Shawn: Questions about the BAD? Before After Demo.
Shadi: BAD demo. Home page is
... Briefing you on what we have done. Continuing to work on the demo navigation. Switch back and forth between example page, the report with the real content on them.
... we've done here is on that home page, in the second section in the Demo content. All the pages are listed there. Can jump into a page from there.
... On the inaccessible page near the top of the page, on the right hand side are demo the page, and tabs to various pages. what's different the about demo will take you back to the overview page. The report belongs to that page. You can select the report now. Take you to the inaccessible pages. This now jump back again to the WAI look and feel. Real content needs some kind of look and feel to signal content. When you are in the inaccessible page.
... we tried an icon but that didn't work well. You can flip back and forth between the sample pages and the reports. This is what we have done for the overall navigation. You can switch back and forth. The left hand navigation and jump between reports and the accessible and inaccessible parts. We need feedback now. How does the navigation and sample pages is working in the demo? Comments or thoughts?
Jack: Generally I really liked the way to move back and forth. To provide an overall structure to easily say where you are at. I really like that. On the main HTML page, the inaccessible web site before, and the accessible site after. I have a question about the middle column with annotation. I wonder what I get with that. Could it be crisper without that? What do you intend with that column. The overall navigation works very well.
Shadi: thank you. The problem
with the annotation is not populated now. Go back to the
overview page, select the accessible web site the home page
with demo content.
... Home page and the second item is annotation. Accessible home page three items on the left side. Screen reader nuggets as well which tell you where the items are. Those annotations are put in line. If you hover the annotation they will tell you what the area is. They provide information which tells you what is information about that location. That explain the accessibility features for that item. All the home pages have annotations that show the
... this information is also available at the bottom of the page. You can see the annotations and print. Right under the tab navigation you can hide the annotations. Question - the wording annotations explained? From a navigation perspective works well.
Jack: I understand the annotation. My question is more specific, is the middle column in the main HTML page needed? I'm not sure why we need the annotation column there. On the pages themselves it says show or hide annotation.
Alan: Say show or hide in the demo.
Shawn: I agree make it clearer, the annotations is really clear in a bullet.
William: Wouldn't have to have on the home page. Through an example web site rather than hierarchic.
Liam: By the annotations link. Williams idea is great put the annotation link by the page.
william: pretending this is a real web site. Wouldn't have an evaluation.
Shadi: ok on the overview the middle column have a link to annotations to explain that and to turn on for each page. The second suggestions take away the upright link to the annotation report and put a button or link beside the annotations.
Shadi: in that case what about the demo link on the top right?
<shawn> ACTION: Demo suggestion: in overview page, remove "- with annotations" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shadi: Thank you, any other thoughts or suggestions.
Alan: I'm confused about the annotation report. A link from the annotations to the evaluations report. Cover similar scope.
Shadi: A link from the annotations to the evaluations report. Could put into each annotation. The annotations are put into place, because there might not be a direct one to one match.
<shawn> ACTION: Demo suggestion: in overview page, clearly explain Annotations in the "Using the Demo" section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Alan: Why do they say pass or fail really in the annotations?
Shadi: A good thought Alan, once the annotations and report is populated we'll try that.
<shadi> ACTION: (1) remove the "with annotations" link and explaining the annotations separately (2) remove the "Evaluation report" link and make it a button like the "show annotations" button (3) consider linking between the annotations and the report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action03]
<shawn> ACTION: Demo suggestion: in sample pages, consider moving "Evaluation Report" next to "Show Annotations" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Shadi: the last comment trying to put links in the reports and the annotations. Any other comments on the overall navigation?
Shawn: when you are in the accessible or inaccessible versions. There is a link to accessible version. Does anything say you are in an inaccessible version?
Shadi: Redundant coding for ...?
Jack: Clear label of accessible or inaccessible label?
Yeliz: I also found it confusing.
Shawn: right above tab say accessible and the link to the other over a little bit to not have them touch.
Shadi: we had a discussion about that, It would clutter up that side. I will take that comment back to group.
Jennifer: I may have missed, I found myself using it as a screen reader. I would have two windows open to alt tabbing between them. The page title was different enough to know where I am.
Shadi: the page title should show you in the after side. On the before side you wouldn't.
Shawn: put in something in brackets afterward?
Liam: the title should be as a learning resource in the page or not.
<shadi> ACTION: (4) add more information about the current location on the demo pages (color coding is not enough) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action05]
<shawn> ACTION: Demo suggestion: Make clear whether you're on an accessible or inaccessible version. Maybe put it above or before the tabs. And move the link to the other one away from the tabs a bit [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Shawn: sounds like a challenge between the title is the title of meta page, or the title of the page itself. Accessible or not for someone trying to use it?
Shadi: I will take back to think about. Not only the site is the issue. Jennifer have you observed other problems with the page. Things that don't work well?
Jennifer: I don't want to turn
into a screen reader centered discussion. I was new to it. I
would say in an overall sense to get myself oriented. It was
difficult to keep track of where I was. I wonder if we can find
a different language like the icon that says a different
... find one word to describe instead of several. That is distracting. When encountering over and over.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest a dummy browser title line
William: before and after synonyms might contribute to this.
<shadi> ACTION: (5) title of before pages is confusing - should reflect the location not the sample page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shawn: put a fake browser title bar in the page. Visually the page has a title and the title is the same each time and in the code it says the title each time, but use the real title of the meta page for navigation.
Shadi: A good idea.
<shadi> ACTION: (6) "different format" is repetitive - consider a briefer alt [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Liam: you could make sure that anyone seeing one of these pages, they have seen the overview page first. Bounce them to the overview page if they haven't come from the overview page. You can keep the purity of the page.
Shawn: that doesn't cover the problem that Jennifer pointed out. You have to differentiate four or five pages.
Jack: when you bounce and forth to know the differences. To look at individually or to show to others.
<shadi> ACTION: (7) consider imitating a browser chrome in the demo area to show the title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Jennifer: the approach I would take would be the logical one.
Jack: may be a very common way to use this. One way that would be often be used.
Shadi: I think the candidate now it the browser chrome thinking. We'll see what we can do with that. We expected people to flip back and forth. More suggestions?
Sylvie: My question has been talked about all ready. When reading the links when looking at the overview, to explain the link is in another format. It is not clear what the link is. There is a dash between them and it is not clear in a screen reader.
Shawn: My suggestion could be without the icon. The navigation bar be on the left. Make the icon description would be moot and do away with that.
Shadi: Sylvie on the overview page, the icon is outside the page. That is a bug. We decided to remove the annotation link. There is a bug there as well. I will go ahead with Shawn's suggestion.
Shawn: I propose for suggestion that the evaluation report not have a navigation. Not the main WAI navigation bar. Easier to read. More width for large fonts. It feels like more of the demo and less like a separate resource from WAI. Remove the whole WAI navigation bar, leaving the masthead and the breadcrumb on that.
Jennifer: I would second that.
Andrew: How would you differentiate the reports? From the demo pages themselves?
William: you are on the evaluation page and want to go to another evaluation?
Andrew: you would need another navigation to do.
Shawn: use the same kind of tabs as in the demo pages.
William: if the title of all of these pages. Had three boxes on there with a scroll box, like the navigation report, and that would be the title of the thing to show where you were?
Shadi: Including the tabs did get confusing and people thought it would be back to the navigation page. When you switch and go back to the demo pages and people thought, they would be looking at the home page and not get there. Why are you proposing to have the WAI heading at the top? Rather than having in the demo.
Shawn: I would be fine with
having in the demo. We should have in the WAI demo pages have
WAI branding as well. Even just a logo and sample pages.
... I would be quite happy without the WAI masthead.
Shadi: one requirement was to make clear you are on the report page or demo. Report page has real info, and the demo not. All these different sorts of stuff, makes sense to have demo content and real content.
Shawn: When we talked about before. The demo took up all the content and some strips above and below. Now it is clearer now visually corrected the problem from before.
<shadi> ACTION: (8) consider putting the reports into the Demo look&feel (and add WAI branding to all pages) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action10]
<shawn> ACTION: add w3c & wai logos to the top left of the sample pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action11]
Jack: I second Shawn's comment. This is so much more robust. You need to distinguish the issues from before. I like this how you are going now.
Shadi: good feedback. That will simplify a lot of things including the icons. Navigating across different space is nice.
Shawn: move navigation reports out of the WAI wrapper all together. Get rid all together. Don't need in each one.
Shadi: any other questions or comments on the navigation?
Liam: From last time we knew was tough to present. This is great and happy to see go live.
<yeliz> It looks great
Shadi: thank you. Bear that in
mind also Liam. A lot of the comments came in fit together
quite well. There is consensus to go in that direction.
... The next thing to look at. The reports themselves look? We are still deciding the visuals. This is how the reports will work. Format we had long discussion about is it stable. We tried many different ways and came back to a table. Collapsible. WAI principles before, and the guidelines after. The guidelines level is expanded. The plus minus icon. Expands the success criteria. Explains success criteria.
<shawn> ACTION: "Show full description" ->"show full success criteria" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action12]
Shadi: on the inaccessible
reports we see failures, why the success criteria is not met.
I'm on the report for accessible pages. To see what full fills
the requirements. Also the feature that is available. For
guidelines it will cut them , there is full description
function. The link in the title column links to WCAG 2 itself.
All the titles link to WCAG 2 as the original source. Then
there is for the failures you can go to the quick
... comments or questions?
William: Bobby on Steroids?
... similar to the whole development of Bobby. Goes actually to a standard of WCAG 2. Explains every problem with the page. Spectacular is great.
Liam: I like it. A bit confusing the difference between guidelines, and check points. Could something be done to differentiate them more?
William: perceivable and text alternatives are aligned vertically?
Shawn: visually good to be indented.
William: all capital letters?
Liam: what about a non-visual maybe people would have to learn.
Shawn: from a usability perspective that could be fairly significant.
Shadi: uses more space to indent.
Shawn: right now in the number column you would have to five spaces. But designed differently you would to be one character. Second column could only be three characters long.
William: some means that generate evaluation report for any web site.
<shadi> ACTION: (9) add indentation for the requirement titles - consider merging with # column [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action13]
Shawn: no this is not a tool at this point? More discussion.
Liam: could you explain the indentation problem?
Shawn: 1 point one and others is on the same level. You can tell but easier if visually as well. Especially if expanded. Make a big difference.
Andrew: Alan was also asking for other flags to make it more obvious (eg P, G, SC).
Alan: something for a non visual.
William: becomes a short reports that looks good.
<shawn> +1 to making the principles headings
<shawn> and maybe the guideline "titles"
Shadi: a question about adding more cues. Acronyms are not obvious, but for non-visual users we should add non visual content. Do we want to do that visually as well. Visually more information? In the link title is success criteria. More there also?
Liam: when you start adding numbers the vertical grid is more confusing. Could be using different colour for each row such as eee or ddd without cluttering visually?
Shadi: in one of the earlier version. To differentiate became too many colors. Some color differences.
Andrew: three different colors at the moment.
Liam: they don't stack doesn't get progressively more yellow.
<shadi> ACTION: consider using colors - progressive shading [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action14]
Liam: that is the sort of stuff when we set out the guidelines document is to use that shading cue.
Shadi: one for the before and one
... I note that down. Some kind of coding. I am not hopeful. You argue against indentation Liam?
Liam: yes you have a lot of verticals. You are not clear what will get you down. Another level confuses and not a column breaking apart the column.
Shadi: add the word principle or guidelines. In text acronym.
Liam: I'm not keen. You have done really good on the stripping down.
Shawn: I don't think the title should be indented. The descriptions is indented level. Could be overall don't indent, but use a number.
Liam: i think it would still be difficult to read. I am for a shading for wording.
Yeliz: What about separating the single table into four different tables based on the principles.
<shawn> s/ I don't think the title should be indented. The descriptions is indented level./ I don't think the title or description should be indented. Just the number./
shadi: to take out the perceivable heading. Heading with operable and another table and so on. What do people think of that.
Jennifer: It was an idea I had? The table is large and becomes hard to track, breaking down like Yeliz describes. Emphasizes the four principles more than they should be.
<shadi> ACTION: consider making the principles as page headings [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action15]
Andrew: I like the suggestions into four tables. Easier to track the guidelines and success criteria as well.
Shadi: let's imagine the principles separated. Only have the levels affected by indentation. Should not be more indentation for success criteria and title should still be in the same line? What was the suggestion.
Shawn: in balancing what Liam says, to have fewer alignments to be have the title descriptions stay at the same alignment.
Andrew: leave 1.1 as is and indent 1.1.1 a few em?
Shawn: It would make easier for me and Alan but I can't be sure until I see it.
Andrew: I would like to see but I'm not sure about it at all.
Shawn: If you break into different titles. Then you would have only two levels in the tables. The guidelines could be bold. More easy to use other visual cues for guidelines and success criteria.
Shadi: and issue in the reports.
Shawn: I don't think you need to have different colors in the tables. You have pass fail and don't have to different colors.
... other comments on the report?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to question pass/fail at principle level and to ask about linking to HOw to Meet/QUick Ref for all (not some to /TR?)
Shawn: Pass fail at the principle level. I don't see a value to that. At success criteria level certainly.
William: collapse all rows you want to know.
shawn: just pass fail, potentially negative. If I was giving someone an evaluation report I wouldn't want to have at all levels. Have at the principles level have a percent or nothing. At the guidelines level not, and only at the success criteria pass fail.
Sharron: how do you account for NA?
Shawn: that would be a pass.
Sharron: that makes sense.
<shadi> ACTION: consider using X/Y figures rather than pass/fail for principles and guidelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action16]
Andrew: a suggestion to move the principles out to four individual tables. There is one less row to make sure pass fail is in.
Jack: why would be there? As a demo to show for a presentation it would be an easy way to show.
Shawn: supposed to be model evaluation report. We put here that how they would do their evaluation reports. For their own evaluation reports.
Williams: brings me to the problem someone generated this report. Should say that is done by hand. Looks like a tool did this that doesn't exist.
Liam: what's the difference between at the level of principles you have fail in the box, and at the level of guidelines you have an icon.
Shadi: To help us with looking at the level like success criteria. I hear more arguments of taking out principles and use as page headers. Solve a lot of problems. The color coding and other aspects is solved. Unless anybody speaks up, to try to make the principle levels as headings.
<shadi> ACTION: consider using pass/fail text rather than icons [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action17]
Shawn: change from icons to text? This is hand generated report. I wouldn't have the little icons. Easier to search on, and to sort on. Having the little icons make it look like a computer generated report. Take away things that look computer generated.
Shadi: thank you couldn't be generated by computer. I will take that back to re-look at. I don't disagree with the arguments. I see where this is going.
Andrew: having the icons there is easier to know what you are looking at.
Shawn: to help skimming put NA in lower case. Put in the NA in a lighter color like gray. Easier to skim for the other stuff.
<shadi> ACTION: consider having n/a in lower case and gray (to be easier to skim over) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/02-eo-minutes.html#action18]
Andrew: at the guideline pass fail?
Shawn: a fraction like 2 of 10
William: some reason to show the NA things?
<shawn> s/ a percent like 2 of 10/ a percent: 2/10/
Jennifer: when I do reports I put in the NAs to understand why that is applicable to the item. Makes sure you did the work.
Andrew: makes sure you know what to watch out for.
Shawn: might be not applicable for this page but applicable to another page.
Shadi: we had this discussion,
but all we only come up with like no media on this page.
... I would not add anything more than applicable.
Jennifer: that give them a chance to ask why NA. But not the report to explain in every case. Just a marker.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to still talk about and to ask about linking to How to Meet/QUick Reference for all (not some to /TR?)
Shawn: link to how to meet?
shadi: from the start to how to meet, but there were no principles there.
Shawn: EO asked about principles being added, and they said it would add too much complexity.
Shadi: argues for picking principles to the headings. All links go to the quick links document. Other comments?
<shawn> +1 to having only the technique number linked!
Shadi: At the beginning Shawn suggestion about changing success criteria. This is the time to suggest other criteria. At ...level link to the number and the text of that not in the link. Only available for 1.1.1 how it would look like. To expand the criteria.
Liam: looks really good.
<andrew> +1 here too (even though small targets)
Shadi: I'm mostly done.
William: what will happen with the icons? Can a screen reader tell the difference between large X and small x?
Shadi: no have failed guideline or failed criterion?
Shawn: I tried to avoid at all costs. I think it is geeky.
Shadi: the word itself?
Shadi: the use of icons came up in the discussion. Let's re-look at that after the break out of the four.
Jennifer. I have a quick thought. The report is a model. To serve of how to doing the reports. Make a mock template PDF and a Mock word version? What would they look like. Just a mock page people could hand fill in.
Shadi: a good idea. It might be a bit of scope creep. I'll record on the wish list though.
Jennifer: yes I agree.
Shawn: we have a template somewhere else (but hasn't been edited since 2002)
William: I assume this works. Would you be able to have a tool to help with this?
Shadi: yes. I don't want to get into that. Because of the different options. The main thing this should serve as a model report. Go to the updated evaluation report. To add is something to think about. Additional resource be added at some time. I hope this report is used within WAI and outside WAI. The person is working on this report doing this because they want to use back again for their reporting. A win win situation.
Shawn: want to go over view page?
Shadi: The demo content area of the over view page. I'd like to discuss the change from demonstration to demo. We use in the title in H1. But we use demo afterward. I see it in my mind meaning something besides an illustration.
Andrew: in English it's fine. Reading as a second or third language may be more difficult. A derivative of demonstration but is a bit slangy.
Shadi: demo is moving over into
German. Demonstration doesn't have any meaning.
... any comments for the overview page now, I'd like to bring back later some remaining quality stuff.
... comments on the overview page?
... ok, Shawn I'm done for now.
Shawn: couple of reminders the
Technical Plenary and Face to Face registration the deadline is
Monday. Wise to register today.
... EO news to share? What people are saying? bump higher in priority list?
Jennifer: thoughts about those sites could be used to the business case. They are all non-profits. Increased traffic, but as non-profits a little different. I have focused in to a business model.
Shawn: nice to say the data from improvement doesn't matter if non-profit or business.
Liam: if any non-profits go online nationally.
<LiamMcGee> Measure year-on-year increase in donations
<LiamMcGee> Measure depth of engagement
Shawn: sites will be will be re-designed. Two things to do, which ones are doing their own tracking. Liam what's the situation with hits.
Liam: from three months before to three months after. Put the requests in October, if AR sites will be changing now to do a follow up in three months.
Sharron: should poll them to see who has stats?
Shawn: get the list.
Liam: get those who have stats or not.
Sharron: send to?
Andrew: nice to get started as a benefit to non-profits as well as commercial sites.
Shawn: it's a number which doesn't distinguish between types of sites.
Liam: nice to show they go up in traffic.
Sharron: Get the companies non-profits to share data?
Liam: we don't need to share the data. We can pull the data from hit wise.
Sharron: that could be tricky because a huge site makes incremental changes.
Liam: the only caveat there are seasonal changes. The change in growth because of accessible is what you need.
<LiamMcGee> what we need is dates of causes
<LiamMcGee> then we look at the effects
Liam: the critical need is the
known date before changes started, and the date after changes
were finished. to pin down change effects.
... I spend the week looking at all the search for all WHY. It is an interesting area of demand accessible.
... a whole bunch of people want to know about why. Interesting that is demand from people who want to have more access, and this might be worth discussing, on how to use web sites that are accessible.
Andrew: some of the things coming out of the WAI-AGE project will address that depending what people are asking about.
Liam: general questions about how to use the web. To look at making the web accessible we shift to how you can use a double A site. Have the effect of managing peoples expectation. If they claim Double AA but they have no heading.
Shawn: I wanted to say, Sharron or anyone gathering business case data. Even they don't want to say numbers but if they can say something that would meet our need but not uncomfortable.
Liam: when changes were made would be enough.
Sharron: that's fine.
Shawn: thanks. We'll have the agenda will be ready by the middle of the week.