See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 16 September 2009
<scribe> Scribe: Max_Froumentin
<scribe> ScribeNick: maxf
trackbot, help
<trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
<fhirsch> some scribe instructions are here
<fhirsch> http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Scribe-Instructions.html
<fhirsch> but we've done the initial set up already
<fhirsch> when you join, please use irc to register yourself with Present+ your_name
<marengo> hi
<fhirsch> when you join please register yourself with Present+ name, and update your handle with zakim, aabb is irc-name
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<fhirsch> when you join, please update the minutes attendance with Present+ your-name and update the phone bridge by mappting your number with zakim, e.g. zakim, aabb is maxf etc
<fhirsch> if you use a real name with the Present+ command then your real name will appear in the minutes attendance...
<fhirsch> when you join, please update the minutes attendance with Present+ your-name and update the phone bridge by mappting your number with zakim, e.g. zakim, aabb is maxf etc
<darobin> Zakim: pick up the phone dammit!
<fhirsch> when you join, please update the minutes attendance with Present+ your-name and update the phone bridge by mappting your number with zakim, e.g. zakim, aabb is maxf etc
<fhirsch> when you join, please update the minutes attendance with Present+ your-name and update the phone bridge by mappting your number with zakim, e.g. zakim, aabb is maxf etc
<darobin> w00t!
<arve> I see zakim knew my home number already
<LA> yes, Laura Arribas Laura Arribas
<dom> Group's list of participants
<dom> ScribeNick: maxf
<dom> Scribe: maxf
<fhirsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Sep/0031.html
<fhirsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Sep/0031.html
fhirsch: ok with agenda?
[agreement]
<wonsuk> +1 for current agenda
<dom> a few (re-used) slides
fhirsch: agenda item 2, introduction to W3C
dom: [goes through slides above]
<darobin> the full story on Recommendation Track: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#Reports
fhirsch: about the submissions, is there anything special to say. e.g. Bondi?
tlr: behind the scenes W3C and
OMTP staff have been chasing companies involed with Bondi
... it is my understanding that all companies involved in Bondi
have joined the WG or in one case have made a commitment to the
WG
... (royalty free commitment)
... also, a few companies have indicated interest in future
Bondi work. These companies will either join this group or make
a similar comitment
... so I think we're good to go and don't have an IPR
concern.
fhirsch: from a chairing perspective, we don't like to talk about IPR, so we'll avoid it as much as possible
darobin: as participant you're more than welcome to raise any issue youre aware of
<dom> Device APIs and Policy Working Group home page
fhirsch: we have a weekly call
now scheduled, an IRC channel. There are instructions on our
site.
... people should be familiar with IRC queues, tracking,
agenda, etc.
<dom> DAP WG Tracker
darobin: the tracker is not just for chairs. People can give themselves action items.
fhirsch: chairs welcome help with
maintaining and editing actions
... good form to keep status up to date, link emails to
actions, etc.
<dom> ACTION-1?
<trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to create scheduling questionnaire and distribute to WG -- due 2009-09-09 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/1
fhirsch: tracker can be used either in IRC, or on the web directly
<darobin> ISSUE-4?
<trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- API Versioning -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/4
<dom> Tracker IRC documentation
darobin: there are a lot of tools, it's ok to ask questions about them, because we know it can be overwhelming at first
fhirsch: we need to keep a record of the decisoin made, and those tools help avoiding needless controversies.
<dom> Registration for DAP WG F2F at TPAC 2009 (Nov 2-3)
fhirsch: no apparent issue with weekly telecon time. So left as is
<dom> Current registrants for F2F
fhirsch: TPAC: this group is meeting. Please join us and register early.
<dom> [50$ fee supposed to be raised to 75$ on Sep 21st]
fhirsch: it's useful for the
chairs to know who's going to be there, or who's going to be on
the phone
... we might want to have a questionnaire to know that.
... but we can take that offline.
<dom> [if anyone is interested in attending the F2F by phone, let me know and I'll see if that's an option]
fhirsch: I don't have any
darobin: nope
arve: about the face to face meeting, I'll be participating on the phone
<tlr> ACTION: thomas to set up dial-in questionnaire for face-to-face [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-dap-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Set up dial-in questionnaire for face-to-face [on Thomas Roessler - due 2009-09-23].
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/DeviceAPICharter
fhirsch goes through charter
<dom> Workshop report
arve: about the f2fs. Will we try to coordinate with other WGs like webapps?
fhirsch: personally, it's up to the WG, timing, etc. It's generally a good thing to do
darobin: difficult to focus on a single WG to coordinate with, but worth investigating
arve: I'm happy with the answer
<arve> pronouciation guide for my name: ar-vë
marcin: about TPAC logistics. A person currently attend DAP or Webapps. Art Barstow is making sure it's going to be addressed
<dom> [I think we might want to consider a joint meeting with WebApps WG]
fhirsch: other conflicts exists, too
tlr: [looking at schedule]
... unlikely to be able to make major rearrangements,
unfortunately
... not sure what we can do about it.
fhirsch: chairs will do their best, but can only do so much.
<tlr> ACTION: frederick to work with Robin and Team on TPAC schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-dap-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Work with Robin and Team on TPAC schedule [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2009-09-23].
darobin explains the importance of addressing issues like accessibility, i18n, mobility and security
<Claes> I am on phone as well
darobin: the 2-implementation criterion is minimal. Better to have 2 implementations implementing *all* features
<Claes> yes, I use +33
darobin: general idea about
deliverables is to have 1 document for each API.
... requires quite a few editors, and also prioritisation, but
we can check that later
<Kangchan> ?
Kangchan: [scribe missed]
fhirsch: we could create task forces with other groups, we could add deliverables. But our first task is to make a roadmap
<Kangchan> My question is that in the WG charter, Devices in this WG is identified such as desktop computers, laptop computers, mobile internet devices (MIDs), cellular phones, etc. Is Television also one of the target devices?
<darobin> Kangchan, right, the list is not exhaustive — all target devices are relevant
<tlr> kangchan, as darobin just said on IRC, we're Any Device, Anywhere, Any Time, so this is a list of examples. Yes, TV is in scope.
fhirsch: informal dependencies
are good, so I'd like to find out who is involved in other
groups.
... about tracking and actions I'd rather not get blocked on
something someone is supposed to do and can't
... rules for Good Standing aren't that strict
darobin: good standing isn't enforced stricltly, but more important within the editors pool
fhirsch: remember that technical
discussions should happen on the public list
... minutes are also published in public
darobin: specification editors
transform WG decisions into text
... no need to go through editor work right now.
... plenty of resources on the W3C site
... we chose to have an set of editors for each API and for
policy
... we welcome more people. If you're not sure, please talk to
the chairs offline. We can assist with techniques and give you
an idea about time commitment
[scribe missed question]
darobin: not just 1 editor for all the documents, but a pool of editors.
fhirsch: different specs could move at different speeds, too
darobin: putting all APIs in 1
document would be a problem if a problem arose.
... at Last Call, if there are any issues
[??? volunteers]
fhirsch: we could use more help on the policy too
arve: noting that figuring out the pool could be done later as well
fhirsch: definitely
... although it's helpful to know early, for practical
reasons
fhirsch: as chairs it's important to know who's going to make submissions, or update them
<fhirsch> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/
fhirsch: we have contributions
listed on the home page already
... I don't believe there's a lot in the Nokia submissions on
policy. There has been an update in Bondi though
... talks about packaging, widget signing, etc. Uses webapps
spec and adds requirements. Then talks about features.
... there are 2 security areas, can't go into details, but
features let you say what things you need to do
... access and permissions associated with capabilities,
etc.
darobin: some work has started on the mailing list.
<darobin> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/open
darobin: I'd like to look quickly
at open issues
... first 4 are about API style
... Strawpoll on ISSUE-4 was unanymous but I'd like to keep
them all open
... some decisions on style will be obvious as we start
<tlr> issue-4?
<trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- API Versioning -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/4
darobin: any objections about issue 4?
[none]
<tlr> RESOLUTION: issue-4 closed
darobin: now closed.
marcin: input document will be submitted to BONDI and W3C soon (1 week)
darobin: issues 5 to 16
... we are trying avoid to go through a heavyweight requirement
gathering process
... we'll switch to heavier if lightweight fails
... I started drafting requirements for 2 examples
<darobin> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/camera/Overview.html
<darobin> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/Overview.html
darobin: would be helpful if
people would send requirement for each APIs
... by no means the documents are final
... who would like to volunteer to submit requirements?
... application configuration: nothing yet
... application launcher. [no response].
arve: how about merging the 2 issues for now and gather requirements in 1 go?
darobin: fine with that
<darobin> ACTION: arve to draft requirements for App Conf & App Launcher, possibly by getting maxf or Marcos to do it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-dap-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Draft requirements for App Conf & App Launcher, possibly by getting maxf or Marcos to do it [on Arve Bersvendsen - due 2009-09-23].
darobin: calendar API?
JK: perhaps requirements should be given to more than one person
darobin: of course, the final reqs wouldn't be from just one person
richt: was wondering about the level of reqs. Written? Mailing list posts?
darobin: just mailing list ok. Similar level to the example ones (high-level functional)
arve: look at File I/O, for instance
darobin: any takers for calendar?
[none]
... communication log? [none]
... contacts? Robin volunteers
<darobin> ACTION: robin to do requirements for contacts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-dap-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Do requirements for contacts [on Robin Berjon - due 2009-09-23].
darobin: gallery? [none]
... any other?
Don? from Intel: taking issue-14
scribe: is there a description of what those APIs are?
darobin: yes, in the charter.
Tran: how would I bring up other items about new APIs?
darobin first submit it to the list, then we'll figure out if we need a new charter
<hendry> has each editor of existing BONDI apis emailed to ask to become W3C editors?
<JonathanJ> DAP open issues: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/open
scribe: any opinions on
prioritization among specifications?
... are there any we should focus on first?
<richt> could I suggest messaging, contacts and filesystem?
[no answer on the phone]
<tlr> richt, I recommend getting on the queue
JereK, suggest Calendar, Contact, Messaging: Tasks
<dom> +1 on Calendar and Contacts
scribe: other possibility is to use smaller subgroups: multimedia, system, etc.
darobin: hearing people arguing for Calendar, Contacts, Messaging at least
richt: messaging, contact and
filesystem
... we have a lot of contribution on filesystem already
arve: filesystem needs to be given priority. There is incompatible work going on, and implementations
<darobin> RB: hearing mostly FS, Calendar, Contact, and Messaging
<wonsuk> +1 for JereK's proposal
arve: anyone wants to start
drafting suggestion for those APIs? Even if it means taking
from submitted ones?
... volunteer for FileSystem
<darobin> ACTION: arve to get the ball rolling for the FS API [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-dap-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Get the ball rolling for the FS API [on Arve Bersvendsen - due 2009-09-23].
<marcin2> Tasks + Calendar + Contacts = PIM, could we handle them as one?
marcin: would try to prioritise together PIM apis (tasks, contacts, calendar)
darobin: various existing APIs don't necessarily have the same ties
arve: we used to consider them as
1 in Opera Platform (2004-2005)
... dependencies makes implementation hard. I would treat them
as separate
darobin: we could merge them later, if we find they're very linked.
marcin: ok, just want to make sure we're using patterns consistently across those APIs
darobin: and across all of them
richt: wanted to check about how
to go forward.
... do we have evolutions planned in the charter if something
new comes along (like new APIs)
darobin: we should then discuss about rechartering, if only for IPR reasons
richt: BONDI are producing new APIs, not sure how that would fit it
darobin: can discuss later.
arve: we have to be aware of
those issues sooner than later.
... if we have a concrete list of issues requiring
rechartering, it's better to handle it now rather than in 2
years
darobin, not sure that's necessary actually
<arve> I'm about to drop off, my battery's dead
wonsuk: we need to make a wiki page for WG
<arve> +1
darobin: we have a non-wiki page. If anybody wants to contribute, we can give them CVS access
<dom> (regrets from me next week)
<darobin> bleaaargh
darobin: adjourned. kthxbai
<fhirsch> max are you able to edit minutes and send them to the members list for review?
<fhirsch> take the minutes from the html page, edit without using Word, then send as attachment to mailing list?
I don't have the setup to edit them, currently, fhirsch
<darobin> fhirsch: maxf knows not to use Word :)
I've got to check my CVS access
oh, ok.
<darobin> do HTML attachments get indexed?
with... Amaya!
<darobin> by the list archives I mean?
<darobin> what I used to do was cut and paste the text from the minutes page, and include a link to it so people could get both
+1
<fhirsch> ,text generates automatically text from web page
<darobin> yup
<ArtB> just append ",text" to the URI and you get a text version
actually, tlr, I've forgotten a lot
no worries
<darobin> just append ,timbl and send that in
<darobin> fhirsch: agreed
dom, how do I edit the minutes then?
<darobin> ACTION: Tran to take on ISSUE-14 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-dap-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Take on ISSUE-14 [on Dzung Tran - due 2009-09-23].
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