we can anticipate any issues.

<JF> +1 GJR

GJR: Our work should be mapped to HTML in the wild

<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus

JS: used keywords in HTML5 bugzilla to identify accessiblity related issues - keyword: a11y


<Joshue> -q

<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that there are other implementations to consider other than just browsers

MS: agree with GJR's point about addressing issues vis a vis implementation of features in order to prioritize discussions for this group; not just browsers that are important -- conformance checkers - no conformance checker other than validator.nu
... one reason why we should try to make ARIA mappings a priority because waiting on validator.nu to get resolution on this so can change schema to align with consensus opinion on integration/mapping
... sooner we can get that done and forward to HTML WG for resolution as to what should appear in spec, can then get implementations that conform to consensus, feed info to validator.nu and then be able to use to check ARIA markup
... 2 bug reports this week about ARIA checking at validator.nu
... shows interest in ARIA and ARIA support

GJR: plus 1

MC: validators driven by schemata of various sorts -- preparing some on PF side -- may be orthagonal to core mission of A11y TF
... will have schemata available soon for validators -- issues beyond conformance checkers, MS?

MS: need to have an agreement upon what the exact integration of ARIA into HTML5 should be
... don't have agreement yet, becuase not completed discussion -- need documentation and verbiage that we agree upon
... what have now is hixie's take on what is appropriate
... what is at vallidator.nu is hixie's and some is based on HenriS' work
... would be good to have it standardized and agreed-upon
... need official "line" on ARIA integration - need more sense of urgency to get ARIA mapping finallized

SF: agree with MS' assessment -- been working on this with Cynthia Shelly; need input from other people; how lax or strict should it be? haven't yet come up with formula for determining laxity or strictness

<dsinger_> ud

SF: need to have some dedicated individuals to work on ARIA mappping

DS (Dave Singer)

DS: what is on topic for this group and what is not on topic for this group -- clarify impact on HTML5 spec; textual changes, material that will impact other W3C specifications

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to distinguish ARIA integration from ARIA mapping

MC: ARIA-integration - building ARIA into HTML5 spec
... ARIA-mapping - how ARIA features map to accessibility APIs and how HTML5 handles those APIs
... want to distinguish issues to avoid overlap and misunderstanding

SF: think we are talking about the same thing
... MS and i are talking about the same thing -- ARIA-mapping

JS: should we resume at this point next thursday (10 december 2009)
... any objection to ARIA-integration?

RS: other issues being addressed, make this priority

SF: there has been a change proposal submitted by me on @alt


SF: parts need work
... would like to have others to work on change proposal within and without A11y TF

JS: good procedural question: is it necessary to send to both public-html and public-html-a11y
... procedure is issues kicked our way, TF comes up with proposals, which are then submitted to HTML WG, which then through its processes decides if acceptable, also pass on to PFWG to ensure recommendations meet a11y needs under PFWG's purview
... don't deliver final wording - recommendations that -- if worded well -- can be adopted wholesale

MK: mapping doesn't end with ARIA

<dsinger_> I suggest that we ask ht

MK: new HTML5 elements not mapped to any a11y APIs -- need investigatino

SF: being looked at by the AAPI task force

<dsinger_> HTML wg to send non-consensus a11y questions to us and that we not cross post until we are done

JS: not the only joint task force
... AAPI been mostly PF participation so far
... start with ARIA, finalize alt proposal

Upcomming Meetings

next 2 months of thursdays at 1600h UTC - upcomming dates: 10 december 2009, 17 december 2009, 24 december 2009, 31 december 2009, 7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010

JS: canvas and aapi already working, can help facillitate organization for media accessibility -- may be separate telecon -- participation in any subgroup equals participation in the TF
... propose we skip last 2 thursdays of december


7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010

7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010

7 january 2010, 14 january 2010, 21 january 2010, 28 january 2010, 4 february 2010

<MikeSmith> sounds good to me

RESOLUTION: A11y TF will meet on 10 december 2009 (ARIA), 17 december 2009 (@alt) resume on 7 january 2010

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.512.206.aabb, John_Foliot, Cooper, Stevef, dsinger, +49.693.650.5.aacc, AllanJ, Martin_Kliehm, Janina, kliehm, +1.408.307.aadd
Present: +1.408.307.aadd +1.512.206.aabb +1.650.862.aaaa +49.693.650.5.aacc AllanJ Cooper Geoff_Freed Gregory_Rosmaita Janina John_Foliot Jon_Gunderson Joshue_O_Connor Markku_Hakkinen Martin_Kliehm RichS Stevef dsinger
Regrets: Aurélien_Levy Cynthia_Shelly Gez_Lemon Kelly_Ford Laura_Carlson Maciej_Stachowiak Stephane_Deschamps Sylvia_Pfeiffer Wendy_Chisholm chaals
Found Date: 03 Dec 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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