BPWG Weekly telecon

 

 

Mobile Web Best Practices Weekly telecon

<brucel> please excuse noise from my phone; neighbours are having extension built

<brucel> and the builders seemed to show little regard for the importance of our deliberations

<scribe> scribe: PhilA

<scribe> scribeNick: PhilA2

Administrativa

Overlap between Accessibility and MWBP published.

<brucel> +1 hurrah

DKA: Hurrah!

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/bpwg-summer09/

<jo> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Jul/0038.html

s/http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/bpwg-summer09//

DKA: Anything else to say about it?
... Anything we need to monitor for feedback?

No responses...

Summer schedule

DKA: Please fill out the form at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/bpwg-summer09/
... Like I haven't
... Results look as if we have 28 July and 4 Aug will have low numbers
... Perhaps resolve to cancel calls those days?
... Let's run it on 21 and 28 July
... No Jo on 4 or 11th
... Fran�ois might chair on 18th
... so we might just cancel 4 Aug

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We cancel the August 4th teleconf.

Jo: When is Adam around?

Adam: I think next Tuesday (21) is the only one I can't make

Jo: Let's hold them as much as possible

DKA: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We cancel the August 4th teleconf.

<EdC> +1

<adam> +1

<DKA> +1

<jsmanrique> +1

RESOLUTION: We cancel the August 4th teleconf.

DKA: Fran�ois will need to chair on 11 August

<DKA> Francois will have to chair the 11th of August call... (hi Francois!)

<jo> [that should read: we request that Francois kindly chairs ...]

Update from Adam on MWABP

Adam: I'm sorry - I didn't get around to the desirable goals stuff. It will be done tomorrow
... I hereby solemnly swear I will post something on this tomorrow

<jo> ISSUE-292?

<trackbot> ISSUE-292 -- Need example of use of Fragment ID and Brwoser History -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/292

<jo> ISSUE-293?

<trackbot> ISSUE-293 -- Should there be a Best Practice noting that pixel density on mobile devices is typically greater than desktop? or is BP1 [MEASURES] sufficient? -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/293

<jo> close ISSUE-292

<trackbot> ISSUE-292 Need example of use of Fragment ID and Brwoser History closed

Adam: That can be closed

Jo: 293 is also unassigned

DKA: This has been around since 25 March and seems to be silent
... doesn't say who raised it (probably FD)
... I don't think this is really relevant to MWABP
... it might have been somthing for BP in the DDC discussion but doesn't seem like it's a mobile web app or advanced capability issue
... PROPOSED RESOLUTION - close issue 293

<adam> +1

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close issue-293 and do nothing here regarding pixel density in MWABP.

<DKA> +1

<jo> ISSUE-297?

<trackbot> ISSUE-297 -- Should we have a BP on appcache? -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/297

<EdC> 0

RESOLUTION: close issue-293 and do nothing here regarding pixel density in MWABP.

<jo> close ISSUE-293

<trackbot> ISSUE-293 Should there be a Best Practice noting that pixel density on mobile devices is typically greater than desktop? or is BP1 [MEASURES] sufficient? closed

Issue 297

Adam: this is done

<jo> close ISSUE-297

<trackbot> ISSUE-297 Should we have a BP on appcache? closed

Jo: We have only 6 open issues, 2 on mOK scheme

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close Issue-250 and issue-283

<jo> close ISSUE-250

<trackbot> ISSUE-250 The mobileOK License closed

Jo: Shall I just close them?

<jo> close ISSUE-283

<trackbot> ISSUE-283 a microformat for mobileOK trustmark closed

<DKA> +1

RESOLUTION: Close Issue-250 and issue-283

DKA: So that leaves 4 open issues, one of which is the desirable goals thing that we've talked about
... We really do have an open issue (294) around Media Queries
... Jo and Dan agree that it is an issue

Jo: we have lots of open action items

DKA: We mostly looked at issues last week
... Shall we talk about Media Queries?

yes! they all shouted

Media Queries in MWABP

DKA: Lots of different points of view on the mailing list
... I'd like to find a way to include some good info on MQ
... it'll be a disservice to our audience if we don't include info on it

<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Mention that anything you can do with CSS media queries is more conveniently done somehow else

DKA: but neither shoudl we propose them as a panacea

<brucel> permission to speak?

DKA: My porposal is that we put somne text in the doc that shows that can be done and also include a note that implementation is not uniform
... does that make sense as a framework?

bruce: Yes, it makes sense. I wrote some stuff on the list that developers might find this simpler to implement
... but for what they are can be considerably simpler than JS and server-side detect
... I've found them useful

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: enumerate some examples of how CSS media queries can be effectively used (based on our discussion on-list), and then include a warning about the varied level of implementation across different user agents...

Adam: L I don't see that MQ is any more or less supported than otehr things we talk about

DKA: But someone might look at the spec andassume that MQ is widely and uniformly supported

<brucel> q about the warning: does it "date" the document, is that OK in a best practice document?

DKA: I think it might deserve special mention in this case

Bruce: If we warn about implemetation or does that build in obsolescence

<Zakim> jo, you wanted to mumble on a bit about this

DKA: We can say something like "at the time of writing, implementation is not uniform but we anticipate better support..."

<DKA> :)

Jo: As Eduardo and I have said that there are few contexts where there isn't a simpler solution
... I think we're shoving stuff in the doc for the sake of it
... Eduardo? WDYT?

EdC: From what I have seen, the MQ is used to select the stylesheets and never used without resorting to MT
... if you are doing some device switching logic, then do that on the server
... if not, if you can't do it on the server, then I'm open minded whether JS or MQ is the better route
... I'm not sure on that last point
... Not sure that curent implementations of MQ can do what JS can do and vice versa

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: enumerate some examples of how CSS media queries can be effectively used (based on our discussion on-list), stressing that when these are used for media switching doing it on the server should be favored, and then include a warning about the varied level of implementation across different user agents...

adam: To Jo's point - well, if MQ work in some cases then it seems preferable to me
... (to JavaScript)
... I thinkm it's worth putting them in and saying 'consider using them'
... as for EdC's comment then I would say it looks more maintainable and doable than JS

bruce: What Adam said

PhilA: FWIW - +1 to Adam

<Zakim> jo, you wanted to question whether there is any justification for thinking that a browser that supports media queries doesn't offer exactly the same functionality in JavaScript -

Jo: it seems that this doc talks a lot about using JS and now we're saying don't use JS use this to achieve this end

DKA: I'm not sure why you have to use the MT as well as the MQ
... there seem to be examples on the list where you can use MQ without

EdC: the largest part of the usage is to select the stylesheet
... For clients that don't support MQ then you use MT
... But if that's the only way to do it on the client then OK
... maybe give the links I gave as examples
... those articles have extensive comments on what they can and can't achieve

bruce: Eduardo said that some agents don't handle MQ and you have to use MT - true. but it seems to me that you're saying because you have to do something rubbish for clients that don't do this you have to do that instead
... to Jo's point - JS is clearly necessary for apps but not display - that's the job of CSS
... selecting between typing a name and selecting from a list - that's JavaScript
... but changing widths, colours etc. seems what CSS is for

<DKA> :)

<jo> [have nothing further to add]

PhilA: Rambled on a bit about supprting use for MQ as a reasonable method
... without saying thou shalt not use JS

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We should include information on use of CSS media queries, with some caveats (e.g. that it is preferred to do media switching on the server side and that the support for MQ at this time is highly variable). We should also warn people against use of media types.

<brucel> WFM

DKA: I'm not trying to write the text here. We still recommend server-side switching where possible

<EdC> Warn people against use of media types: because devices have diverging interpretations thereof.

DKA: may want to include a warning on MT

<adam> +1

<brucel> and we give it as an alternative to server-side JS heathrobinsonism without saying it's better

DKA: EdC is right, if you rely on MT you're not going to succceed

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We should include information on use of CSS media queries, with some caveats (e.g. that it is preferred to do media switching on the server side and that the support for MQ at this time is highly variable). We should also warn people against use of media types.

<adam> +1

<DKA> +1

<EdC> +1

PhilA: Can we include the references EdC suggested?

DKA: Yes

Adam: I can write this up as a first pass

<jo> 0

RESOLUTION: We should include information on use of CSS media queries, with some caveats (e.g. that it is preferred to do media switching on the server side and that the support for MQ at this time is highly variable). We should also warn people against use of media types.

<scribe> ACTION: Adam to write first text based on the listserve discussion of Media Queries [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-997 - Write first text based on the listserve discussion of Media Queries [on Adam Connors - due 2009-07-21].

DKA: Anything else on this?
... Should we look at our action log?

Jo: Yes

<jo> Open Actions on MWABP

Jo: offers to send Adam some spelling mistakes

ACTION-744

Create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-744

That was on Bryan back in April

DKA: The issue has been closed

Jo: Do we have any text?

Adam: I think this discussion pre-dates me being heavily involved

Jo: It ought to say somewhere - "unless you can do adaptation ..."

<jo> Close ACTION-744

<trackbot> ACTION-744 Create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2 closed

Adam: Oh yes we have that

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-744 since we have wording in the doc anyway.

<DKA> +1

<EdC> +1

<jo> ACTION-786?

<trackbot> ACTION-786 -- Jo Rabin to draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem. -- due 2008-06-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/786

RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-744 since we have wording in the doc anyway.

ACTION-786

Draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem.

DKA: This is about aggregators operating in the mobile space
... it's from June last year
... is developing Stockholm Syndrome and will soon learn to love Big Brother Jo
... I think it's closed

Jo: I think we should decide whether we need it or not
... It's not obvious to everyone that the whole value chain for mobile is different

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-786 because this is out of scope for MWABP.

<EdC> +1

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-786 because this is out of scope for MWABP.

DKA: You can go buy book if you want to knoiw about mobile aggregators

<adam> +1

<DKA> +1

RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-786 because this is out of scope for MWABP.

<DKA> close ACTION-786

<trackbot> ACTION-786 Draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem. closed

<jo> close ACTION-786

<trackbot> ACTION-786 Draft wording for an appendix that identifies the aggregators and operator roles that are different in the mobile ecosystem. closed

ACTION-790

Produce some text around accessibility of Javascript for Web Application Best Practices

DKA: This was on Alan Chuter
... where does this stand in the current document

Adam: I must have missed any text he sent

<DKA> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html

Adam: I hear the point, especially about hiding and showing differnet textures of content
... but it starts to unravel - i.e. that BP may not be valid for screen readers but it may break other BPs
... it makes life hard
... I can add comments along the lines of "if you're concerned about accessibilty then beware of the consequences

<scribe> ACTION: Adam to extract some useful info from the discussion around ACTION-790 and add it to the doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-998 - Extract some useful info from the discussion around ACTION-790 and add it to the doc [on Adam Connors - due 2009-07-21].

<brucel> Adam, happy to work with you r/e ARIA stuff

<jo> close ACTION-790

<trackbot> ACTION-790 Produce some text around accessibility of Javascript for Web Application Best Practices closed

Adam: For the record - I can add to the doc without any pain and nod to WCAG and ARAI
... there's a potential new document for how to marry up these BPs with accessibility

DKA: Yes -andit's out of (our) scope

Bruce: As for the ARIA - is it such a big deal? I've been looking at it a lot

<jo> ACTION-794?

<trackbot> ACTION-794 -- Adam Connors to lead off discussion on ISSUE-265 following completion of next draft BP2 -- due 2008-07-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/794

Bruce: can't we just say "we draw your attention to ARIA which is a spec concerning screen readers" - not sure that we have to change much in the doc

Adam: I think at that level, you're right.
... where it gets more complex if you hide content in JS that gets read out by the reader
... but that's a big task to research that

Bruce: I can work with you on researching that in a couple of weeks

DKA: OK that'l comne under the action that Adam already has.

Adam: It would be good to have something to say about screen readers and JS
... I'll contact our GMail people about that too

<Zakim> jo, you wanted to note that we'd like to go to LC *before* a couple of weeks have passed

Adam: Can we add stuff post -LC?

PhilA: Not really!

<jo> [we should not go to last call if we know we are going to make changes]

<jo> ACTION-794?

<trackbot> ACTION-794 -- Adam Connors to lead off discussion on ISSUE-265 following completion of next draft BP2 -- due 2008-07-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/794

DKA: OK, so let's assume that Bruce's extra material will be editorial in nature

<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-794 as ISSUE-265 is closed

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-794 as ISSUE-265 is closed

<jo> close ACTION-794

<trackbot> ACTION-794 Lead off discussion on ISSUE-265 following completion of next draft BP2 closed

RESOLUTION: Close ACTION-794 as ISSUE-265 is closed

<jo> ACTION-845?

<trackbot> ACTION-845 -- Kai Scheppe to finalize information on caching concept, now live, and contribute it to the list. -- due 2008-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/845

<DKA> action-845?

<trackbot> ACTION-845 -- Kai Scheppe to finalize information on caching concept, now live, and contribute it to the list. -- due 2008-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/845

DKA: We have some potential text that Kai suggested

<DKA> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0052.html

DKA: Adam, anything from that gone into the doc?

Adam: I think some of the details are low level and too tech
... I think we have some good recommendations about caching. Not sure if current form is in scope

(noises off)

DKA: So what shall we do?

Jo: I think we need to discuss it with Kai

Adam: we cover some of it in fingerprinting
... it would be god to hear from Kai

<scribe> ACTION: DKA to feedback on action-845 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-999 - Feedback on action-845 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-07-21].

<jo> ACTION-852?

<trackbot> ACTION-852 -- Bryan Sullivan to write a note to WSCWG asking for comment on using secure hashes for securing URL parameters. -- due 2008-10-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/852

Adam: I think we can close this

<jo> close ACTION-852

<trackbot> ACTION-852 Write a note to WSCWG asking for comment on using secure hashes for securing URL parameters. closed

Adam: he wrote and got a reply

<jo> ACTION-854?

<trackbot> ACTION-854 -- Bryan Sullivan to raise his email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0087.html as an issue -- due 2008-10-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/854

Jo: I think this is buried in the sands of time. I'd suggest we close it and move on

<jo> close ACTION-854

<trackbot> ACTION-854 Raise his email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0087.html as an issue closed

<DKA> PROPOSED RESLUTION: Action-854 is buried in the sands of time.

<EdC> +1

<DKA> +1

RESLUTION: Action-854 is buried in the sands of time.

RESOLUTION: Action-854 is buried in the sands of time.

<jo> ACTION-855?

<trackbot> ACTION-855 -- Adam Connors to add an appendix on device info based on Bryan's contribution with a placeholder for additional device capabilities that are implied by the BP2 BPs. -- due 2008-10-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/855

Adam: eerrrmmm
... don't know what the content would be like for this. If someone wants to take this action off me?

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close action-855 because Adam did it.

<jo> close ACTION-855

<trackbot> ACTION-855 Add an appendix on device info based on Bryan's contribution with a placeholder for additional device capabilities that are implied by the BP2 BPs. closed

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close action-855 because Adam did it (hurrah).

Adam: No, hang on, I did it - BP device-dependent properties
... it's in here

<jo> ACTION-873

RESOLUTION: close action-855 because Adam did it (hurrah).

<jo> ACTION-873?

<trackbot> ACTION-873 -- Daniel Appelquist to provide some words on conservative use of resources -- due 2008-10-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/873

<jo> ACTION-876?

<trackbot> ACTION-876 -- Jeffrey Sonstein to send to Jeff list of test cases that Jeff can inflict on a grad student. -- due 2008-10-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/876

DKA: Keep that open on me, I may have time this week

<jo> ACTION-894?

<trackbot> ACTION-894 -- Adam Connors to review Alan's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html -- due 2009-01-15 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/894

DKA: Let's keep that open as Jeff isn't here

Adam: This is the one we just talked about

<DKA> close action-894

<trackbot> ACTION-894 Review Alan's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html closed

<jo> ACTION-898?

<trackbot> ACTION-898 -- Bruce Lawson to take lead on pointing out anything in the WebApps doc that we should be aware of and/or comment on -- due 2009-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/898

<jo> close ACTION-898

<trackbot> ACTION-898 Take lead on pointing out anything in the WebApps doc that we should be aware of and/or comment on closed

Bruce: I think this is a reference to the widget packing spec that I was asked to look at and comment back on. I concluded that there was nothing for us to be concerned about

<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We close action-898 and not worry our pretty heads about it.

<jo> ACTION-899

<jo> ACTION-899?

<trackbot> ACTION-899 -- François Daoust to contact WSC team (Thomas) to obtain a view on the secure hash mechanism discussed under 3.2.1 in BP2 -- due 2009-01-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/899

RESOLUTION: We close action-898 and not worry our pretty heads about it.

<DKA> close action-898

<trackbot> ACTION-898 Take lead on pointing out anything in the WebApps doc that we should be aware of and/or comment on closed

Adam: Action-899 was done

<jo> close ACTION-899

<trackbot> ACTION-899 Contact WSC team (Thomas) to obtain a view on the secure hash mechanism discussed under 3.2.1 in BP2 closed

ACTION-904

Initiate discussion on his blog ref feedback on the MWABP

DKA: Anyone got any info?
... best leave it open for now

Jo: becomes uncharacteristically quiet

<jo> ACTION-905?

<trackbot> ACTION-905 -- Daniel Appelquist to initiate discussion on betavine ref feedback on MWABP -- due 2009-02-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/905

<jo> close ACTION-905

<trackbot> ACTION-905 Initiate discussion on betavine ref feedback on MWABP closed

DKA: I initiated but there was no feedback unfortunately

<jo> ACTION-958?

<trackbot> ACTION-958 -- Jeffrey Sonstein to review some of the 3.4 & 3.5 examples from the perspective of the average developer and report -- due 2009-05-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/958

Adam: I didn't get any such feedback - I think this is quite old
... I've not had any feedback

Jo: There's been no traffic and it seems to have lost its sell by date

Adam: The point was raised about assumed knowledge
... the action was to look for places where we assumed too much knowledge - and I think that's still worth doing

Jo: How do we progress it if Jeff hasn't provided the feedback

DKA: So let's leave it open and try to ping Jeff about it

<jo> ACTION-960?

<trackbot> ACTION-960 -- Adam Connors to write a proposal in answer to EdC's comments on 3.6.1 and 3.6.2 -- due 2009-05-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/960

Jo: That was done I think?

<jo> close ACTION-960

<trackbot> ACTION-960 Write a proposal in answer to EdC's comments on 3.6.1 and 3.6.2 closed

Adam: yes, I did that

<jo> ACTION-964?

<trackbot> ACTION-964 -- Tom Hume to review AtomDB for potential inclusion/reference in MWABP -- due 2009-06-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/964

DKA: I think this is still pending

<jo> ACTION-966?

<trackbot> ACTION-966 -- Adam Connors to write a small BP on offline techniques citing AppCache as an example (and the outome of AtomDB as appropriate) -- due 2009-06-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/966

Adam: i think you said this is done, Adam?
... yes

DKA: Shall we close 966 and leave 964 open?

<jo> close ACTION-986

<trackbot> ACTION-986 Enquires as to status of CSS Media Queries Rec closed

<jo> close ACTION-966

<trackbot> ACTION-966 Write a small BP on offline techniques citing AppCache as an example (and the outome of AtomDB as appropriate) closed

<jo> ACTION-995?

<trackbot> ACTION-995 -- Adam Connors to look through J.J.'s email and apply additional text as necessary to reflect the additional desireable goals as a note after each individual BP. -- due 2009-07-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/995

DKA: This is still open as discussed earlier
... Great, let's go to CR

Jo: Down to 1 issues and 7 pending action

DKA: Then let's finish up with the BP 1.5 etc.

<DKA> :)

PhilA: Keep nagging me, it will be done

DKA: I can't bear any more unassigned actions
... Wants to close tha call - AOB?

Jo: Wants to do one more thing

<jo> ACTION: Jo to pat himself on the back for getting the ACTION-1000 :-) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/14-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1000 - Pat himself on the back for getting the ACTION-1000 :-) [on Jo Rabin - due 2009-07-21].

<brucel> +1

OMG, I think he's serious

<EdC> +2.17281728

<DKA> -1

<brucel> Hugs posse

<jsmanrique> bye

<EdC> bye