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<trackbot> Date: 28 October 2009
<smaug> yngve?
<smaug> Zakim ??P1 is me
<scribe> scribe: Travis
<scribe> scribeNick: Travis
<smaug> khiitola: ping
shepazu: Who's going to TPAC?
I am.
smaug: No.
<khiitola> smaug: pong.
<smaug> khiitola: the telco is now, if you want to join
shepazu: mmm.
<khiitola> Thanks. Trying to decipher what's happening here. (sorry, I'm a newbie)
khiitola: Here to talk about touch/gesture at your convenience
shepazu: I've thought about
putting touch/gesture into DOM L4 events.
... but have been advised to put it into its own spec.
... many companies have IP in this area and could be a
minefeild.
... We're still not done with Dom L3 Events, so want to keep
focus there.
... Folks are free to discuss on the list, but may not get much
traction.
... khiitola does this fit your timeframe?
khiitola: Would love something sooner, but willing to live with the group's decision.
shepazu: Naturally, I'm don't have to be the editor...
khiitola: I vote for smaug
smaug: Hmm. very funny.
shepazu: Also very busy...
... Let's hit the agenda, and then come back to Touch
stuff.
shepazu: Spoke with International
folks and VoicXML team recently.
... "Visual browser" preferred in that Working group ;-)
... They are using DOM L3 Events in an unorthedox way.
... May be able converge XML+V into D3E.
... Here's how they use D3E:
... No script (all declarative). For a document, the capture
phase is used to determine a catch handler.
... Any catch handler (on a proximal event target) gets
accumulated.
... Very similar to how a UA registered event handlers in the
markup during parsing.
... Subtle differences: Only one handler will get invoked (not
all possible handlers).
... Their algorithm selects the most appropriate event given
current context.
... They asked whether it's reasonable to use D3E for their
technique.
... Jury's still out.
smaug: MS has SALT... similar to XML+V -- and more similar to what visual browsers do.
shepazu: What if there was a SALT-like profile?
smaug: Opera has some support for
XML+V (or used to?)
... Not sure how the visual browser and the XML+V
interacted.
... To me, a visual browser implementor wouldn't consider
integrating XHTML+Voice directly.
shepazu: Members appear to be
neutral to the position, but don't want to see changes to D3E
to accomodate XHTML+Voice.
... Will take this feedback to them.
Travis: (Confused about terminology)
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml+voice/
shepazu: Travis, willing to meet with these people informally at TPAC?
Travis: Yes.
<shepazu> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/x-v11spec/index.html
shepazu: Internationalization
(I18n)
... I18n have had issues with KeyBoard events in the
past.
... Pleased to report that post-summary of the current
KeyboardEvent plan was good.
... Mentioned that we return the key after all modifier
processing has happened.
... This is what they wanted.
... Concerned about encodings in supplementary planes (upper
character ranges) and how they are processed by JavaScript.
Travis: Is there a JavaScript language limitation, or is this a DOM L3 Events issue to solve?
shepazu: Not sure. Apple asked if
there were keyboard that could produce characters in the
supplementary ranges? Answer was yet.
... s/yet/yes/
... We might try normalizing the output.
... In JavaScript there are two escape sequences in a row.
Alternate forms exist.
... Again, there are a few concerns, but these aren't
blocking.
... My plan is to use JavaScript escape sequences, and provide
an API to extract the Unicode code point from an escape
sequence (or something like that).
... e.g., so that someone using Java could get the the same
character, but may have to go through another step...
... I18n will review the spec in full, but they seem happy with
it. Yeah!!!
Travis: How deep to recursive event handlers go (thinking of DOMNodeInserted handler that inserts a node).
smaug: Certain changes to the DOM
within a mutation event listener are not allowed.
... not sure what other implementations do.
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu to add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-426 - Add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync) [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
Travis: This is also releated to sync/async.
Travis: Wanting to introduce this experimental event to fill a void for detecting when the style sheets have all loaded.
shepazu: May want to contact annavk re: CSSOM for that.
shepazu: If the property is not
"in use" then it has random or default values.
... This reminds me of the "button" issue...
... PPK dislikes the W3C method (does not allow button
combinations)
... What do you folks think about "buttons" with more of the IE
behavior (a bit mask)
Travis: I'm hesitant to add this-- don't want to introduce the complexity and redundancy (and confusion?)
shepazu: I'd like to put this in the spec as a proposal--to get community feedback.
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: e.g., programmatically create click event, dispatch it to an <A> element, and does it navigate the page?
shepazu: This makes me really nervous.
Travis: This is allowed in most browsers (I believe)
smaug: Yes, for back compat--we broke this once and got lots of complaints.
<smaug> ^^^^that was for keypress on input elements, IIRC
smaug: We distinguish between "trusted events" and "non-trusted", and give trusted events the ability to cause default actions.
<smaug> isTrusted
shepazu: Should we add this
concept to the spec?
... This would be a new attribute for events
("trusted"={true/false}). Programmatic dispatch of events would
always be trusted=false.
Travis: Create an event. Init the event. Call stopImmediatePropagation(). Now dispatch.
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-427 - Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
Travis: This does not accomodate
the Window object.
... (e.g., defaultView)
... Should all events be allowed to be captured on the
defaultView?
shepazu: Yes.
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-428 - Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
Travis: That's all I have
shepazu: Want to discuss touch/gesture events?
khiitola: Would love to get a list of people interested in contributing to a specification on touch/gesture?
shepazu: It's in our charter to
handle this.
... Call to advisory commitee has already gone out.
... Can ask for "interest" in the advisory committee (using
official channels)
... Can ask specific people as desired.
... Note: No telecon next week.
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu to the COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-429 - The COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
shepazu: For multitouch, does each touchpoint have an id?
smaug: A stream id.
shepazu: What about two different people touching the device?
(Travis not participating)
shepazu: You CAN detect
it!!
... Can refer to this as "alternative input events" (AIE)
khiitola: Should include the word "ninja"
<shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/XML+V/XHTML+Voice/ Found Scribe: Travis Inferring ScribeNick: Travis Found ScribeNick: Travis Default Present: [Microsoft], Shepazu, yngve, smaug, +358.407.37aaaa, khiitola Present: [Microsoft] Shepazu yngve smaug +358.407.37aaaa khiitola Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009OctDec/0078.html WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 28 Oct 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html People with action items: shepazu[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]