HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Aug 2009

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7373] Need to fix "If a Document or image was returned by the XMLHttpRequest API" now that the document pointer concept is gone. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0219.html> 4** [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0218.html> 4** [Bug 7375] Incorrect specification for window.postMessage()'s hand

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0220.html>

<pimpbot> planet: Jonny Axelsson: Conditional Comments in HTML5? <11http://my.opera.com/jax/blog/show.dml/4257206>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7377] New: s/DahltrÃ¶m/DahlstrÃ¶m/ <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0221.html>

<hsivonen> Hixie: awesome. Does the W3C's own pubrules checker violate the caching advice on DTDs?

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7378] New: element name case fixup table is missing two SVG1.2T entries <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0222.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7378] element name case fixup table is missing two SVG1.2T entries <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0225.html> 4** [Bug 7379] HTML5 should reference SVG1.1 as well as SVG1.2T <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0224.html> 4** [Bug 7379] New: HTML5 should reference SVG1.1 as well as SVG1.2T <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0223.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7381] Clarify default encoding wording and add some examples for non-latin locales. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0229.html> 4** [Bug 7380] Suggest heuristic detection of UTF-8 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0228.html> 4** [Bug 7381] New: Clarify default encoding wording and add some examples for non-latin locales. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6853] restore meta keywords, search engines use them <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0231.html> 4** [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0230.html>

<pimpbot> changes: "mike: added ARIA-integration version at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/aria/ - based on validator.nu HTML5+ARIA schema" (4 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0194.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7382] U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN in escaping text spans <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0233.html> 4** [Bug 7382] New: U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN in escaping text spans <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0232.html>

<anne2> MikeSmith, can I get editbugs?

<MikeSmith> anne2: yeah, I thought you had them already

<MikeSmith> will do it right now

<anne2> cheers, there was a few times I thought I'd add the NE keyword but couldn't

<anne2> never really needed it before

<MikeSmith> OK, done

<pimpbot> changes: "mike: tweaked the metainfo for the ARIA version so that that gets labeled correctly" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0196.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7384] New: editorial: " (either an HTMLImageElement or an HTMLCanvasElement)" is missing HTMLVideoElement <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0235.html> 4** [Bug 7383] New: drawImage(video) and createPattern(video) should say that the aspect-ratio-corrected dimensions must be used <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0234.html>

<Stevef> zcorpan: is http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements up to date?

<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Elements and Attributes (at simon.html5.org)

<anne2> last updated August 5

<anne2> should be pretty accurate

<Lachy> yeah, it looks accurate. The last elements dropped from HTML5 were datagrid and bb, and they're both gone from the list

<Stevef> ok thanks

<anne2> more up to date than html5-diff

<anne2> should prolly fix that before pubtime

<ed_work> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#dom-context-2d-drawimage wish that was more open for other graphic sources, e.g SVGImageElement (similar to HTMLImageElement), and SVGSVGElement for more interesting cases

<pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)

<anne2> ed_work, I proposed that

<anne2> ed_work, the response was that allowing SVG was in effect allowing anything due to <foreignObject>

<anne2> ed_work, I was not entirely convinced, but decided not to argue it further at the time

<ed_work> anne2: don't see how allowing e.g the svg:video and svg:image elements to fetch their references and load them similarly to html:image and html:video is harmful

<ed_work> and it would be fine by me to not allow <foreignObject> to draw anything if rendered through drawImage

<anne2> I don't think it's being seen as harmful

<hsivonen> ed_work: is there a use case for SVGImageElement and SVGVideoElement drawing onto canvas that isn't already addressed by the corresponding HTML elements?

<anne2> I think the issue was perceived too big to tackle with plug-ins, etc.

<anne2> CSS, security, etc.

<hsivonen> Gecko can already draw a whole window onto canvas, no?

<hsivonen> but only with chrome privs

<hsivonen> the whole thing is security-tainted basically

<anne2> hsivonen, I'm not sure if plug-ins work correctly there and figuring out security for the Web is definitely hard

<anne2> hsivonen, probably you'd have to forbid extracting anything from the <canvas> at that point, but that'd be a shame

<ed_work> hsivonen: well, I don't see a point in explicitly forbidding those cases (throwing exceptions that is), why should I have to duplicate my elements if I happened to do most of an app in svg?

<hsivonen> ed_work: supporting those cases makes sense from Web dev point of view

<hsivonen> seems to add spec & browser complexity, though

<ed_work> for video and image? complex to fetch the right url and load it? come on ;)

<anne2> complex to support more element types that work differently with respect to sizing?

<anne2> complex to support additional elements in general

<hsivonen> sigh. script execution and parsing has ended up as being even more intertwingled than I though

<DanC> re "Does the W3C's own pubrules checker violate the caching advice on DTDs?" quite possibly; the advice is newer than the checker. I suggest reporting the problem to spec-prod@w3.org.

<DanC> I seem to recall that Ian Jacobs said the integration with patent policy database stuff means that the offline checker is no longer supported. :-/

<pimpbot> planet: WebSocket for HTML5 <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1253683/websocket-for-html5>

<DanC> I haven't read the "... text alternatives ..." thread; anybody care to nominate a few messages that summarize the thread?

<hsivonen> DanC: I suggest http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1015.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1046.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: feedback requested on WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 document from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<DanC> thanks

<Julian> DanC, +1 (your comment on "valid URL" in HTML5)

<anne2> might make sense if web addresses was actually worked on :/

<DanC> in what way is it not actually worked on?

<Julian> Yes, but I think these issues are orthogonal

<Julian> using the term "URL" in the spec for things that aren't URLs is just confusing

<anne2> DanC, it's been silent over a month with respect to comments Hixie and I left on public-iri

<anne2> not over, sorry, for a month

<DanC> hmm... not even an acknowledgement of the comments? I know larry is working on that draft; he calls me about it from time to time

<anne2> nada

<DanC> :-/

<anne2> haven't received replies to my web linking or whatever it's called today either, but did get an acknowledgment from mnot

<Julian> Anne, trying to recall: did you raise anything Hixie didn't later on...?

<DanC> anne2, is your month old comment this request for diffs? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2009Jul/0013.html or are there others from you?

<pimpbot> Title: [draft-duerst-iri-bis-06] differences from HTML5 algorithm from Anne van Kesteren on 2009-07-23 (public-iri@w3.org from July 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<DanC> oh... I see others

<anne2> there's others

<anne2> Julian, no idea

<hsivonen> Julian, DanC: I think the non-silly thing to do would be making Web Addresses update RFC 3986 so that URL would mean the right thing

<DanC> I wonder what's the process for updating a full IETF standard.

<DanC> it sorta comes down to a question of whether "../xyz" is an appropriate answer to "hurl me an url?"

<Julian> henri, I think it's a terrible idea.

<Julian> DanC, I don't it ever has been done before.

<hsivonen> Julian: why is making de jure terminology match actual usage a terrible idea?

<Julian> Henri, it only matches actual usage in some places.

<hsivonen> I think it's normal usage to call "../xyz" a "relative URL"

<Julian> Please stop assuming that it's all about those four browsers.

<DanC> hsivonen, are you sure people call ".../xyz" an URL? It's not at all clear to me.

<Julian> it used to be called relative URI in RFC 2396.

<Julian> But a "relative URI" is not a "URI2

<DanC> let's see... wikipedia has googlemark on "url" ...

<Julian> Thus RFC 3986 changed to call it a relative reference

<Julian> you can't put IRIs nor whitespace on the wire in HTTP

<hsivonen> Julian: fwiw, I don't mean it's about the four browsers. I mean it's about all the people out there who think they know what a URL is.

<Julian> (IRIs containing non-ASCII characters)

<anne2> Julian, how does terminology usage have anything to do with "those four browsers"?

<DanC> looks like the "experts" have had a little too much influence on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Locator . that article is full of standards-speak, so doesn't really help

<pimpbot> Title: Uniform Resource Locator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

<hsivonen> fwiw, Gecko calls it nsIURI

<Julian> do you really think there'll be *less* confusion by changing what URL/URI means?

<hsivonen> which is neither URL nor IRI

<DanC> agreed, "it's about all the people out there who think they know what a URL is."

<anne2> DanC, it does mention "In popular usage and in many technical documents and verbal discussions it is often incorrectly used as a synonym for URI."

<anne2> which would supports hsivonen's point

<DanC> huh? it would support my point, which is that "../xyz" is not a URL

<Julian> URL vs URI isn't significant

<hsivonen> people who can read a "URL" on the side of a bus and type it to an address bar and people who author links with "URLs" far outnumber RFC lawyers

<Julian> URI vs IRI vs "Web Address" is

<Julian> URI and URL share the same syntax

<Julian> but those people do not read the HTML spec

<anne2> DanC, ah, I was assuming that Wikipedia would not be that smart, but maybe it is :)

<hsivonen> you need to munge a URL into a URI in order to hand it off to an ASCII-only protocol

<anne2> DanC, I have never really encountered anyone other than a few standards people that knew that URI only includes absolute URIs

<DanC> I suppose it depends on context, somewhat. If you ask them "what goes in an href attribute?" they'd say sure, "../xyz" is fine, but...

<DanC> if they said "hurl me an url" and you replied with "../xyz", they'd look at you funny

<hsivonen> you put an "absolute URL" in the address bar. you can put a "relative URL" in href

<DanC> meanwhile, there's the question of whether the HTML 5 spec is really meant for joe-on-the-street. It's a standards document, after all, and it's aimed at the same audience as the HTTP and URI specs, so it ought to be reasonably consistent with them.

<hsivonen> it's also aimed at people who write HTML tutorials

<hsivonen> and at enlightened designers

<hsivonen> it's not just for HTTP hackers

<hsivonen> I'd expect the concept to remain visible even if you hide implementation-specific stuff

<anne2> if we could call it IRI I suppose that'd be fine too

<anne2> but I suspect it'd have to be something silly like IRI reference

<hsivonen> I think "Web address" is better than IRI

<hsivonen> URI, IRI and LEIRI are all RFC lawyer terms

<Julian> I still have't given up on making LEIRIs and Web Addresses the same thing. But maybe that's just me.

<hsivonen> trying to kill a wildly successful term like URL (as opposed to updating the spec to match the success)

<hsivonen> is on terminology level similar to trying to kill a wildly successful format like HTML

<hsivonen> on the technology level instead of updating it

<DanC> I tried to make that point at the time the URI spec was in development, hsivonen (i.e. "let's just use URL, rather than URI") but I lost.

<anne2> Julian, yeah, makes not too much sense that they're different

<anne2> Julian, especially if the encoding flag is UTF-8 unless explicitly stated otherwise

<DanC> updating the standard definition of URL has some merit; I hope you'll float the idea in mail, hsivonen . it's more work than I want to contemplate, so I'm not interested to advocate it

<Julian> DanC, I don't think we're discussing URL vs URI

<DanC> we're discussing whether "../xyz" is a URL

<hsivonen> Julian: I want references to LEIRIs to be replaced with references to Web addresses / URLs, too

<DanC> both wikipedia and the java API docs are inconsistent. They say "every URL starts with scheme:" and then they say "there are also relative URLs"

<DanC> "LEIRI" is... well... I find it hard to take seriously.

<Julian> The Java API docs are written in terms of RFC2396 (or earlier) and should be fixed.

<DanC> 3rd google hit for "URL" says they all start with scheme: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/U/URL.html

<pimpbot> Title: What is URL? - A Word Definition From the Webopedia Computer Dictionary (at www.webopedia.com)

<DanC> w3schools doesn't take a hard line either way... http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_url.asp it uses a different term for relative addresses, though

<pimpbot> Title: HTML URL's (at www.w3schools.com)

<Julian> DanC, I think what's being discussed is whether things like "http://example.com/foo/bar/ä ö ü ß" are URLs or URIs. They are not, and never will be.

<DanC> this one clearly says an URL is whatever goes in an href http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/quicklist.html

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Quick List - HTML Code Tutorial (at www.htmlcodetutorial.com)

<DanC> well, that too, Julian. "never will be"? I don't see how we can be certain of that.

<Julian> DanC, it would break lots of specs that rely on certain qualities of URIs

<Julian> Such as being ASCII only, and not containing whitespace

<DanC> yes, there would be a cost to updating all the relevant specs

<Julian> needless additional confusion

<anne2> I don't think anybody was suggesting to change the definition of URI

<anne2> unless it's broken somehow I suppose

<Julian> I totally agree that people are confused today, but changing what URI or URL means IMHO will make things worse not better

<Julian> So what's the proposal then?

<DanC> this tutorial uses URLs only for things that start with scheme: http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/tut8a.html http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/tut8b.html

<pimpbot> Title: 8a. Linking to Local Files (at www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu)

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7386] New: SharedWorkerGlobalScope <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0236.html>

<DanC> I understood hsivonen's proposal to be: in the new IRI spec, redefine URL to be the same as what it currently calls "web address"

<anne2> Julian, to have URL mean the thing it means in HTML5

<anne2> DanC, me too

<Julian> Anne, URL or valid URL?

<anne2> the latter is a subset, so the former

<Julian> so make it a superset of IRI, but leave URI alone?

<anne2> yes

<Julian> I don#t think that's a good idea.

<anne2> you already said that

<Julian> but last time I said it I was thinking you were proposing something else :-)

<annevk> fair enough

<annevk> I still think it's a great idea

<DanC> updating the defintion of URL has some merit, but it's a ton of work to do all the relevant IETF coordination. that's why Roy has said it'll never happen (or words to that effect)

<DanC> standards docs aren't as malleable as street-speak

<DanC> there's an argument that the IETF did an open call for participation and standardized the term, and now the community is obliged to stick with it.

<annevk> seems Roy doesn't really like what we do anyway so I wouldn't be surprised

<DanC> you could give him the benefit of the doubt that there's more than "I don't like what you do" behind his positions, annevk

<annevk> his style of flaming and not elaborating much might have put me off a little

<DanC> yes, there is that

<Dashiva> DanC: There's also the argument that most of the people using URL haven't even heard of the IETF :)

<DanC> but they depend on the proper working of lots of IETF products

<Dashiva> Working is independent from naming, though

<kliehm> trackbot, status?

<DanC> not entirely... confusing engineers working with both HTML and HTTP is a recipe for bugs

<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 20 August 2009

<scribe> scribe: cyns

Issue-56/Action-125 urls-webarch / Julian Reschke

<DanC> action-125?

<trackbot> ACTION-125 -- Julian Reschke to coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues -- due 2009-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/125

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-125 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<MikeSmith> scribenick: cyns

julian: it think that can be closed. action is done

connolly: I have made a proposal.

<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1052.html

<pimpbot> Title: change "URL" to "web address" throughout the HTML 5 spec (Issue-56 urls-webarch) from Dan Connolly on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

sam: how do we want to procede

connolly: editorial suggestion. need to hear from the editor. Someone can take an action to ping him. also argument against, but not on list.

sam: you could do a bug report. Ian responds to thme.

connolly: I sent to list, per charter.

sam: editor may not take suggestion. Does not close the issue. I will get with Ian offline, leave status as is.

<DanC> close action-125

close julian's action.

<trackbot> ACTION-125 Coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues closed

Issue-4/Action-108 html-versioning / Larry Masinter

sam: Larry is not on the call. I will get with him to get a new date.

Issue-13/Action-86 handling-http-401-status / Julian Reschke

sam: Julian, are you ok with closing?

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7387] New: small element should have same content model as a, ins, del <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0237.html>

<MikeSmith> kemp

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1053.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: ISSUE-13: suggest closing from John Kemp on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

Julian: I just got mail from John Kemp, he was against closing. haven't read it yet. want to leave open a few days.

Issue-32/Action-128 table-summary / Cynthia Shelly

<rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html

<pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)

<DanC> (folks that want drafts discussed in telcons will please mail pointers a day or 2 in advance)

<rubys> cyns: I created a draft which puts back the summary text from HTML 4, and to add examples from Matt May's book, and to add some suggestions

<rubys> cyns: I think this is a reasonable compromise, but I'm certain that there are others that don't, but I would appreciate feedback.

<rubys> joe: I think it is a good compromise

<rubys> danc: people will want to know why

<rubys> ACTION: cynthia to send draft to the list, due in three weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Send draft to the list, due in three weeks [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-08-27].

<DanC> ACTION-136: draft regarding summary, in particular

<trackbot> ACTION-136 Send draft to the list, due in three weeks notes added

<rubys> note: action 136 is to be assigned to Matt May

Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing / Cynthia Shelly

Steve Faulkner: taking it to PF for further discussion on Monday.

<rubys> ACTION: stevenf to produce a matrix based on Henri's work, due: 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - stevenf

Steve Faulkner: action is to produce a matrix based (loosely) on what Henri has done.

Issue-54/Action-103 doctype-legacy-compat / Julian Reschke

<DanC> action-103?

<trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Julian Reschke to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-08-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

Julian: pinged J. Holsten. He published a new draft for URI scheme a few days ago. On track to be finished.

there are no technical changes, correct? No test cases you expect to change from pass to fail?

Julian: no, but there is a reference to the HTML 5 spec.

connolly: maybe we should make this 'pending review' since we're waiting for people?

sam: ok with that with new date.

Julian: 2 weeks.

Issue-74/Action-133 canvas-accessibility / Richard Schwerdtfeger

(sorry dan)

<DanC> np

<DanC> just use DanC if it's easier

<Stevef> cyns:meeting set up for friday, tomorrow

<Stevef> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementCanvas#head-a3a47c8de8c3207a1a646382ae8e4e131768e6dd

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/AddedElementCanvas - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

<Stevef> Expanding on the DOM concept with ARIA and support for Platform Accessibility APIs

richard is actively seeking volunteers

Issue-41/Action-97 decentralized-extensibility / Chris Wilson

<Laura> Canvas on PF HTML Caucus Agenda, 14:00Z Friday 21 August http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2009Aug/0180.html

<pimpbot> Title: PF HTML Caucus Agenda, 14:00Z Friday 21 August from Janina Sajka on 2009-08-19 (wai-xtech@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

Sam: agreed on current status. any comments?

Adrian: trying to put together a proposal, looking at compat with what we have in IE.

raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak

Sam: list of issues proposed for closure.
... I heard 10, 11, 13 to be left open?
... 10 is HTML 5 integration, 11 is default encoding, 13 is HB 401 status

Sean: Want to keep open 9, haven't looked at 6

<DanC> (do we have actions for 10, 11, and 13? that would be handy, though I suppose not critical)

Doug: 6 is about syntax?

Dan: 6 is about whether we do video and audio at all

Doug: close it then

<mjs> Julian said he is ok with closing 13

<annevk> ?ISSUE-10

<DanC> (I don't see "integration" in issue 10; that seems to be about syntax)

<DanC> issue-10?

<trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/10

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-10 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<Julian> mjs, there's new mail from John Kemp we need to digest

Doug: 10 is about SMIL, Dick Bolterman wants to follow up on 9

<mjs> ISSUE-10, the action is for the SMIL WG to review

Sean: object supports param, which SMIL needs, video and audio don't have

why does SMIL need param

<mjs> Julian: do you understand what his comments enough to propose a spec change?

<mjs> er, sorry, s/:/,/

<Julian> mjs, the mail just came in, so I didn't have time to process it; will do later today

Sean: SMIL has extensibility like object, needed for codecs, different codecs need different attributes

anne the way we expect it to work is that the browser does the mapping.

Sean: API isn't robust enough. For example, no way to switch captions on and off

annevk right, browser should do that

<shepazu> s/[speaker]/anne:/

Sean: If you want author to be able to do it from script, need param

<MikeSmith> this sounds like a discussion that also needs to get documented on the list

Sean: another example would be multiple audio streams

Anne: API is intentionallly small. Send to list for discussion?

Sean: ok

Doug: is this issue 10?

Sean: keep 6, 9 and 10 open until some SMIL people are on the call.

<MikeSmith> action-135?

<trackbot> ACTION-135 -- Michael(tm) Smith to seek review from Dick Bulterman -- due 2009-08-27 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/135

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-135 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

Doug: bring Dick Bulterman, SMIL chair, onto call after he's back from vacation.

<mjs> SMIL people didn't object to closing 6 or 9

Sean: yes, he'd know how it's supposed to work.

<mjs> they only asked to keep 10 open pending their review

Connolly: agree about 6 but maybe not 9

<DanC> I agree about 6, mjs, but not so sure about 9... heard some sentiment for keeping it open too

<mjs> DanC, I don't see any replies to my email about issue-9

<shepazu> ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml

<mjs> DanC, did I miss something?

<DanC> yes, you missed discussion in this telcon

<rubys> people have asked to keep 6, 9, 11, 13, 37 open

<rubys> 10 too

<annevk> maybe we should not bothering closing issues

<annevk> seems to just cause a bunch of overhead...

<shepazu> SVG WG would like to keep open ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml, since there are open questions beyond just parsing

<mjs> could you ask the people who object to closing issue-6 or issue-9 to send email please, or do so on their behalf?

<DanC> 6?

<annevk> issue-6?

<trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Pros and cons of keeping video and audio in the scope of the HTML working group -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/6

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-6 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<mjs> I saw the objections on 10, 11, 13, and 37

Dan: why 6?

Sean: title is about whether to do it at all, but there's a bunch of stuff about whether to use object, which is still open.

Doug: rename?

Sam: make new one?

Doug: has lots of links and stuff, difficult to reproduce. I'll remane it.

Anne: are you suggesting using object instead?

<mjs> is anyone going to make a concrete proposal to remove <video> and <audio> in favor of <object>?

Sean: use same data model as object

<annevk> mjs, are you dialed in?

<mjs> no

Doug: rename to issue: content model of video?

<mjs> I can dial in if necessary

<annevk> mjs, what I'm hearing is changing the content model of <video> and <audio> to <object> so that it has <param> and can do SMIL like stuff

<annevk> mjs, apparently in SMIL you have to do some kind of per-codec API

<mjs> annevk, that would seem to be in scope of issue-10

Dan: that looses the orig issue

<mjs> annevk, issue-6 is about whether to have <video>/<audio> at all

Sam: create new issue for content model (missing params) with link to 6

<annevk> mjs, I just mentioned your comments

Anne: is content model covered under 10?

Dan: yes, like that idea

Sam: close 6?

<DanC> +1 close 6, track object stuff under 10

Sean: no objection, as long as we capture under 10

<DanC> issue-10: note discussion 20 Aug of <object param> interaction

<trackbot> ISSUE-10 how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? notes added

<annevk> mjs, yay, one issue less

<rubys> keep 9, 10, 11, 13, 37 open?

Sam: close all other issues?
... no objections. close all other issues from Maceij's list.
... if you find an error, bring it up on the list.
... Michael Cooper on the call?

<mjs> (I'd still like to hear the actual objection on issue-9 at some point)

<mjs> (yay less issues)

<MichaelC> HTML task force: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force (at www.w3.org)

Michael: main concern last week was setting up yet another channel for communication.

<annevk> mjs, I guess 9/10 is the same thing

<rubys> annevk: i thought 9 was captions, and 10 was params

Michael: goal to have a place for focused discussion, joint place for discussion.

<mjs> 9 isn't about captions, at least that wasn't the original intent

<annevk> rubys, 9 says it is about synchronization

<mjs> 9 is about syncing 2 videos so they play in lockstep, and stuff like that

Michale: use HTML list with [a11y] prefix in subject

<DanC> close ISSUE-5: button-type-radio ISSUE-12: test-case-file-names ISSUE-16: offline-applications-sql ISSUE-17: media-queries-tab-preprocessing ISSUE-20: table-headers ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets ISSUE-28: http-mime-override ISSUE-34: commonality ISSUE-36 - client-side-storage-sql ISSUE-38 - style-attr-syntax ISSUE-43: client-side image maps <- I'm pretty sure that's (mjs's suggestions - 9, 10, 11, 13, 37)

<mjs> that was why cwilso originally raised it

Michael: on IRC use #pf-html

<annevk> s/[???]/#pf-html/

<mjs> DanC, looks right to me

cyns: concern about using public HTML list. It's intimidating for many people to post there, so some communication is happening on private channels.

<Laura> Current W3C HTML WG Email Lists: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/EmailLists - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

Doug: Having specialized sub lists can reduce traffic, make people feel safer to post.

Anne: I don't like overhead of having to know which list to pick.

Doug: Anne, I understand why you say this, but you're a person who is doing this full time. For you, not an issue to sort through all the mails. For people who are jsut trying to participate in a very part time way (15-20% of their time, or less), its easier to manage, and worth the overhead.

Anne: not really convinced.

Doug: I've heard 5 other people chime in.

<Laura> wai-xtech mailing list is for ensuring accessibility considerations are taken into account in all specifications produced by the W3C

<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists#head-54b24a97d673114ab597cae2d049a31f8c0c28cc

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/EmailLists - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

Anne: I heard some desire for another list for PF, and ... I don't know.

Rich: I follow several other lists. but, I have 1500 posts over the last week from HTML. A separate list will make it easier for me.

<hober> Most mail clients allow you to filter mail with [a11y] separately, so it shouldn't be an issue to have it all on public-html

Anne: is it really needed? I ahven't seen the private lists. I don't think it's a good idea, but if there are more people who think it is, ok, do it.

<Laura> Why not use both wai-xtech and public-html ?

Anne: assume most of the "bad idea" people are not on the call.

Sam: take to the list. Though that's a problem, since the people asking for this are not able to keep up with that list.

[speaker] why not do a poll?

Sam: objections to a poll?
... no objections. I'll set up a poll.

<hober> is the poll "should we have this TF at all?" or "we're having this TF, where should it conduct its business?"

Michael: could we approve the task force now, and work out the communication channel later?

Dan: we're supposed to not make decisions without giving people time to partcipate asynchronously (in HTML)

anne: can the task force work it out for themselves?

Michael: start by using html or xtech, and figure out what list to use there.

Sam: We've had a proposal to create HTML Accessiblity Task Force. Only objections we've heard were to the communications channel. Those issues resolved.

Dan: Dave Singer objected to the whole idea last week.

Sam: anyone remember his objection?

<mjs> I also objected to the whole idea last week

Dan: IP and...

<hober> I'm not crazy about the idea

<DanC> "dsinger: and which IPR realm would it work under? [not sure I scribed that right]" -- http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html#item05

<annevk> mjs, what's the objection?

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 13 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)

<Laura> Maybe a question on the poll to ask people if they are interested in participation? (6 to 8 hours per month)

<DanC> "dsinger: there are also governance issues... would the TF be advisory? it couldn't make binding decisions because it's not the actual WG"

<Laura> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force#participation

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force (at www.w3.org)

Michael: I don't remember him saying that, but it's covered under charters for respective groups

Sam: will follow up with people objecting, to make sure we've ok.

<mjs> and I don't think it's been proposed on public-html at all, so we don't know if non-phone participants have objections

Sam: need to follow up, no decision on task force.
... will follow up with Maceij. It has been in two meeting notices on the announce list.

<mjs> annevk, same as Dave Singer's + need to make sure information gets back to the full HTML WG (using public-html would address the last of these)

Michael: Sorry I didn't think to send it to HTML Public list, not just announce list.
... communication style list.

Sam: minutes go to public list.
... at the end of agenda. other issues?

<mjs> I think the suggestion should go to public-html with a clearly identifiable subject line (much as DanC and rubys suggested for closing issues)

Doug: Since I'm on the phone... What's the best way to coordinate on SVG issues. What does the HTML group need SVG group to do? What can I take back to SVG? What should we be doing to drive integration issues.

<mjs> Doug, see my reply to Cameron - SVG WG should decide what things are specific issues, on top of what I already filed as bugs

Doug: For example, foreign object allows use of HTML content. Deliberately left it vaugue, because we didn't think it our place to describe what HTML should do. While we don't want to step on toes, we don't want it to fall through the cracks.

<mjs> Doug, and decide whether bugzilla bugs or ISSUEs should be filed

Sam: So, you have cross-group issues that haven't been sent to list?
... mailing list, bug reports, or spec text

<mjs> shepazu, I think what HTML does in foreignObject is mainly a CSS/SVG integration issue

Doug: don't know if these issues should be handled by SVG or HTML

<mjs> (same as what <svg> in HTML does layout-wise)

Sam: send to list.
... meeting ajourned.

- DRAFT -

HTML Weekly Teleconference

20 Aug 2009

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