EOWG minutes for 30 Oct 2009


  1. How to Report an Inaccessible Website [Draft]
  2. Improving Your Web Experience [early rough draft]



Doyle, Andrew, Yeliz, Sharron, Shadi, Jack, Jennifer, William, Liam
Alan, Song, Shawn, Helle


How to Report an Inaccessible Website

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/

Shadi: Andrew has been doing substantial reorganizing of the document to highlight steps more clearly. We want feedback on the tone, and details of the topic.
... What are the overall reactions to the document?

Jennifer: looks pretty good to me.

Yeliz: I agree with Jennifer, it reads well.

Shadi: changes? Things that worked better? Or not as good?

Jennifer: changes were not jumping out at me.

Shadi: How was it to skim? How were headings? Give a good idea of the document? Headers not at the expected place?

Yeliz: comment and question about the title of the document. I wonder if people think this document explains how to create a report, how does this work as a title?

Shadi: Is this a problem? Reaction or thoughts? I had a similar issue with the word report. Evaluation reporting is commonly used. Andrew, highlight the word 'report' to look at more closely.

<andrew> various titles were considered

<andrew> ACTION: reporting - consider the use of the word "report" in the title wrt non-english speaker and translations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Yeliz: Overview is very clear about how accessible a site is. Used elsewhere but this might get confusing. Very clear the aim of the document. What it is about. But use report somewhere else?

Shadi: check on it or highlight more. Especially with non-native speakers. To reconsider using.
... let's jump in section by section. Look at the content and tone. Not detailed word smithing. Took care of title. Yeliz explanation says the overview is very clear. Supposed to do an overview of the document and gist of what it is saying. Quick way to jump into the document.

<yeliz> I think "overview section" is very informative

Shadi: any thoughts?
... anything missing from the overview. Contact web site owner. Advice? Keep records is not really a step. Keep records of all exchanges.

Sharron: about attitude and try to remain courteous. Maybe people won't read all the detail. Something to say remain calm and courteous. Better response that way.

Jennifer: I agree with Sharron. Removed from the document Andrew?

Andrew: removed from this version.

shadi: has been toned down. We got comments that it was inappropriate to be told how to react.

Sharron: don't want to tell somebody how to feel.

Andrew: the reaction from some people was don't want to be told what to feel, when I feel angry.

Sharron: don't have to say you have a bunch of knuckle heads working there. Fine line between abuse and the person working there is not the person who made the decision. Remind people you are righteous angry but better results come from courtesy. People dismiss anger right out of the box. Good example of Wayne writing to the list from his experience. He said he was upset, and good to have a moment to take a deep breath.

Andrew: most people who are going to write an angry letter, will do so before reading this. Afterwards they look at the samples, what we advise.

william: taking a breath for ten years before you do this.

Sharron: belong in the first box?

Shadi: certainly arguments on both sides. Should be very courteous to the readers. Wording should be a pass at that. Some advice like this at the bottom. Constructive messages get the best results.

William: is that really true?

Jennifer: even if they are right, I'm so not inclined if they write in a rage. It just doesn't open a good dialogue.

William: I've noticed that.

Sharron: I write something off in anger, and that comes back to bite. Not that big a deal. If everyone else decides it doesn't belong there.

Jennifer: my gut agrees with you Sharron. If you are really that angry you won't find this document. If you want to write a good letter you go and see if someone has written this up well.

shadi: another use of the document as distributing for advocacy for people used to standing up for the rights. An admonition has to be worded cautiously.

Jennifer: not worth the costs I suppose to write down here.

Shadi: I don't hear strong voices are against.

William: we know this drives you crazy. But cautionary.

<yeliz> +1

Shadi: anybody disagree? Take a try and some effort to not hold off too long. To put in courteously.

Jennifer: make it short.

Sharron: I'm with you on that.

Shadi: Andrew spend a little effort for a single sentence. If possible. Not add if we can't find a good wording.

Sharron: that's great.

<andrew> ACTION: reporting - consider adding some advice at the end of the Overview about "being polite and courteous" and that "Constructive messages get the best results" - just a single sentence; not too much effort [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Shadi: something short like 'mark this page and pass along to others'. Short is difficult to write. Think about that advice as bookmarking this page. Does it have that level of being there.

William: I think it belongs there.

Jennifer: yes

Shadi: We have looked at the overview. Now look at the page content section. From reading the headers, does that give you a good feel for what's in the document?

Sharron: thinking about how useful this is. The sample is what a lot of people will get at.

Shadi: it goes to the areas?

Sharron: yes

Andrew: this is the table of contents on the right hand side.

Yeliz: On every WAI site the content is on the right?

Shadi:The Overview includes a few more things, belongs to the follow up section to be expanded. A lot of overlap.

Andrew: the overview section has some links to subsections.

Sharron: I thought that is good that is there. People have a general idea of what they want and want some examples.

Shadi: Any comments on the general general tone and style of writing? Too formal, too casual, too chatty?
... anything missing that you would want to see?

Jennifer: nothing jumps out at me when I skimmed the introduction this morning. Nothing jumped out to me, so it's fine as far as I'm concerned. My comment about the length of the document is I'd be worried if it got longer. I would add that to me it feels pretty skimmable. Read the beginning, and find what you want quickly.

shadi: that is pretty important. We tried to alter the headings, so we don't go to H4 anymore. Next section is identify key contact. Underneath that is some headings there.

Andrew: previously we advised to look for the most senior person. Then we thought contacting the page owner is the first place to start. Don't get a response, then move up the tree.

Shadi: Editorial thing. Try to front load that a bit more about who is the best person to contact.
... Section identify key contacts. Some advice on who to try to look for. Different places to look for that contact. Contact points on the web site. And alternatives to direct contact. I have two questions. We have contact point, and the other contact information. Is that a consistency issue?

William: not for me.

Shadi: alternatives to direct contact? Is that clear what that means?

William: no but reading the blurb makes it clear.

Shadi: the difference is for skimming.

William: fine for that.

Shadi: Other comments? On those four headings?
... Moving ahead. Section describe the problem. In the introductory section we provided guidance on being constructive. Clear?

Sharron: I think it clear.

William: I wonder if the email is centered on the BAD project.

Shadi: they are. Next section where is the problem and what is the problem encountered. Describe the problem

Andrew: the examples in this section can we reduce them? Reduces the value for people who are not familiar with this document?

Jennifer: valuable for those that need them and if they don't need them they can skip them.

shadi: add too much to the document? For example in what is the problem encountered. Three paragraphs in there and an example problem. Should be in H4?

Jennifer: in a screen reader you can skip as it is a list.

Andrew: visually you can jump.

Jennifer: I don't know if it is worth H4s.

shadi: first two subsection is pretty clear what would be in there?

Jennifer: I was thinking of I just don't know how much time it is worth, you could look at the page content list to see if everything is parallel.

Shadi: I wanted to raise people should be looking at. Can email in.

Yeliz: in this section, I just want to say, have you seen Google in Times Square, what do you think is the browser? It's is quite entertaining. I never thought to explain a browser is. They ask people what is a browser, someone says it's Google, and someone says Microsoft.


Yeliz: I will send a link to the video.

Shadi: I guess your comment Yeliz an extra bit of description Andrew has.

Andrew: with the details if you are uncertain someone can help.

Jennifer: I thought all fine. Nothing jumped out at me.

Shadi: provide pointers to resources, any thoughts on that?

Andrew: some of the new stuff we are working on should be included.

William: refer the organization to this document. to some resources about web accessibility they would be interested in.

Jennifer: feels circular to me.

William: it re-emphasizes the size of the effort of to deal with this.

Jennifer: I think they would want to refer to the business case numbers.

Shadi: we'll consider that.

Jennifer: I saw the business case referenced and that's good.

William: there are five things already and a sixth would serve. BAD included. Referred to the BAD directly rather than samples. This is part of a suite that includes the BAD.

<andrew> ACTION: reporting - consider including the BAD demo as a reference for developers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shadi: worth considering. Andrew consider the BAD demo and maybe this document itself. For printing might be useful. On the document bottom how to use for example printing. For developers who are not aware of accessibility.
... Next section follow-up as needed.
... there again several subsections there. Be available for follow-up, be responsive to action to consider.
... Thoughts? Style, tone, anything missing?
... move on to the sample email section. There is an email template. We have three sections. Include in the resources. Samples moved out from the body of the document to the bottom.
... last section provides permission to print or translate. That's the end of the document.

William: last sentence you are granted permission to modify these materials? Really mean that? Not standards doesn't bother me. Surprises me here? Most open documents as long as you blah blah you can do whatever you want.

Shadi: I wonder if this licensing thing is more scary than useful.

Andrew: I shortened and moved to bottom, and encourage them to take and use, to reuse if you need to. Or change if you need.

shadi: Further comments send to list. Immediate comments by end of the day today. We can consider at the face to face as input. Please help us finalize this document.

Improving Your Web Experience

<andrew> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/adaptive/strategies.html

Shadi: This comes from the last discussion in EO. Overall reactions to the document? Last three sections are not done yet. You will get an idea of how it is shaping up.

William: missing the BAD and How to Contact. Link contacting web site owners which involves the last document?

Shadi: we are making more documents for other audiences. This is for end user, rather than web site owners. Look at the changelog for the primary audience. They may be experiencing accessibility barriers. One of those real tricky things, to write to be introductory if possible but not dumb down. Is this what people expected?

William: yes

Jennifer: I would say yes. I have a question regarding audience. One potential audience a lot of libraries hold classes for seniors. This could be used for that. Mention that here?

Shadi: we have a specific audience. The primary users of this is the end users. But the indirect are classroom tutors as primary users also. The end users themselves are the primaries. In the shape of how that access the issue.

William: I don't think is for beginners. I deal with someone who is a computer science professional, but needs reminding about stuff. Someone to not leave out even though you think of this is for newbies.

Shadi: exactly.

William: you've reached a happy medium, I like it.

Shadi: I have some questions for throughout the document. Let's look at the headings and structuring. This is a long document. To manage that to be clear in the headings. So you can skim though. This includes the page content as well as headings. Let me know if you have reactions or thoughts.
... not flowing well or missing.

Andrew: reading again, worth reconsidering the heading "Difficulty Seeing and Reading Websites?". Is it difficulty of seeing and understanding rather than difficult because you can't see properly?

Shadi: hold onto seeing and reading is an issue. What about others?

William: we always wind up with understanding or navigating a web site. Stuff doesn't exist yet, because we glossed over this.

Shadi: what do you mean?

William: most of these things don't exist. We should be trying to do with the availability of these tools. They are slow or dead. Largely shut out from WCAG. I don't see anybody from those communities involved with this?

Shadi: I think that is a separate issue from this document. Back again to the document. Seeing and Reading. The issue is the question about the section about seeing and reading, seeing may refer to cognitive aspects rather than visual. I tried to put the word understanding to have a separate from seeing and reading. I'm not sure. Taking away reading and having difficulty seeing the web site. Would people jump over. Think they would say they have trouble seeing?

William: both words need to be questioned. All of those things have so many other meanings. Words matter in this header.

Shadi: Who else thinks reading in this context is confusing?

Jack: I think it is. Depends upon what you want to convey there. I'm not sure of clearer wording.

Andrew: we are saying Difficulty Seeing and 'hence' Reading Websites. But we don't express it like that in the heading.

Liam: dyslexia is important here, read out loud, to avoid barriers.

Shadi: I agree with you Liam. If there is no reading there they would skip over. Maybe have a link back somewhere for users you talk about specifically. Andrew take an action there.

William: at the event level you are having a problem.

<LiamMcGee> Would like to say I *like* reading in there - good for users who can see the page but not read the text e.g. people with minor visual impairments, or severe dyslexia

<andrew> ACTION: enjoyable browsing - the word "reading" in Difficulty Seeing and Reading Websites? is potentially confusing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Shadi: flesh out the understanding section. That might work to cross head.

Yeliz: I have a comment about this, how detailed are we going into, users can use style sheets, this will raise a lot of questions, how to create your own style sheet, in Firefox, or IE? In terms of customization.

Shadi: we can say what can we done. Then link to external resources.

Yeliz: useful to expand on how to customize your browser.

Shadi: on the section for how to enlarge images, there is an example. Includes and then has links to the resources. Have in each subsection, or all in the references. I would like to discuss now. The pros in having in each section is directly there. The user can go to resources. A lot of resources would be repeated and lengthen the document.
... or if in the references we could annotate them.

Yeliz: the reader would have to go through a long list of references, I would put the resources in a context.

Shadi: instead of a long list, and then directly jump to the references section. Another approach.

Andrew: linking in each section links deeper to a document rather than of beginning of the document but can be dead links, or more prone to disappear. I like the idea of direct linking, a problem is the maintenance and update issue.

Jennifer: if used in training. If I were library person. The resources grouped at the end, you have to assemble. I'm not saying good or bad. But for that use case you would have to do. To create a little fact sheet.

Shadi: an argument to have direct link.

Jennifer: I can see problems for having in the text as well.

Shadi: looking for references throughout to look for, and have inline and the end?

Jennifer: I don't like the maintenance issue.

Andrew: the generic issue you want to link to how to do that in Firefox.

Liam: you could from the references in the end.

Yeliz: as long as you provide a context, inline or end, not sure it is useful.

Shadi: structure the reference section, enlarging section. Try to condense that, I hate to use nested list. Redo the whole structure. I don't know which one is better.

Liam: worth having an explanatory sentence what to expect behind the reference?

Shadi: we plan on doing that. Andrew is collecting resources. Keep the sentences there.

Liam: not necessary for link to Opera, but what do I check resources.

Shadi: link to the subsections the bottom a link to take you to the reference section and is organized to take you to the actual resources.

Andrew: undecided.

William: at external resource explains what link you are going to.

Shadi: try and see how it goes?

Andrew: yes.

Shadi: try linking from the bottom of each subsection, to references.

<andrew> ACTION: enjoyable browsing - try initially linking from each subsection to the organised references (with annotations) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Yeliz: I am also undecided. Hard to tell if it works without seeing the document completed.

Shadi: point taken. Easy to have the section well organized, then easy to copy back up if better. See how this works for now.

<yeliz> +1

Andrew: consider if your grandmother is the primary user or the librarian whose class she attends.

Jack: I can see the argument either way.

Shadi: being more user centric how does it work?

Jack: for me this is a much better way to go. Looks to me like going in the right direction.

shadi: I feel I had some introduction worries. Let's switch going to the title first. Called improving your web experience, something like that.... Shawn had a mild concern about enjoyable?

Jennifer: sounds to me geeky, but the word productive comes to mind. Getting beyond the enjoyable part.

<yeliz> efficient

Jack: I like productive or usable or functional. Enjoyable sounds too casual than we want to be.

Shadi: I thought of accessible.

Jennifer: I don't think you don't want to accessible.

Liam: I worry we think too much of from a work context. I think Enjoyable is quite nice. Encourages people to think they will be happy.

Jennifer: I think your point has a lot of value. The web can be enjoyable, if you can remove the annoyances.

Liam: in increasing older users, their eyesight is not perfect, increasing the text size makes it more enjoyable.

Yeliz: both enjoyable and productive. I agree with Liam. Enjoyable is important. I don't think using the word accessible. Even if they customize the browsers.

<yeliz> too technical, jargony

Shadi: is usable too jargony?

Liam: yes

<yeliz> Me too, I agree with Jennifer

Jennifer: I would enjoyable only than to switch usable.

Shadi: still be there alone? Or two words. Enjoyable and productive, or efficient.

Jennifer: Liam convinces me to have enjoyable.

Doyle: I like enjoyable and productive.

Shadi: I will use editors discretion.

Liam: how about for fun and profit.

<andrew> ACTION: enjoyable browsing - play with "enjoyable" in the title, consider alternative words, possibly incorporate the productivity aspect [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action06]

Shadi: that's what I meant to have enjoyable and the efficiency aspect to. Way to customize is for the target readers of this document.

Jennifer: that's fine.

Shadi: we have a intro section, how to adjust the computer, and sometimes doesn't work and there is a link back to contacting website owners about inaccessible web sites. Here some references might be useful. General references like OS and other features to customize the system. Being introductory and motivational. You probably break things and just try.

<andrew> ACTION: enjoyable browsing - Explore Your Computer System might link to some general OS and/or Browser customising references [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action07]

Shadi: ask if you have difficulty seeing a web site, then have a subsection there. One question. Documents from the W3C are text heavy. Wonder if illustrations might help. But...

Jennifer: I think it would be helpful, but is hard to get good illustrations. The challenge is vendor endorsement appearances. It would help when they see Firefox logo here.

Shadi: that may or may or not be an issue. It's tricky. All major browser vendors are W3C members.

Jennifer: for this audience visual cuing is great.

Shadi: one vote but may be difficult to do. Thoughts or concerns.

Liam: I think showing examples before and after, is really important.

Jennifer: I think Liam is onto a good point. Maybe when external resources are chosen, things that show those already would be useful.

Shadi: usually from any template there is change colors and text type, and that actually is a step by step guidance to read the browser, to link and expand on. That is certainly useful. Liam are you aware of any resources that could help? Andrew, record as a wish list. How to go about collecting resources. Wish list.

Liam: do screen grabs of before and after?

Shadi: Probably not. Video would be useful.

<LiamMcGee> I think that it could happily go live without illustrations/images/vids, but they would be great additions

<andrew> ACTION: enjoyable browsing - for wish-list - can we include resources that include illustrations (or enhance our WAI resources further) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action08]

Yeliz: Video would be useful. References are actually include a lot screen prints to show the effect of changing text size. What can be done. Explain exactly how to do them.

<andrew> MyWeb-MyWay has illustrations as well as text for Firefox etc instructions

Shadi: this kind of illustration might fit better. I agree with Yeliz this might not be the ideal section to insert that.
... The link above has illustrations for Firefox and text. An issue with that resource if the BBC can't keep up to date. I'm wondering if we can keep up to date. Not to get into details and links to resources. Just manage references, but not manage links. Keep the ideas coming Liam.
... Another issue, we have some key words like screen readers, or refreshable braille. They belong in the WAI glossary, we have some explanation there, but we are unclear yet and how exactly. That is the section difficulty seeing web sites. In the section on hearing the website, is anything missing? Difficulty typing and using your keyboard.
... Jumping back to the introductory blurbs. Right under the heading on using the accessible web sites. Consider is this too dumb [simple] here. Helpful here?

Andrew: is helpful. Professionals still don't know how to adjust the screen brightness.

<yeliz> I agree with Andrew

Liam: this is so important for underlying technical requirements. But for someone with mobility issues, setup can be very important.

Shadi: too basic start?

<yeliz> I agree

<yeliz> +1

Liam: better to be more basic.

Shadi: difficulty in hearing multimedia web sites. Maybe inappropriate to say the speaker is not connected?

Andrew: Shadi said he couldn't hear me and I had plugged into the microphone jack. If the simple mistake is not there, then start looking for more sophisticated solutions.

<LiamMcGee> resource for sticky-keys etc: www.communis.co.uk/accessibility.html

Shadi: I didn't want to turn into a difficulty with my computer hotline. But people have confirmed for me basic is good.

Jennifer: isn't different based on the operating system.

Liam: just have a windows and mac though.
... hiding down in the reference section, but nice to see when you read to play with as you go.

<LiamMcGee> Note also toggle-keys, mouse-keys

<LiamMcGee> High contrast keyboard toggle

Shadi: in that section difficulty accessing the web by typing. A section on how to use the keyboard. If you trouble using you mouse. Most readers might be have difficulty my keyboard or mouse, there is a subsection about how to optimize the keyboard. Belong under the mouse here?

<andrew> +1 for mouse location

Liam: I think appropriate and have how to use mouse keys? The vast majority of people are on Windows. Worth even if you caveat using Windows. I am not familiar with MAC versions? Somebody here familiar with Mac?

Doyle: I know macs.

Andrew: keytop stickers are something available to help see the keys.

Liam: anyone using Windows can hold left shift and then screen print.

Shadi: I hope we can link to explain this rather than have that much detail in the document. Andrew reminds me what is missing. But the document gets much longer when you take that into account.

<andrew> ACTION: enjoyable browsing - keyboard section - mention toggle-keys and mouse-keys (in vision mention high contrast toggle via keyboard [Liam]) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Liam: hamstrung by including a bunch of stuff.
... less so in which version of Windows. IE six might be a little different but otherwise.

<LiamMcGee> Reference: getting most of IE, Opera and Mozilla: http://www.communis.co.uk/browsertips.html

<andrew> please send additions for the references section of the changelog

Shadi: lets see what we can do with external resources. There is a link in the changelog about references. Please send us additional references. The more we know what's out there the more we know to explain. Other thing, we need more input on difficulty on the understanding web sites. A bit of bucket of things that didn't fit elsewhere. Like sign language avatars, or pop ups. How to navigate across a web site. Any comments you send on this document will be consider in the face to

Liam: I'll drop an email with some extras.

Shadi: please everyone. Any other comments?

<andrew> documents for face 2 face discussion next week

Shadi: Looking forward to seeing you at the face to face.

Jennifer: me too.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: enjoyable browsing - Explore Your Computer System might link to some general OS and/or Browser customising references [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: enjoyable browsing - for wish-list - can we include resources that include illustrations (or enhance our WAI resources further) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: enjoyable browsing - keyboard section - mention togglekeys and mousekeys (in vision mention high contrast toggle via keyboard [Liam]) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: enjoyable browsing - play with "enjoyable" in the title, consider alternative words, incorporate the productivity aspect [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: enjoyable browsing - the word "reading" in Difficulty Seeing and Reading Websites? is potentially confusing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: enjoyable browsing - try initially linking from each subsection to the organised references (with annotations) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: reporting - consider adding some advice at the end of the overview about "being polite" and that "Constructive messages get the best results" - just a single sentence; not too much effort [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: reporting - consider including the BAD demo as a reference for developers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: reporting - consider the use word "report" in the title wrt non-english speaker and translations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/30-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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