See also: IRC log
<jgraham> *irc
<rubys1> trackbot, start call
<trackbot> Sorry, rubys1, I don't understand 'trackbot, start call'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
<pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
<rubys1> trackbot, start telcon
<trackbot> Date: 06 August 2009
<dsinger> zakim [apple] has dsinger
<mjs> I'm on - I think
<Lachy> I guess I must be [IPcaller]
<Lachy> oh, maybe not
<mjs> it's awful quiet on the call
<dsinger> ?
<kliehm> I'm on the phone, too, should be +49 (or VOIP)
<Lachy> no, I dropped off. calling back
<kliehm> zakim aabb is mjs
<scribe> scribe: Julian
<rubys> issue-35
<rubys> issue-35?
<trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Need to define processing requirements for aria states and properties when used in html -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/35
<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-35 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/35
cynthia: making progress, FPWD
this month planned
... working on HTML mappings
<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0279.html
<pimpbot> Title: Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-05 from Ian Hickson on 2009-08-05 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
cynthia: report again in 3..4 weeks
rubys: hixie asked for specific feedback
cynthia: differences in WG
process
... do not respond before all comments are processed
... ETA 3..4 months
... explains the HTML vs ARIA mapping issue
SteveF: (misssed this)
mjs: explains hixie's comments
<DanC> I'm interested to see ARIA integrated by reference too, though it's not clear to me how that would work
mjs: ...inconsistent state between HTML and ARIA semantics... make non-conforming?
<jgraham> To integrate it by reference it would need to define all the areas of overlap between aria semantics and native semantics
mjs: ARIA currently says host
language can't override
... q
<mjs> to type my remarks into the record:
SteveF: promises feedback next week
<mjs> 1) What Ian specifically wants is to make inconsistent states between native markup and ARIA roles/properties noncomforming - right now ARIA doesn't let a host language do that
Murray: asks for mechanism to describe conformance
<mjs> 2) (from my earlier remarks) we should ask PFWG to expedite processing of this specific comment
masinter: inclusion vs reference
of ARIA
... motivation for the current plan
<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#host_lang_impl
<pimpbot> Title: Accessible Rich Internet Applications (WAI-ARIA) 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
<kliehm> Murray, the ARIA DTD extends the HTML DTD, but doesn't prohibit any inconsistencies.
<masinter> So I heard Sam say that he had not heard of anybody advocating inclusion of ARIA rather than reference to the ARIA spec
<jgraham> I assume the issue is not includion vs reference so much as how much HTML needs to say about the mapping between native semantics and aria semantics
<jgraham> i.e. I assume no one is proposing duplicating aria in HTML
<annevk> Why does ARIA override?
<masinter> i'm doing a text search on ARIA in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
<pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
stevef: not sure whether there's a problem with the current draft
<DanC> I think mjs said something about a problem with WAI ARIA not allowing host languages to set conformance requirements; steve can't find any such problem in a current draft
<mjs> can someone provide a link to the current editor's draft?
<DanC> again, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#host_lang_impl
<pimpbot> Title: Accessible Rich Internet Applications (WAI-ARIA) 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
<rubys> stevef would like ian to reconfirm that he still has an issue with the current draft
<annevk> also, things like " assistive technology SHOULD assign preference to the WAI-ARIA feature" seem incorrect, given that the browser tells something to the assistive technology, not the other way around
<DanC> "The appearance of the name literal of any concrete WAI-ARIA role (see section 7.3.2) as one of these substrings MUST NOT in and of itself make the attribute value illegal in the host-language syntax" -- 6.1.1. Role Attribute
<jgraham> (as a concrete example I believe the issue is things like <input type=radio role=checkbox>
<jgraham> )
<annevk> Anne: wouldn't it be better to wait until ARIA is out of LC?
<DanC> mjs, you seem to be reading a comment from hixie; pointer, please?
<annevk> Maciej: that would delay it too much
<kliehm> I can imagine designers who want a radio button to *look* like a checkbox, so that's no contradiction then.
rubys: pushing back one week
<mjs> DanC, I followed the link from what rubys linked earlier: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/comments/details?comment_id=267
<pimpbot> Title: Comment details - PFWG Public Comments (at www.w3.org)
<rubys> issue-32?
<trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<DanC> (I concur with a point dbaron made: having groups talk to each other with low latency isn't as good as having individuals get together and talk. There's a time for formal group-to-group stuff, but it should be the exception, not the rule)
murray: great compromise
... thanks to the people involved
<annevk> Julian: from my point of view the spec is far away from expressing consensus
<annevk> Julian: I would vote for John's draft
julian: not satisfied with the compromise
<masinter> I agree with Julian, FWIW
<DanC> (I continue to see shelley object, but I gather she's already made her argument and doesn't feel a need to repeat it. Does anybody have a pointer to something that captures her concerns?)
mjs: asks people to look at the text,. avoiding a vote
<masinter> I think it is astounding how much debate it took to get this far, and it makes me querstion whether the group is ready to reach last call on schedule
<Laura> John's recap saying table summary is an open question:
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0286.html
<pimpbot> Title: Movement on summary from John Foliot on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
mjs: explains the "should"
<Laura> Steve saying the @summary text is adequate for now but doesn't see it making last call.
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0302.html
<pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Steven Faulkner on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
<Laura> Me asking to have summary in the draft marked as open. Sam previously said it is the proper way to handle it.
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0315.html
<pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Laura Carlson on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
<Laura> Sam saying @summary is "well on its way" to being closed.
<jgraham> FWIW I don't see any substantial change from the current text taking us closer to a maxima of acceptability
<Laura> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/06/Disappearing-Silverware
<pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Disappearing Silverware (at intertwingly.net)
<Laura> Shelley calling it "painting people into a corner".
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0317.html
<pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Shelley Powers on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
<Laura> Leif suggesting that we should have Sam's support for *keeping* it marked as an open.
<masinter> example of difficulties of coming to consensus on authoring conformance requirements
mjs: says it's not obsolete (?)
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0319.html
<pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Leif Halvard Silli on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
masinter: issue not
addressed
... general underlying problem with conformance
requirements
<pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Shelley Powers on 2009-08-04 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
masinter: discouraged by compromise and time spent on it
Matt_May: some of the
uncontroversial
... there are also design considerations
... "obsolete, but conforming" will cause more
discussions
... keep the advice, but no warning needed
I agree with Matt was saying
<cshelly> +1
<annevk> +1
dsinger: explains that there's a meta-problem behind @summary
<annevk> (to dsinger)
mjs: asks masinter to clarify his concern
masinter: see Julian's mail
<DanC> (+1 to what, cshelly and annevk?)
<annevk> (I mentioned that in my next line, DanC)
<cshelly> +1 to dsinger
<rubys> I believe that they were +1'ing the notion of the chairs getting together and working out the process (dsinger's comment)
<DanC> tx
murray: repeats that helping
access. for tables is important
... don't prematurely obsolete
... lots of work to do left
<mjs> I'd like to note again for the record that the text does *not* make the summary attribute obsolete
cshelly: new text ok for next draft
mjs, it appears in "12.1 Conforming but obsolete features". Why?
<mjs> Julian, that's the section that defines all the warnings in the spec
<Julian_> cshelly: PFWG happy with process
<Julian_> cshelly: @summary not the most important issue
<mjs> Julian, all the other warnings are for conforming but obsolete features, but the warning for summary is clearly stated in a distinct way, referring to its definition in the <table> section
<Julian_> mjs, not helpful, IHMO. The effect is the same.
<jgraham> AFAICT the spec is very clear that @summary just triggers a warning in section 12.1
<Julian_> cshelly: proposes a TF
<kliehm> Which brings me to the point wether there will a F2F meeting at TPAC 2009?
<Zakim> Lachy, you wanted to comment on the issue of publishing Working Drafts in the future
Lachy: do not let procedural and
technical issues mix
... let (FP)WDs be published without any discussion
<Stevef> +1 to lachlans suggestion
<rubys> +1 to lachlan's suggestion
<dsinger> I don't think I can agree that any document can be published from a WG without any discussion or agreement. That's an individual draft.
<cshelly> +1 to dsinger
<Lachy> dsinger, since WD explcitly don't require concensus of the group, what harm does it do?
<jgraham> Maybe any document that has been FPWD may be published again without discussion
<DanC> -1 to lachlan's suggestion. it's healthy that publication decisions re-awaken sleeping dissent and such.
Julian: not "obsolete but conforming" + "produce warning" -> does not compte
mjs: reminder about petent review clock for new PFWD
<Lachy> ok, that's fair enough about FPWD due to the patent review issues
<dsinger> First Public Working Draft: "Entrance criteria: The Chair must record the group's decision to request advancement. Since this is the first time that a document with this short name appears in the Technical Reports index, Director approval is required for the transition."
cshelly: points out that what was going on is good; we need to get things out of the way before LC
murray: found the discussion helpful, not harmful
<DanC> (FYI, last call comments shouldn't come from WG members; last call is a decision that the WG is done handling its own issues/comments.)
<rubys> if people who have already had a turn simply wish to repeat comments, I ask that they remove themselves from the queue
murray: points out that there could be multiple levels of warnings
<cshelly> danc, that's exactly why we need to agree on things before LC. If we don't, then there will be lots of comments from WG members.
mjs: connecting technical discussions to procedural ones is dangerous
rubys: allowing other people to produce WDs helps
<dsinger> well, I think if Ian feels that there is a strong consensus which he doesn't agree with, he'll concede
<cshelly> +1 rubys
<DanC> LC comments from WG members are out of order/non-sensical. LC is a decision that the WG is done. For a WG member to then send a comment doesn't make sense.
masinter: wants question to publish clarified
<cshelly> danc, I agree. that's why I think it's important to have these discussions about a public working draft, to force us to discuss and reach consensus
rubys: explains WD doesn't need to be better of perfect
masinter: has concerns with the current editor's draft
<jgraham> Having a public working group must change the expectations here, surely?
<DanC> the level of consensus should go in the status section. I wonder if we've been doing that.
masinter: proposes sections to be marked as controversial
<dsinger> I surely believe we all have concerns. if there weren't many, we'd be heading into last call :-)
rubys: issue marker for @summary
is currently missing
... will recommend to publish soon
<mjs> cshelley, I will agree that would should resolve issues in a timely way and well before LC, I just think there are healthier ways to do it than using a WD publication as a forcing function
cshelly: need to start addressing contentious issues now
<jgraham> In particular because the distinction between "in the working group" and "not in the working group" is very different to other groups; almost anyone with feedback can be "in the working group"
<dsinger> thank you for fine chairing...
<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 06 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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