06 Aug 2009

See also: IRC log


Jan, Jim, Simon, Henny, Kford, Mark, Kim



zakim list agenda

Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?

JALLAN: Overall opinions of HTMl5 draft.

Simon: I had read it before, followed lots of discussion.

JAN: Haven't had a chance to review yet.

Jim: bringing up Simon's comments.

Simon: I think what we are saying and what others are saying with respect to access keys might be a bit difficult.

<scribe> Scribe: KFord

Simon's mail on concerns is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0035.html

Mark: Looking at WAI ARIA. Within the user agent we can identify widgets.

<AllanJ> KF: ARIA role mapping to Accessibility API exits

<AllanJ> ...if authro doesnot define all behaviors in the script, there is nothing the UA can do.

<AllanJ> MH: how does UA repair, or preempt mapping

<AllanJ> KF: Keyboard behaviors are a problem with ARIA and developers

Henny: Saw some comments on lists that the intent is there to do some ARIA in HTML5 but not much action yet.

<AllanJ> HS: discussion on lists for ARIA in HTML5, intent is to include it

Jim: Restating Mark's idea of user agent mapping keys to ARIA roles.

Kim: How viable is that?

Mark: Brings up various technical issues like whgat happens when elements of item are not defined.


<AllanJ> KF: Question: intrigued by Mark's suggestion. Could HTML 5 require that a specific control have x semantics

Kim: Are there ways to handle things if a developer leaves something out?

Simon: Browsers do handle certain errors today for missing sections of tags and such.

Kim: We try to get people to do things with speech in ways that don't use the mouse if possible.
... What works better with speech is not having to find the mouse but rather being able to say I want to put the mouse in location x.

<AllanJ> Discussion of Drag-and-drop and accessibility

Kim: If you had an absolute pointing tablet this is easier.

kford: Gave example of iPhone and touch being absolute.

Jim: I was reading in HTML 5 on the drag stuff.
... They kind of talk about user agents without pointing devices and saying the user would need to be able to say what they want to drag.

Kim: Talked about Dragon Naturally Speaking approach where you need to indicate drop target first.

Jim: One thing we can take to WAI is concerns about keyboard, script, AJAX and such. Isn't necessarily specific to HTML5 but problem continues to grow.

Simon: Expressed concern over HTML5 hidden data.

<AllanJ> KF: DOM should get updated when mutation event fires

<AllanJ> SH: Decision to fire is at UA discretion. Concern is how does UA decide appropriate firing of event, might be different for different device users or AT users

Jim: A couple of items I noticed that said they were violations.

<AllanJ> These requirements are a willful violation of the XPath 1.0 specification, motivated by desire to have implementations be compatible with legacy content while still supporting the changes that this specification introduces to HTML regarding which namespace is used for HTML elements. [XPATH10]

Jim: Talked about xpath.
... I looked at user agent behaviors.
... Whole thing is about how things should interact with the DOM. Most seemed pretty reasonable.
... A couple of issues.
... HTML5 definition of plugin is different from ours. They don't define a method of interacting. This is supposed to be to the user agent or platform.

HTML5 definition for plugin.

2.1.4 Plugins

The term plugin is used to mean any content handler for Web content types that are either not supported by the user agent natively or that do not expose a DOM, which supports rendering the content as part of the user agent's interface.

Jim: Also looked at iframe element and attribute called sandbox.
... Sandbox sets behavior such as allowing the iframe to behave like a full browser.

Sandbox definition:

The sandbox attribute, when specified, enables a set of extra restrictions on any content hosted by the iframe. Its value must be an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens. The allowed values are allow-same-origin, allow-forms, and allow-scripts. When the attribute is set, the content is treated as being from a unique origin, forms and scripts are disabled, links are prevented from targeting other browsing contexts, and plugins are disabled. The allow-same-or

Kim: User needs to be in control, they get confused when they set things and then they don't work.

<AllanJ> ACTION: JAllan to write SC for user override sandbox attribute in Iframe [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Write SC for user override sandbox attribute in Iframe [on Jim Allan - due 2009-08-13].

Jim: My other concern is how many other attributes like this are there floating around? How do we generalize this?

Kim: If you had a way to alert the user about things that the site wants to override this could help.

<AllanJ> KF: UA override, how to define list.

<AllanJ> ...lots of things could be included.

<AllanJ> ...pop-ups as an example. Authors want them, users block them. if user initiated then ok.

<AllanJ> ...User needs an intelligent way to set overrides, what it does, what can I effect, what will be the results.

Jim: HTML 5 has concept of fallback content. Gives example from canvas.
... I think we have that covered from our cascade of alternatives.
... Have concerns around datagrid and labels, images and such.
... Need to form these thoughts further.

zakim close item 2

Looking at mail from Simon. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0036.html

Now talking about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0037.html

<AllanJ> SH: is there an API or bridge between javascript and platform Accessibility API

<AllanJ> KF: ARIA helps some (with roles)

<AllanJ> SH: is there a validity checker or something for accessible Javascript?

<AllanJ> KF: ARIA attempts to put semantics and mapping to accessibility API

<AllanJ> ...for javascript widgets

<AllanJ> JR: Java bridge, is a small set of java widgets that are passed to the platform AAPI.

<AllanJ> ...somebody declared a 'winner' for what the specific Java widget set would be.

<mth> http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/

<sharper> Marcos Cáceres, Opera Software ASA

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: JAllan to write SC for user override sandbox attribute in Iframe [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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People with action items: jallan

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