<AxelPolleres> who dialed in from +7 ?

<AndyS> It's the UK dialin

<AndyS> but zakim usually prints ??P foo for it. I had to try twice to get in.

can we find out which line were on?

what's the code for putting your hand up

<AxelPolleres> Who is ARonksley?

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-21

scribenick SteveH

<AxelPolleres> scribe: Steve Harris

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14

accept last minutes?

<AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14

<AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14

ericP to scribe next week, but at risk for next 2 meetings

<kjetil_> Zakim: mute me

greg to scribe is eric not available

phase 1 charter, finalised just now, should go this week

ivan: ^^
... should take effect sept 1st

vacation plans

wiki page?

<scribe> ACTION: AxelPolleres to setup wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - AxelPolleres

<scribe> ACTION: Axel to setup wiki page to capture vacation times [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Setup wiki page to capture vacation times [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-07-28].

Liassons

no news from OWL

<ericP> nothing from HCLS

nothing from XQuery

nothing from RIF

nothing from RDB2RDF

Actions...

SPARQL Update reviews were done

ericP: I have implemented SPARUL a coulpe of times
... went a bit beyond the draft, with [some stuff couldn't hear]

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Eric to add review/experiences on SPARQL/update [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Add review/experiences on SPARQL/update [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-28].

kjetil_: action 58 is done

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0061.html

<SimonKJ> on #60, I didn't follow up on Kjetil's mail as I thought it, and Andy's response, summarized things well and I didn't feel I could add anything

SPARQL/Update

<kjetil_> SimonKJ: ok, that's fine

AlexPassant: ok with the submission
... INSERT two forms, feels that it would be easier for the end user to only have one
... Add ing a MOVE keyword would be more convienient
... SILENT would be better in the protocol than the language

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0069.html

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0073.html

LukeWM_, no strong opinions

LukeWM_, thought INSERT/UPDATE would be better in protocol?

LukeWM_, there are a bunch of verbs no clear when you can use WHERE etc.

LukeWM_, not clear when you should use MODIFY

AxelPolleres: hoping for comments on that review

ericP: people can rework grammars

<AxelPolleres> Eric, pointer to grammar tool to extend change the grammar.

AndyS: is it the same one in the submissions

ericP: no, it's the same as the one in the comment

<ericP> all of my comments are in http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/04/Comment

sorry, those LukeWM_,'s should be :'s

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARUL_EGP?lang=perl&markup=html

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARUL?lang=perl&markup=html

ericP, tweaked version of grammar

ericP: tweaked version of grammar

<LukeWM_> looks really useful, ericP

ericP: can try tweaking the grammar and see if it still works

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0076.html

SimonKJ: transactions, good to be clear upfront that transactions are out of scope
... if youre a SQL dev. then INSERT+DEL is normal, but in a transaction

<AxelPolleres> Simon, transactions missing for intuitive way to "MOVE"

SimonKJ: having a move would let us make it atomic
... same concerns about INSERT two forms
... went from not liking to neutral
... on UPDATE there is some wording around graphs existing or not, should eb consistent
... add some wording to sections that dont mention
... CLEAR needs some expansion, "does not remove graph"

<AxelPolleres> SimonKJ: What happens on updates on non-existing graphs?

SimonKJ: security seems to be out of band
... will be important in the protocol

<AxelPolleres> (steve pls summarize your comment on IRC I possible)

AndyS: MOVE gives the impl. more scope to impose atomicity

<AxelPolleres> Andy: It is more an implementation issue how to support atomicity.

<SimonKJ> if SteveH could comment on email we can pick up the discussion there

AxelPolleres: suggest that we confirm to use SPARUL as the basis for SPARQL/Update

<ericP> +1

+1

<kjetil_> +1

<ivan> +1

<kasei> +1

what does "formally" mean in this case?

<AlexPassant> +1

<bglimm> +1

<AndyS> +1

<chimezie> +1

<AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Base "SPARQL/Update" on the SPARQL/Update submission

<ivan> =1

<ivan> +1

<AxelPolleres> +1

no objections, no abstentions

<AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Base "SPARQL/Update" on the SPARQL/Update submission

<AndyS> I think there is a significant amount of work to be done (e.g. formal model, do graphs exists at all times, MOVE, ...)

AxelPolleres: Andy has some points to raise

<AxelPolleres> AndyS: formal model missing

AndyS: there's no formal model of what's going on, have to create a structure

<AxelPolleres> ... emtpy graphs issue

AndyS: do graphs exist without triples etc.
... can you mix queries and updates, how do they work together
... something we would concoiusly decide not to do
... ASK in update

<AxelPolleres> ... can you mix queries and updates in one operation?

Subslect is maybe a better example

AxelPolleres, WHEREs?

AndyS: eg. only apply some update under these conditions
... could have an ASK to fail some request depending on result
... there are issues like this that need to be covered, need to be sure were solving the right problem

kjetil_: some of the comments, I agree with, to MODIFY verb, do we need it?

<AxelPolleres> (sounds like an issue to me)

<ericP> AndyS, do your ASK { } INSERT {... } scenarios require a super-language anyways?

<AndyS> EricP, you mean SPARQL/Scripting? :-)

ivan: wondering whether the changes we plan on the QL, what effect will they have on the update lang

<kjetil_> I also feel that DELETE is a bit verbose and could be simplified

ivan: project expressions etc. do they affect the update language

<AxelPolleres> also sounds like an issue.

<kjetil_> I think it is quite close to a FP WD, but Last Call is further away

<AndyS> +1 to kjetil_

ivan: difficut to put as an issue
... whenever we discuss adding to query lang, whether it could affect update

LukeWM_: I think ivan has a point, worried about inference, has someone else had expereince

AndyS: it ruins your post conditions, you can delete triples but still there

ivan: what's the equivalent of subquery?

AndyS: not sure which way round, "can you have subselects inside" where, and "select which has an insert inside it" or "nested inserts and deletes"

ivan: the second one

AxelPolleres: we need a draft on the table, in order to get interactions

looking for volunteer

to summarise issues that have come up

<LukeWM_> +1 to wikipage

ericP: what about a wiki page

+1

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: start wikipage on Update issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - start

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Luke to start wikipage on Update issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Start wikipage on Update issues [on Luke Wilson-Mawer - due 2009-07-28].

AxelPolleres: timeline towards FPWD, in charter we'll have tight timeline, should have FPWD by end of Sept.
... in next week or so should identify editors
... base on update submission to draft new document
... all issues in draft in next few months, need reviewers etc.

need to draft new features in sparql/query

<kjetil_> could we have a straw poll on HTTP REST Update?

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL

AxelPolleres: template to help draft extensions
... should lead to draft of sparql/query
... volunteers for features
... people championed features, and filed out strawman
... recruit as subsection editors
... do people think that's a good approach

might do subquery

time permitting

<AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:SubSelect

<kjetil_> I hope to write test cases if we continue our W3C membership

AxelPolleres: people responsible for those sections

project expresions...

aggregates...

chimezie: I'll volunteer

first strawman in 2 weeks

negation...

AxelPolleres: lots of discussion already

AndyS: will do negation

ericP: I was about to
... project exp. tied closely with subselect
... it might improve my attitude

ericP to do project expressions

AxelPolleres: plan is to have draft on wiki under templates in 2 weeks

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: steve to draft subqueries in template [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Draft subqueries in template [on Steve Harris - due 2009-07-28].

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Eric to draft project expressions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Draft project expressions [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-28].

due date is wrong

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: chime to draft aggregates [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Draft aggregates [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2009-07-28].

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Andy to draft negation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Draft negation [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-07-28].

ericP: what form of negation are we talking about?

ivan: good question

AxelPolleres: that's not been decided

ericP: would be decided by who drafted it

AxelPolleres: should we discuss it before we draft it out

ericP: the working group understands the two problems fairly well, still at wiki stage, until we select one we can't put it into draft

AxelPolleres: can we reach agreement on that in the time remaining
... wither draft something pointing out both options, how either would work, or...
... but could put on agenda for next week

ericP: I prefer to keep sketching in the place where it is now

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL

AxelPolleres: actions are to put it into design templates

ericP: prefer not to put it there yet, better to discuss on wiki

AxelPolleres: all the drafts go into feature sketch places?

ericP: good trackability

AxelPolleres: the idea of templates is to bring into existing spec structure
... seems that negation is still a bit open, maybe good discussion for next week

AndyS: what are you hoping to achieve

AxelPolleres: agreement on which way to go

AndyS: email seemed to peter out
... more support from people not dealing with theory for FILTER, waiting for discussion to complete

AxelPolleres: waiting for clarification

ericP: AndyS was going to write down algebra for FILTER, ericP was going to work out MINUS approach

<AndyS> Andy has done that.

ericP will do algebra for FILTER approach

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Eric to sketch algebra for minus. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Sketch algebra for minus. [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-28].

AndyS: one of the important questions is are there any usecases where MINUS can express things that FILTER can't

<AxelPolleres> AndyS: Are ther use cases where minus can express what unsaid can't?

AndyS: what real usecases are we trying to address

ericP: I hear pushback from people who like monotonic from people who like NAF
... in terms of what you can express, if you do a set minus, where it's close to a relational set minus, then there are a case where !bounds have a particular effect

<AxelPolleres> Eric, can you point us to the email with the example?

ericP: it comes down to what happens when you've got optionals that aren't bound on the outside
... in the general case their identical

<LukeWM_> I can scribe for steve ...

<AxelPolleres> SteveH: people who don't care about theory mostly care about syntax?

<LukeWM_> AndyS: can you back that up?

AndyS: wanted to ask ericP where he was getting pushback from

ericP: from experience of previous WG
... when we have UNSAID we had objections

AndyS but we didn't have minus at that time

AndyS: but we didn't have minus at that time

ericP: it's easier to express that to them as it's this minus that
... I think it would be a more appealing algebra

<ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2009JulSep/0013.html

AxelPolleres: ericP can you elaborate on the usecase differences

ivan: charter call has just gone out

<AxelPolleres> Charter call has gone out.

ivan: get your AC reps to vote

<kjetil_> when is the deadline for voting?

<Zakim> kjetil_, you wanted to ask about completion of F&R

kjetil_: completion of F&R
... do we have any plan for the completion

AxelPolleres: on agenda for next time

kjetil_: I'm officialy on vacation next week, but will be there

AxelPolleres: time permitting features
... will need to work independently, not spend much telecon time until we've addressed the required features

<kjetil_> AxelPolleres: also, would be nice to have a straw-man poll on HTTP RESTful Update :-)

<kjetil_> AxelPolleres, also, would be nice to have a straw-man poll on HTTP RESTful Update :-)

AxelPolleres: have a look at features and consider joining taskforces where you're interested
... RESTful updates, we have to discuss

next week

<AndyS> http://jena.sourceforge.net/ARQ/service.html

AxelPolleres, what needs to be done to make the minutes visible?

<AndyS> SERVICE <http://sparql.org/books>

<AndyS> { pattern }

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to update deadlines of design draft actions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Update deadlines of design draft actions. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-07-28].

<AndyS> FETCH <http://sparql.org/booksGraph>

<AndyS> FETCH ?g

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Found Scribe: Steve Harris

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Default Present: +3539149aaaa, +7.441.173.70.aabb, AxelPolleres, john-l, EricP, +7.441.173.70.aacc, AndyS, +200000aaee, alepas, kasei, bglimm, Ivan, SimonKJ, SteveH, LukeWM_, Chimezie_Ogbuji, kjetil, Prateek, [Garlik]
Present: +3539149aaaa +7.441.173.70.aabb AxelPolleres john-l EricP +7.441.173.70.aacc AndyS +200000aaee alepas kasei bglimm Ivan SimonKJ SteveH LukeWM_ Chimezie_Ogbuji kjetil Prateek [Garlik]

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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 21 Jul 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html
People with action items: andy axel axelpolleres chime eric luke start steve

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<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report