XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

11 Nov 2009


See also: IRC log


Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, Tina, Alessio, McCarron, ShaneM




<trackbot> Date: 11 November 2009

<Tina> Steven: then I've not ... bah. Be right there.

agenda request - XHTML Role and ARIA and extension of roles in aria and expansion of pre-defined roles, in particular "form"

using the web based IRC client, so not very feedback

addition of the term "form" as a predefined role for the XHTML2 Role Module: XHTML2 WG ISSUE-5: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/issues/5

<ShaneM> low tech crap

shane's proposal in email archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Apr/0055.html

<Steven> My phone died

<ShaneM> we got your voice mail. lol

<ShaneM> again

best thing about the cold is you can always get warmer, can only do so much oneself to cool

XHTML Role agenda addendum

1. extensibility and ARIA

2. expansion of predefined role (in particular, "form")

3. exact relationship between ARIA and XHTML Role (ARIA LC Comments from XHTML2)

<ShaneM> its a conspriacy

<alessio> :D


<Steven> scribe: Steven

<inserted> ScribeNick: oedipus

SP: last week TPAC 2009 -- not very much to report -- relation to this WG, one HTML5 discussion on distributed extensibility - only discussed issues we knew about, no action items assigned - 2 sides expanding their positions without agreement on how to procede
... continuing stream of discussions we've been having at the last several TPACs -- disappointed at lack of traction

GJR: there is now a HTML5 - PF HTML5 Accessibility Task Force



<Tina> oedipus: noticed that. Disappointed.

DOM3 Events

SP: web content transformation needs to be reviewed -- by me
... now Oasis member - will keep WG updated
... emessage from Doug Schepers about changes to DOM3 events
... XML Events now uses DOM2 so not particularly germane

<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Oct/0016

SP: still anyone interested should review
... Forms WG is planning on taking XML Events 2 on board


SP: PERs - no progress
... sent email to Ralph & PLH to re-draw attention to requests

SM: cannot finish our work before end of term of WG

SP: needs thought and discussion - will fire up email to R & PLH to say we can't meet deadlines because of delay in feedback and a stopper in the process


<Steven> Scribe: Steven

Gregory: There are 3 issues
... first the ARIA extensibility, using @role
... we need to be more specific about extensibility
... we want to point to XHTML role

Steven: We need someone to take over role
... could you not do that?

Shane: I will do the work, but we need a WG

Gewgory: I am also working on the access module
... for HTML5

Shane: Manu in RDFa has created a way of making modules for HTML5

Gregory: Can you send me a pointer?

Steven: Would the WAI group take role over?

Gregory: PF meets at 12
... if ARIA follows role extensibility, we would need to be able to point to it

Steven: Either copy the content or take over the role spec

<ShaneM> Role can refer to the CURIE definition in RDFa - it is normative and already a rec

<scribe> ACTION: Gregory to ask WAI PF if they want to take on the role spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Ask WAI PF if they want to take on the role spec [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-11-18].

Gergory: This helps is with the third point
... the last issue I have, on predefined roles, can be answered later
... I see value in having a role module
... I want role to be a real module so that it isn't just seen as an accessibility hook
... it can help with loads of other things

<ShaneM> I wonder if it makes sense to define role-related extensions to rdfa?



<oedipus> scribenick: oedipus

SP: have a draft - thanks to shane for completing latest draft
... what do we as WG need to do to publish as final note, shane?

SM: [ponders] - aside from changing text to say "Note", also need to change Status section
... no technical work needed for Note

SP: list of open issues - keep them or dispose of them through pass-off? change status to say work will continue elsewhere?

SM: does W3C know that

SP: told them

SM: what to put in status section

SP: if note, prefer to dispose of issues first

SM: we can do that

<ShaneM> Wouldn't publish with the issues embedded.

proposed resolution: XHTML 2 will be a Note; Status of Document to change to reflect that work will continue elsewhere


"Implementors should be aware that this specification is not stable. Implementors who are not taking part in the discussions are likely to find the specification changing out from under them in incompatible ways. Vendors interested in implementing this specification before it eventually reaches the Candidate Recommendation stage should join the aforementioned mailing lists and take part in the discussions."

RESOLUTION: XHTML2 will be a W3C Note; accordingly the Status of this Document section will be updated to reflect change


"Optimally, one would want to use a character entity code to indicate a TAB or multiple TABs, as some programming languages use TAB delineation, and the purpose of CODE and BLOCKCODE is to ENSURE that any user can copy and paste the sample of CODE, with whitespaces and explicitly declared TABs preserved."

PROPOSED 2: That the definition of CODE and BLOCKCODE be amended to indicate that whitespace, line breaks, and other "layout" compenents contained within CODE or BLOCKCODE is intended to be preserved, and that all current references to the PRE element be removed. An authoring tool could very easily translate individual spaces and other dilimeters (such as TAB) into the UTF-8 codes for a non-breaking whitespace and/or a TAB or TABs. This is also a strategy whi

SP: haven't heard what real damage pre does that anything else would solve?
... in favor of people being able to work with XHTML2 - PRE syntaxtic sugar, but familiar

GJR: for code and programming samples, should use CODE or BLOCKCODE

SP: taking PRE away will not cause solution to happen - nothing in replacement for PRE which will change current usage patterns

treat PRE in XHTML2 the way that blockquote for style was treated in HTML 4.01 -- deprecated for indentation purposes

SP: PRE as generic container can be ill used, but if take away people will use P with layout attribute

AC: agree

GJR: understood

SP: agree that PRE has problem being rendered by assistive tech, but eliminating PRE won't solve the problem GJR pointed out
... not in favor of taking out PRE

GJR: we currently have PRE, CODE, BLOCKCODE, and SAMP

SP: SAMP is inline

GJR: will port issue to further work on XHTML2 when that work is consumated

<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to produce a note version of XHTML 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Produce a note version of XHTML 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-11-18].

SM: anyone with earthshattering changes to XHTML2 as currently defined in the draft are requested to email shane and the list before change to note

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Gregory to ask WAI PF if they want to take on the role spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Shane to produce a note version of XHTML 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/11/11 15:38:56 $

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Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, Tina, Alessio, McCarron, ShaneM
Present: Gregory_Rosmaita Steven Tina Alessio McCarron ShaneM
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Nov/0000
Found Date: 11 Nov 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html
People with action items: gregory shane

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