See also: IRC log
<hhalpin> Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-06-24T13:00-15:00Z
<hhalpin> Who volunteered for scribing?
<hhalpin> Scribe: Cloud
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 17 June 2009 as a true record
<hhalpin> scribenick cloud
Minutes from the last meeting, chair asks if everyone happy
<DKA> +1 to PhilA's scribing.
<hhalpin> ACCEPTED approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 17 June 2009 as a true record
Invited speaker will join fairly shortly, go through some actions in the meantime
There was a discussion about context, and also about the portability task
Joe Queen wrote a very nice scoping statement
Have first portability task meeting after our July 1st meeting next week
<hhalpin> No comments on portability?
hhalpin: Any comments from anyone on that?
<jsalvachua> hope to have comments on the mail
hhalpin: Joe, are you happy to have that task force meeting after next week's one?
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: Task force meeting next week after the regular telecon
hhalpin: User stories; Tim can't make it; Harry asks if anyone would like to help Tim to turn the user stories into a more coherent document
<bblfish> I helped out, and am interested
hhalpin: This tasks involves
editing the W3C doc, going through stories on the wiki, seeing
what overlaps, abstract functionality - need volunteers to help
out - think on this please
... Deadline is end of the year
<FabGandon> I can work on it during summer.
hhalpin: Good to have one person who did it before and one new person
FabGandon: Can work on it during July
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to create draft use-case document in W3C CVS [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Create draft use-case document in W3C CVS [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-07-01].
<hhalpin> 4. Context
hhalpin: Moving on to context, big discussion that Harry missed due to timing errors - looking for summar
PhilA? Took a look at discussion that took place, and wrote an e-mail yesterday about it. Integrated comments that came back.
scribe: suggesting a charter for
the task force
... aims to create a vocabulary, looking at existing ones for the ubiquitous web
<rreck> i agree look for existing vocabularies
scribe: very close link between
context and privacy
... should be link between task forces that look at privacy where privacy issues are due to when context is the cause
<bblfish> sounds good. Starting with a vocab, would help find out what the whole thing covers
hhalpin: DKA, you were talking about a geolocation API too, so may be related
DKA: Ask Lars or Eric or some other chair to come and discuss issues with privacy in the Geolocation WG
<hhalpin> ACTION: DKA to invite Dan to W3C Social Web XG for context comm call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Invite Dan to W3C Social Web XG for context comm call [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-07-01].
PhilA: Will this be part of the
task force or the main concall?
... want to have this discussion before August 7th
<hhalpin> August 7th - Nathan Eagle.
hhalpin: Skip everything else and go to invited speaker
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
hhalpin: Invited speaker is
... aka IdentityWoman
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<hhalpin> 6. Creating User Stories on the Wiki
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tpa to W3C-style "edit" user stories [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tinkster to document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tinkster to document developer stories on wiki. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin to retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] cperey to make list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on alexa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action11]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] karl to create the matrix to be filled [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action12]
kaliya: Hi everybody! Asks how many people here
hhalpin: About 20 people
<rreck> there are 22 people on irc
<hhalpin> Kaliya is from Internet Identity Workshop
kaliya: I sent you a lot of links, hope you read them, didn't send additional ones with history and context of the community
<hhalpin> Which has been a quite important community and event in creating notions of digital identity, openID.
kaliya: history is that Identity
Commons came together to see how individuals could manage and
control their own identities
... so that they could own this layer of the web
... Community formed in 2004/2005 was really focussed on user-centric identity
... Harry asked me to talk about high level strategies, key terms are in the community lexicon which defines shared language (e.g. the word identity)
... community stopped arguing about what identity meant, and focussed more on identifiers
... and came to definitions of what claims where, in that they are really just attributes
... claims can be made by yourself for yourself or by other entities (e.g. companies, non-profits) for other people
<hhalpin> seems the important concepts so far: identifier and entity (anything that can make a statement about an identifier)
kaliya: separation between authentication and authorisation, and enrolment
<pchampin> entity ~ foaf:Agent? (just trying to align my own vocabulary...)
<bblfish> I added the Social Web XG to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_web
kaliya: In the same article about community, user-centric, company-centric and card?-centric
<bblfish> also added foaf+ssl to http://wiki.idcommons.net/Identity_Landscape
kaliya: references informationcards.net
kaliya: Misunderstanding that the
only org involved is Microsoft, but the open source grassroots
community has embraced and extended it even further
... That project is called the "Hidden Project"? Available on Adobe Air
... Interesting journey to get to where we are today
<hhalpin> Venn diagram: http://www.xmlgrrl.com/publications/IEEESecPriv-MarApr2008-MalerReed-Venn.pd
kaliya: All social networking platforms show up at their events; very market driven; "what are users tell us are what we will do"
<hhalpin> Higgins Project
kaliya: They are working really well together to support portability and open authentication
kaliya: PortableContacts for standardising the info people have in their networks
<caribou> contacts or context?
kaliya: Ready to answer questions on what they've read and what they want to know about the community
hhalpin: We haven't thought about
the notion of identity so far
... Haven't talked about Information Cards
... Will be more asking for guidance about the identity landscape
... User versus card versus organisation
kaliya: that is an old model, but
now we have gotten to the Venn of identity
... evolution of our thinking is to help SWXG get to where they have gotten to, or at least to see how to get there
hhalpin: Through the link out on
IRC to the paper Harry has read and suggests other in SWXG do
... A lot of backgrounds in this group are from portability from Semantic Web and also mobile phones + social networking
bblfish: Henry in a cafe
... added to the identity landscape wiki about foaf+ssl work
... using URIs for identity
... interesting to hear how that work can integrate more into the identity commons
kaliya: has heard about foaf - wants to bring more info about it to the Identity Commons community
bblfish: Is it enough to add to the wiki?
kaliya: Join the community list, 500-600 people, was the mailing list that got the community started
<hhalpin> Do we have anyone on that identity commons mailing-list?
kaliya: Say hey do you know about this, we're working on it, and get people to interact with you
bblfish: Will try that
<hhalpin> Perhaps we should get a liason?
kaliya: More formal process
hhalpin: Asks what this process is
kaliya: Unique organisation as described in charter (non-proscriptive), have a monthly call
hhalpin: Might discuss if we should have someone join from SWXG
caribou: Do you have links to the ISO work on identity management
kaliya: Haven't to her knowledge
hhalpin: Any more questions?
<caribou> ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 27 WG5 working on an Identity Management framework
<hhalpin> caribou - should we ask ISO to present on what they are up to?
hajons: In telecommunications, have IMF - identity management - connect telecommunications network through the internet - has there been participation from IMS vendors etc.
kaliya: Has been participation
from European telecommunications vendors
... Our community is mainly made up of web portal folks and large enterprises
... Y!, Google, MySpace, Facebook, Plaxo, etc.
<renato> notes that W3C PLING has a liaison under way with ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 27 WG5
hhalpin: One thing we're trying to do is something similar to IC - you pointed out abstract functionality, separations that came out of IC - authentication, authorisation, validation - where is this written up?
kaliya: Article about cultivating community and shared language links to the lexicon; one of the first things they did
hhalpin: Seems that what has
happened in Internet Identity workshops is that you have
technology that is filling these functionalities; in W3C
groups, we are not sure how they all fit together
... need details of how technology X with functionality Y and are thinking of a matrix that could be used in our final report to W3C
<hhalpin> identifier: OpenID - an anchor
kaliya: What are we managing? Step back and ask why are we managing for people. e.g. identifiers, openid gives people an anchor on the web
<hhalpin> via their own domain name or an identity provider
kaliya: either as their own
domain name or a facebook url
... another key thing that came out of the community was discovery
... how do you find out what came out of the endpoint?
... Does it point to where my photos, IMs, etc. are?
... Kind of spun out into it's own spec and part of XRI tech committee at OASIS
... How can people link their different accounts together without giving away their passwords
<hhalpin> kaliya: XRD = discovery, what does an endpoint do, take a phone call, etc.
kaliya: Data portability / user
... Hand me a card that allows some claims to be made
... Different from the physical version
... In real world, they don't take a photocopy of your driver's license
... In digital world, just want to share some info
... It's enough to know age, not eye colour - selective disclosure
... MS bough Qidentica who does this selective disclosure
... Another wing of community is focussed on how individuals could have tools that help them manage relationships with companies they do business with (productCRM)
kaliya: Midack? in the UK and
lots of activity in London around VRM hub
... Identities never happen in isolation - in context of a group or entity or other individuals
<hhalpin> blackley relationship paper
kaliya: Great paper by Bob
... relationship paper
hhalpin: Great pointers and
... after telecon we will go through these notes and try to extract general points
... Idea of invited speakers makes more and more cross-community conversations
... Internet Identity Workshop is happening in November in California at around the same time as the W3C meeting
... Asks Kaliya for format of the IIW
<hajons> +1 IIW
<bblfish> sounds good.
hhalpin: and asks if anyone is planning to go
kaliya: Twice a year
... Same place
... Where all the big Social Web companies are
... in Silicon valley
... Don't have an agenda ahead of time, bring communities together
... In the morning after an intro section, community makes the agenda
<bblfish> I think I went there a year ago
kaliya: Different technical
activities are happening and they want to cover it F2F during
... So unlike conferences where real work happens in the hallways
... Super productive!
... Also reduces a lot of the politics, no committee deciding who gets to speak
... November 3-5 http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/
<hhalpin> Nov 3-5th.
kaliya: have discussed having it all week with different industry areas - not fully decided
<bblfish> Oh yes, I did go there last year http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/3_weeks_of_conferences_and
hhalpin: Asks it it's okay to come for 1-2 days
hhalpin: Will have a few people
there financial cuts permitting
... What would you see is the best way for us to continue future interactions apart from joining mailing list
... Who would Kaliya suggest we talk to next - e.g. Higgins project
... What could W3C do? Report about Social Web in general, but a lot of work is happening not with W3C partially because of structural issues with W3C - IRC is viewed as a pain, membership fees are really high
kaliya: Sense in Silicon valley
that market adoption is what a standard is, so don't care as
much about standards organisations
... Community around Open Web Foundation interesting (Messina, Smarr); community around OpenSocial is interesting (KevinMarks et al.)
... Chris Messina is working on distributed social networking (DiSo)
... Mentions some names from Higgins Project, missed who as audio not great
hhalpin: As an XG, main task is
to write a report. One year to do so (or 3/4 at this point). To
bootstrap, when we have invited speakers, someone will clean up
the minutes to summarise it for the report
... Just so we don't lose track of everything that's happened
... Throw minutes by kaliya for review
kaliya: Is on list
hhalpin: Asks for volunteers to edit minutes
<bblfish> we could do it
<hajons> one definition of identity was mentioned as being particularly good, but I couldn't quite hear what it was called (venner??), and didn't see it in the script either. What was it?
kaliya: one of the challenges is that there is so much stuff happening in community and quite broad so hard to summarise it
hhalpin: Henry to do first draft, Harry to go over it, and then send to Kaliya
<jsalvachua> have to go sorry, a lot of information to digest :) thanks.
<bblfish> Good reading
bblfish: Was at IIW a year ago, gave a talk about FOAF+SSL at Mountain View
<hhalpin> ACTION: bblfish and hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html#action13]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - And hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report [on Henry Story - due 2009-07-01].
<hhalpin> lots of activity on OASIS and concordia lists
kaliya: there is also an interop list
hhalpin: Kaliya to send links to listserv, at next meeting can go over the principles
<DKA> I must leave the call -- thanks very much to our guest speaker for great info though! (And thanks for waking up so early!)
hhalpin: any final questions, now
over 1 hour
... Thanks the invited speaker
<bblfish> thanks :-)
<hhalpin> Meeting Adjourned
<rreck> very informative kaliya