See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 02 December 2009
zakim where are u :-) ?
<yoshiaki> 7994 might be mine, yoshiaki
<rreck> not that i want to, but i cant scribe
<MacTed> I could easily be the worst scribe ever
<rreck> i thought its me
<rreck> pchampin: it might be you
ok i will
<hhalpin> scribe: AlexPassant
<hhalpin> scribenick: AlexPassant
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 25th November 2009 as a true record
hhalpin: minutes of last week
<rreck> pchampin: yeah its you
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 25th November 2009 as a true record
hhalpin: no objections
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Decemeber 9th
hhalpin: next week
<hhalpin> FOAF and FOAF+SSL and RDF for data integration over social nets...
<hhalpin> DanBri, can you make next week/
hhalpin: FOAF and FOAF+SSL and RDF for data integration on the Social Web
<hhalpin> Henry Story?
<bblfish> just a sec
hhalpin: will talk about FOAF
... ideally with portable contacts
<Adam> +1 Alex
hhalpin: user stories
tpa: Progress on user stories
<hhalpin> very nice!
tpa: changed the order of
... structure of the document
<bblfish> which user am I?
tpa: business model angle
... corporate contect (e.g. soc net in large compagny)
... featureS: linking people annotating, consuming
... structured in 10 parts, from an end-user perspective
... try to get a comprehensive view of the field
<hhalpin> +1 on presence management
<MacTed> *great* UseCases revision.
tpa: lots of changes in a week
<hhalpin> *Very* good work.
<cperey> zakim +1.617.848.aajj is me
tpa: help needed on some user
... to get them filled
... better direction for the document
<hhalpin> ack ??P26
I just handed up for zakim
<hhalpin> Are these no longer relevant?
<hhalpin> Happy to kill them...
hhalpin: what about actions on
the weekly agenda
... are they still required ?
<hhalpin> Do you want me to tell me which ones are still relevant?
tpa: some of them might be still
needed, some not
... have to go through
<cperey> you can close my action on business narrative from last week
hhalpin: can drop the older ones
tpa: corporate story still valid (adam)
<Adam> i am
tpa: business - done
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] cperey to take business narrative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
<danbri> re API/widget discussion, I met with Robin Berjon briefly last week, he's keen to come talk w/ us re DAP WG and related
<hhalpin> ACTION [DONE]: cperey to take business narrative
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] cperey to take business narrative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
tpa: let people listed on the old ones to decide themselves
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] adam to take on corporate story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<rreck> pchampin: thanks
tpa: some are still usable and needed
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] (2 weeks) adam to write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
tpa: use cases moved to section 4
... including APIs
... mostly tries to do a mapping
tpa: some ended up in multiple categories
cperey: fill-in description for
each of them
... went through the all section, feedback required
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance (rreck) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
cperey: is that a sufficient
level of detail at this time ?
... or is that too much ?
... needs review on the first section
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] oshani to reframe the geolocation/intent/portability (2 weeks) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
cperey: as it will drive the rest
of the work
... sectino on business models
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] bblfish to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you (2 weeks) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
cperey: is this the right place
for this content ?
... not sure that it needs to be there
... out of scope ?
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] bblfish to merge Family and Group access usecases (2 weeks) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
cperey: economic / revenue
belongs to this document ?
... business models seems odd where it is at the moment
<hhalpin> ACTION: (2 weeks) hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases (2 weeks) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - (2
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] (2 weeks) hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases (2 weeks) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
tpa: template at the top of the
... need description of corporate context and developer views
... tags to each story would make sense
... but bery good description
cperey: tpa can you do tags
... to avoid heterogeneity
<tpa> ACTION: tanglade to tag existing stories [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-114 - Tag existing stories [on Tim Anglade - due 2009-12-09].
cperey: better consistency if
only one / 2 people to the tags
... be consistent with the tags
tpa: original doc was called
reuirements and use-cases
... business part is more about requirements
... nice illustration of the user stories
... included some way in the final report
... as it matters , on a bigger extent
... site X uses this block and that one
... get a complete catalogue
tpa: nice illustration
hhalpin: buiness X wants to
... what are the requirements
... necessary for business but not for users
... more an argumentative / narrative
<rreck> you are dropping out hhalpin
<rreck> i can
<rreck> maybe it was just me
<hhalpin> This definitely needs some manpower, but keeping it short and sweet is great.
tpa: some are very straightforward stories
<Adam> yeah, i will have more time coming up
tpa: will work on it
<melvster> ill put some time in ...
tpa: like to get most of the
stories filled by next week
... then can concentrate on the narrative, tagging
<hhalpin> I'll give it a good review over Christmas...#
tpa: needs one or 2 people
hhalpin: invited guest agenda
danbri: updted on the widgets
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets (2 weeks) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action12]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin to try to get TimBL to either talk or write-up his use-cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/02-swxg-minutes.html#action13]
hhalpin: invited speaker
<chrismessina> morning all
hhalpin: Chris Messina on Activity Streams
<mischat> I will be able to time and effort into this tpa hhalpin
<danbri> action danbri set up a *oodle thing to pick a date for widget/apis telecon
<trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Set up a *oodle thing to pick a date for widget/apis telecon [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-12-09].
hhalpin: forwarded links about a
... let Chris introduce himself
... DISO, etc
chrismessina: interest in social
... for the last 5 yeasrs
chrismessina: worked on firefox marketing
chrismessina: introduction to the
power of social web / open source
... what a community was like
... started on Flock
... open source architect
<hhalpin> Links to most the projects are here:
chrismessina: fundamental vision:
browsers are for a web of documents, not for a web of
... make easier to enable interactions
... link all the social networks that one's part of
... time before google acq. youtube, etc.
... browser as the natural place to list people and friends
<hhalpin> a browser for myspace :)
chrismessina: left when the
browser idea changed
... microformats community
... let browsers support microformats
... involved in the openid community
<hhalpin> +1 flocks very useful when we in W3C were looking at microformats and RDF with GRDDL...
chrismessina: get oauth off the
... openid board member
... 2 years term
... involvement in the activity streams project
chrismessina: DISO project
... ... opensocial was not open nor social
... needded for open social network
... DISO came a framework for such Open SocNet
... will hopefully provide interoperrability building blocks for the social web
<hhalpin> ActivityStream Generator for Opera: http://dev.opera.com/libraries/activitystream/
started when seeing all streams, feeds, etc. on the web
... RSS and Atom as the data input to build the streams
... rich stream / how to understand it
... need more experssive formats than RSS / Atom
... researched what kind of activities / verbs were used
... extension to the Atom format
... transfor AtomXML to a JSON representation to be used in opensocial
... next opensocial version - much richers
filtering, merging, ...
... activities from several sources
... move opensocial activity streams
... verb URIs, JSON representation
... compatibility between different initiatives
... myspace is using it
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask re atom/json design
danbri: issues coming up to have
a JSON design
... noticed similar things on portablecontacts
... merging practices ?
... particular JSON / XML expressions
chrismessina: not a dev. but
understands (UI and design background)
... yet, biggest issue is to get the XML schema to JSON
<hhalpin> JSON issues with namespaces...
chrismessina: does not deal with namespaces properly
<hhalpin> This is a very interesting blog post:
<hhalpin> Death of the URL
expressive JSON activity stream API in opensocial
... not worrying to much on extensions
<bblfish> that's the main problem with JSON: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/the_limitations_of_json
chrismessina: issues also heard
from the PortableContact people
... some efforts needed
... 2 important things
<bblfish> what is needed is a JSON rdf format
<hhalpin> in RDF scene, there's still (hopefully) work done mapping RDF over to JSON is some standardized way...
chrismessina: straughtforward way
of expressing the activity mode
... + schema for expressing these things
... use the same URI to identify the different verbs
<hhalpin> verb proliferation....
<rreck> sounds like you could use a verb taxonomy
<hhalpin> Sounds like the owl:sameAs problem...
http://milanstankovic.org/opo-actions/specs/2009/OPO-Actions-20090501/ also related to the topic
<rreck> i would look at wordnet, and at Levin's verb book
<danbri> I liked http://groups.google.com/group/activity-streams/msg/3ecd9a340dbc730c
scribe: use the same terminology (challenge) but gives opportunity
<danbri> "As long as proper research and documentation is done, anyone can implement whatever verbs they want to; that's why they're URIs! "
<rreck> Levin's verb categories are in the public
<rreck> has he heard of Levin's verbs?
rreck: any reference for that ?
<rreck> yes one second
hhalpin: high adoption
<hhalpin> subject-verb-object model
hhalpin: and rapid one
<hhalpin> to me, very similar to RDF.
<hhalpin> yet because's Atom.
<rreck> Levin verb index -> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/levin.html
hhalpin: make think of RDF modeling (in terms of subjct-verb-object
<rreck> they are linked to the table of contents which "someone" needs to type in
hhalpin: any relationship between activity streams and RDF ?
hhalpin: activity schema
<rreck> i have typed that TOC in
<danbri> schema -> http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/activitystreams/activityschema
scribe: how do we keep track when adding more verbs
chrismessina: bridge efforts between different groups
<hhalpin> I admit I was surprised to see the adoption was so rapid, given the data model seems very similar to RDF.
chrismessina: different names to describe things
<hhalpin> Which has had historical issues with rapid adoption :)
chrismessina: more likely to go and implement their own version
<bblfish> on Atom and RDF, there is the Atom OWL ontology: http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html
chrismessina: looked at the
... extracted best practices
<bblfish> so it should be easy to add activity streams to the transform
chrismessina: turneed into a solution that everyone can adopt with minimal effort
<hhalpin> everyone was already using Atom feeds...
<hhalpin> Hmm...looks like a GRDDL for ActivityStreams could be in order.
facebook parse the feeds in a very specific way
... location service sharing
... goal was to look at what feeds publisher are doing
... what the actor / object are
... challenge: what the verb is
... update the feeds in a non-introsive way
... 10/15 minutes to get a feed
... if already publishing atom
... alignement is as lightweight as possible
... more pragmatic that data purist
... anyone that adapt the format is able to showcase the feed better than any competitor
... market place with a desire to solve that problem
... e.g. myspace wants to get activities from different sources
... plaxo, etc. all duplicating the work
... opportunity for standardization
... same as with openid
... relationship to the RDF triples
... in general the triple approach is very compelling
... you can convert in any format once you have the data
... start with something easy
... facebook and myspace and youtube onboard
... look at what can be done with the data in novel ways
hhalpin: close fit regarding data
... interesting would be to look at activity streams mappins
<rreck> you cant hear me
<rreck> ok you cant hear me
<pchampin> we can hear you
<danbri> (re rdf, some colleagues in the notube project did do an rdf mapping, and compare/contrast w/ rdf version of activity/event schemas)
bblfish: transform Atom into
... worked on the atom syntax spec
... spend some time to create an ontology for taht
... one key element that may have slow doen the RDF adoption inthat realm
... apart the tools not being there
... triples and metadata about the content itself
... need to distinguish what the content is about
... merge from different sources
<hhalpin> So there's some issues with regards lack of context/named graphs in rdf here.
whos speaking ?
<chrismessina> "a financial interest in verbs" ?
<hhalpin> yes, the man does have financial interest in verbs :)
rreck: where to find verbs
<danbri> ah, i heard financial too
rreck: categorisation of verbs,
broken into categories
... similar syntactially, etc.
<hhalpin> I mean, you know, people do get paid for computational linguistics.
<MacTed> SIOC helps handle this distinction -- between "document description" (i.e., file metadata) and "content description" (i.e., named entities used in text *within* the file)
rreck: wordnet is one of them
<MacTed> Container is the key element
rreck: will contact offline
chrismessina: posted a link to the activity streams process
<bblfish> so just to summarize what I was saying above: the content of an atom format is something that has to end up being mapped to a Graph. So before SPARQL was out and named graphs were well accepted in the semweb community, it was a bit diffiuclt to express this in RDF.
chrismessina: important thing:
... communication between one and other
<danbri> non-thinking entities --- companies or computers?
chrismessina: want to avoid
people inventing new verbs again and again
... wht types of activities are needed from a publisher point of view
... to communicate
<hhalpin> So, maybe one way to say it, the verbs we are interested are "domain-specific" to the social web.
chrismessina: interested in
getting a core set of verbs to begin with
... as anytime a new verb is added. lots of people are required to use them
... URIs for new verbs
... registries of verbs
... synonyms can be done later on
... very obvisou verbs of the social web
... as standards as possible
... and then grows from there
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask re TV viewing feed examples (xbmc/boxee etc)
chrismessina: starting with 40 verbs (approx.)
chrismessina: the one seen used on the web
<hhalpin> Ack, chrismessina beat me :)
<chrismessina> ;) sorry!
<petef> danbri have you seen http://testtubetelly.channel4.com/?
... took a lok at the verbs visible on a site
... evaluated the existing formats
... then take the verbs and the way they describe the activities
<petef> Test Tube Telly is a good use case for Activity Streams and TV.
chrismessina: a few classes of
... and mapped them with the existing
... few unknown verbs
chrismessina: work with the
community to see how you implement it is ok
... then implements
<rreck> does anyone else think SKOS when they read verb mapping?
chrismessina: create ver, document, implement, get feedback
<hhalpin> Yes, SKOS could be useful here,
<pchampin> +1 SKOS
danbri: disambiguation ?
<bblfish> ok, got to go to another conf call.
<rreck> i would love to show a interoperable approach for verb mapping using skos
<bblfish> but it would be useful to have the vocabulary of activity streams published as RDF linked data
-1 for skos for verbs (while the SKOS properties are useful)
<rreck> which of course would mean lots of this information is available out of the box
<bblfish> and have that mapped in such as a way that it can fit in with AtomOWL transform...
<danbri> examples of what comes out of boxee: http://twitter.com/bandriball
chrismessina: some can use
microformats, wikipedia page, etc.
... author, title and body content
... then enclosure, but pretty weak
... adding the actor of the post
<danbri> eg http://twitter.com/bandriball/status/5148136281
chrismessina: adding some
microformats in the content to parse the object and iunderstand
what it is
... great problem to address then
... but need to get the issue first
<Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a very basic question about cliqset
pchampin: cliqset: generate
activity streams from different sources
... to what extent do you get the correct verb from these sources ?
... feed reformating or getting information from the site using API ?
<pchampin> it *is* great :)
chrismessina: consume the feed
from the provider
... hope that richer amount of information will come from the sources
... more precise verbs that show up in the feed
... or richer object definition
... define tthe target of an activity
... e.g. adding flickr to a set in flickr
... tracking a photo album, etc.
... as opposed to follow each individual picture
<rreck> in my experience shame doesnt work
chrismessina: would like to get
buddypress adopt activiystreams
... open source PHP activity streams parser would be great
... convincing people to adopt it
<danbri> chrismessina, you're saying there's no good opensrc php consumer, yet?
<chrismessina> there is not
chrismessina: underlying code / libraries should accelerate the adoption
<danbri> ok, maybe i know a funded project that might help there ... (www.notube.tv) ... do you have a requirements spec?
<hhalpin> Sounds british :)
<hhalpin> Will note that...
chrismessina: other examples of formats for activities
<hhalpin> Well, just looking for other tech in the same space, but it's clear activitystreams seems to have the momentum...
chrismessina: none of them is moving forward interoperable standards
<danbri> also some discussion around xmpp community for activity streams over xmpp --- http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/social/2009-April/000536.html
chrismessina: shoudl be
interoperable, shoud be open
... role of W3C: valuable to provide spotlight on this work
... thinking about the role W3C plays in incubating things
... boards member of the OpenWeb fundation
... as it was hard to understand how W3C coudl bootstrap such grassroots projects
... take about 1.5 years / 2 years
... but becoming a defacto standard
... while working independantly from a standard body
<hhalpin> I think it's a great amount of success...
chrismessina: like to see other
similar efforts succeed as well
... based on the work theyre doing
<danbri> (+1 to all that)
chrismessina: interested in how this kind of work can be supported
hhalpin: would like to outline
some kind of plan
... should W3C provide infrastructure
... what are the pros and cons
... IP policies, etc.
... transition period, time for suggestions
... looking for suggestions
<chrismessina> linkedin's verbs: http://developer.linkedin.com/docs/DOC-1006
DKA: how W3C can help such efforts
<hhalpin> brainstorming about how to open up W3C and get relationships with all other foundations and standards bodies would be useful.
DKA: W3C key goal is to let the web open
<hhalpin> and what resources the W3C has to offer the wider community
<danbri> (mentioned http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ )
DKA: XG process started few years ago
<hhalpin> it's just kinda unclear what the wider community wants.
DKA: time for starting working on
... lots of XG now
<hhalpin> wider = everyone working to keep the web open
DKA: question shoud be how can W3C facilitate such efforts
chrismessina: DISO and activity
projects done on spare time
... did them as believe in Open Web
... find things to build better and richer solutions
... compagnies that have IP who decided that they come together to advance the set of things
... avoid to much fragmentation of a market
... Web is a more fluid place, subject to changes
... very essential to come up with patterns that are easy to adopt / use
... to drive interoperable standards
<danbri> it's more a w3c observation
chrismessina: bring new protocols
but make sure to ensure the openess
... standards bodies created solutions for large compagnies
<hhalpin> Good point re ramp for smaller projects
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to mention w3c process is in-scope
<hhalpin> we need some sort of relationship re smaller bodies.
<hhalpin> and now the massive amount of creativity which is in the grassroots
<hhalpin> (and then relationships with larger bodies like IETF)
<rreck> you broke up a little danbri
<cperey> getting late, guys
<cperey> we need to (cut the song short and) close this meeting!
<danbri> basically W3C can be what we make of it, ...
<hhalpin> we'll close after question from tpa
chrismessina: openess in an networked world
<hhalpin> but feel free to exist..
<hhalpin> free to exit.
chrismessina: W3C becomes an engie for interoperability of open technologies
<danbri> one of the issues re w3c membership model, is that it becomes hard to structure w3c so pressure is put on its members to play well w/ standards...
<danbri> (because they're supplying $)
tpa: efforts like openid and
oauth where supported by people working on the Web
... much more idealist process
... W3C has not doing that so far
... q on activity streams
... lots of discussion on publishing and having people on boards
<danbri> (re individuals vs employers, ... often people do have relevant employers, but it's the individual who is the driver, and the employer situation is often damage control, ie. making sure they behave well re patents)
tpa: but cannot find lot of applications
chrismessina: challenging in
terms of adoption
... motivate the consumer
... then producers
... chicken and egg problem
<hhalpin> I imagine Chrome will take it up...
chrismessina: windows live
... if you create a widget, it produces a stream
... friends are able to subscribe
... P2P process to the browsers
... larger publishers (youtube, NYT)
... more a timing issue
... once spec will be out, hope to see rapid adoption
... twitter introduced an important verb: to follow
... can follow people whatever client is used
<hhalpin> we dont' have any clear answers quite yet
<hhalpin> Chris Messina Prime
<rreck> thanks Chris
<chrismessina> thanks all!
<tpa> thanks :)
<DKA> +1 thanks Chris!
<Adam> we will be adding it to our existing activity streams
<Adam> inside Boeing
<hhalpin> Meeting Adjourned.
<rreck> bye all
<tpa> AlexPassant:, hhalpin there were some typos / misunderstanding in the writeup of my last comment
<tpa> How should I propose edits to that :)
<hhalpin> tpa, just rewrite the comment here
<hhalpin> and i'll fix it when I clean up the meeting.
<tpa> tpa: efforts like openid and oauth where supported by people working on the Web but not necessarily in the right field so they tend to participate as individuals. W3C should probably have a clear policy of allowing individuals to join to attract the same kind of crowd and efforts
<hhalpin> we should have a telecon on W3C process and W3C role once we have some strawman proposals.
<tpa> tpa: also, have a more iterative process, like those groups, which historically the W3C has not been good at.
<tpa> hhalpin: yes, that'd be great
<tpa> I think there are some clear point to report back on
<tpa> but we're so in the middle of them, we don't necessarily see them
<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
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