HTML Weekly Teleconference

18 Jun 2009



MikeSmith, DaveSinger, Sam, ChrisWilson, LarryMasinter, LauraCarlson, Matt_May, Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu, DanC




<MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/owea/charter

<pimpbot> Title: Open Web Education Alliance Incubator Group (draft) (at www.w3.org)

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7032] Sandboxing and Referer <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0061.html>

<pimpbot> planet: In HTML5, can you save an image to cache programmatically? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1010290/in-html5-can-you-save-an-image-to-cache-programmatically> 4** Calling JAXP from Ruby <11http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/06/17/Calling-JAXP-from-Ruby>

<MikeSmith> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/06/the_price_of_fr.html

<pimpbot> Title: Well, I'm Back: The Price Of Freedom (at weblogs.mozillazine.org)

<MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2009-June/008066.html

<pimpbot> Title: [webkit-dev] Ruby design document (at lists.webkit.org)

<MikeSmith> http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcgd8hk6_0ccsw4td4

<pimpbot> Title: Ruby (at docs.google.com)

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7034] New: change "conformance checker" to "ideology checker" or "loyalty checker" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0062.html>

<pimpbot> planet: the tristan washing machine <11http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/06/tristan-washing-machine/>

<pimpbot> planet: What to learn for RIA <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1011168/what-to-learn-for-ria>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7032] Sandboxing and Referer <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0063.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7034] change "conformance checker" to "ideology checker" or "loyalty checker" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0064.html>

<pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7034] change "conformance checker" to "ideology checker" or "loyalty checker"" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0065.html>

hsivonen: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/06/17/Calling-JAXP-from-Ruby

<pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Calling JAXP from Ruby (at intertwingly.net)

<hsivonen> rubys: nice! Do you convert between UTF-8 and UTF-16 at the language boundary?


That's why I think that CSS selectors / XPath is so important.

Ultimately, I will want to create some more Java code that does things like getContent (concatenate all text children of an element) and setContent (delete all children of an element and replace them with a single text node).

At this point, I want to put my code under version control. It could go into the same SVN as validator.nu. If you don't think that makes sense, I'm inclined to create a git repository.

<hsivonen> rubys: I think it makes sense to put it in the same repo

next step? I may have had an id before, but if so, I lost it.

<hsivonen> rubys: I want to move the whole thing to hg, which would remove the central repo issue, but right now I'm too busy chasing quarterly goals

<hsivonen> rubys: let's see if I can reset your password

<hsivonen> rubys: see email

I've logged in. Thanks!

Another thing I would like to do is to port the CSS2XPath logic to Java so that it can both available there, and made available to other languages.

<anne> 'This change won't be complete without changing Ian's title to "Supreme Leader" and renaming Working Group to "Highest Echelons of HTML".'

<anne> sweet

<Dashiva> HEH

<Dashiva> Linkk, anne?

<anne> the bug MikeSmith filed

<pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7034] change "conformance checker" to "ideology checker" or "loyalty checker"" (4 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0067.html>

<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeing

<trackbot> Sorry, MikeSmith, I don't understand 'trackbot, start meeing'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

<pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)

<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 18 June 2009

<masinter> two weeks without internet: 3000 new emails (literally!)

<ChrisWilson> Psssssht - is that all?

<ChrisWilson> tipply? No, not this early in the morning

review agenda planner

pick a scribe


<ChrisWilson> Thanks Sam

<scribe> scribe: rubys

<masinter> (can't hear, hope minute taker can)

ask for additional agenda items

<masinter> The working group is required to respond to comments

cynthia: with respect to the feedback the PF working group has gotten, which is from individuals and which is from the working group?

mike: no comments have come from the working group just yet

<DanC> (two different WGs)

larry: at what point will we have a process for the HTML WG to respond to comments?

<masinter> SHOULD respond to comments

mike: at last call

larry: we need to provide comments and do so in a timely way

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#doc-reviews

mike: hixie does keep track of comments and is consciensious

larry: there is a difference between a members response and a working group response

mike: if that is a person, we need to a person to do that work; the PF working group does that

larry: I'm talking about the public comment list

<shepazu> [[

<shepazu> Starting with the First Public Working Draft until the start of a Last Call review, a Working Group SHOULD formally address any substantive review comment about a technical report and SHOULD do so in a timely manner.

<shepazu> ]]

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note a difference between WG discussion and public comments

<DanC> right. it's a SHOULD now

mike: I don't think that now is a good time to do that at this point in the document lifecycle

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2009Jun/thread.html

danc: basically at this point the group has delegated to whomever wants to respond; later in the process this will become more formal.

dsinger: Ian does respond, and people are free to disagree (and often do)

larry: the comments aren't reviewed

danc: we do review the archives

larry: the process may have been fine to this point, but now it would be an appropriate time to become more formal

<MikeSmith> Zaki, who's on the phone?

<DanC> (my understanding is that Last Call is _exactly that_: we ask everybody to repeat their comment if it wasn't addressed.)

chriswilson: the process would have a high cost

larry: october is not that far away

danc: each draft is a response

larry: no, drafts are not reviewed

shepazu: larry: are you making a distinction between the working group and the editor?

larry: at some point the working group needs to respond

chris: there does need to be an ability to ask for that level of feedback

<DanC> yes, it's good to practice making WG decisions. I think it's good to focus on issues in our issues list before public comments.

cynthias: we need to start practicing making WG decisions

<Laura> No it was Cynthia.

<shepazu> s/xxx/cynthias/

larry: I'm requesting that the wg chairs consider establishing a process

chris: OK

danc: several have spoken in the opposite direction, we are doing just fine

<dsinger> I think any process can be quite lightweight, but knowing what it is might be nice

larry: do you agree that we need to change at some point

<Chris_Wilson> action cwilso +3 weeks establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - cwilso

<Chris_Wilson> action Chris Wilson +3 weeks establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts

<trackbot> Created ACTION-127 - Wilson +3 weeks establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts [on Chris Wilson - due 2009-06-25].

danc: yes, and a sharp change near last call has worked 10 or so times

larry: how about August?

danc: how about we focus on issues for now?

<Chris_Wilson> action-108?

<trackbot> ACTION-108 -- Larry Masinter to report back on the TAG's work on versioning wrt HTML -- due 2009-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/108

<masinter> i think the question is whether comments turn into issues

larry: I changed the status to Pending Review this morning, the TAG will take up this as a major topic at next week's F2F

<DanC> (I don't see HS's msg. hmm.)

larry: got feedback from Henri (Sivonen?)
... I'm optimistic

chris: I'd like an opportunity to review it after the F2F

larry: I don't see a need to keep the action item open

chris: are you OK with demoting this issue to raised?

larry: I don't believe that issues being raised but unaddressed is a good process

chris: at some point we are going to need to triage
... if we do nothing, we would not have a version identifier

sam: we need a concrete proposal, I support eventually closing items which do not attract concrete proposals

chris: I read you (Larry) as saying that the TAG will produce a proposal.

larry: I don't see the TAG making a concrete proposal

I see the TAG as providing guidance

chris: I understand the TAG's role. I don't see how to get any traction on this issue
... I don't think the chair can drive such an issue

sam: ignoring chair and tag, at the moment neither chris nor larry have a concrete proposal

chris: I have made concrete proposals

<DanC> "If we have versioning, it should be in an attribute, not the doctype" is sorta mis-cagegorized in the issue discription http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4

larry: we don't need an action in order to make progress

<DanC> ACTION-108 due 2 July

<trackbot> ACTION-108 Report back on the TAG's work on versioning wrt HTML due date now 2 July

chris: we should move the action item out

<DanC> (arbitrary date; lmm feel free to give another)

<masinter> that's fine

<Chris_Wilson> action-98?

<trackbot> ACTION-98 -- Matthew May to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back -- due 2009-06-11 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/98

matt: the PF wg published their recommendations on thursday, shelley posted this to the public-html mailing list

<DanC> # forwarding: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 Shelley Powers (Thursday, 11 June) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0391.html

<Laura> PF response http://www.w3.org/mid/20090611013045.GA25694@sonata.rednote.net

chris: can we close the item?

matt: ok

danc: who picks up the ball?

<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0474.html

laura: ian hasn't responded

<Chris_Wilson> action-105?

<trackbot> ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-06-11 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105

chris: I would expect this to get a response pretty quickly

<DanC> close action-98

<trackbot> ACTION-98 Discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back closed

sam: I've been meeting with PLH; progress has been made, but not much I can say publicly just yet

<Chris_Wilson> action-97?

<trackbot> ACTION-97 -- Chris Wilson to following SVG-in-HTML thread, propose decentralized extensibility strategy for HTML5 -- due 2009-06-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/97

sam: move to end of the month

<DanC> action-105 due 2 July

<trackbot> ACTION-105 Should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. due date now 2 July

chris: I don't think that there is enough support for this, yet I'm puzzled by the amount of support other browsers have for things like SVG

<Chris_Wilson> wow, that was weird. one moment...

<masinter> nm

larry: I believe that extensibility is intertwined with versioning

<masinter> a 'version' is a way of combining a (large) set of extensions

<MikeSmith> Zaki, call Mike

<masinter> you could think of language + extensions as another 'version' of the language, and a 'version' as a way of combining a bunch of extensions

<masinter> don't hear Chris

<scribe> chair: danc

<masinter> danc: Decentralized extensibility: leave until Chris gets back on the line

danc: lets move on from Decentralized extensibility

ISSUE-32 (table-summary):

cythina: lets wait for chris

<DanC> back to...

ISSUE-41 (Decentralized-extensibility)

larry: you can think of a language version as a collection of extensions

chris: I understand what Larry is saying; the extensibility model is essentially the parser syntax, things like ignoring unknown extensions
... microsoft we looked at that and decided on namespaces

larry: it would be helpful to know what the mistakes were

<masinter> namespace URI was ignored in early IE, xmlns:t always equated to time

chris: the biggest ones were correct in IE8. In particular, we ignored the namespace URI; we only cared about the short name (prefix)

larry: other than that, you think that ns extensibilty worked OK

chris: we thought so
... with namespaces we can add things without having to worry about the semantics of new things
... it seems that there is not any impetus from the other browser vendors to do distributed extensibility
... I'm worried about that

larry: the draft on versioning did not look at distributed extensibility

<masinter> specifically, but think it is was worth looking at

sam: if this boils down to parsing rules, are there any existing HTML5 parsing rules that IE won't implement, or any IE parsing rules that HTML5 should adopt

chris: there are some problems with IE's rules

sam: I'm not asking what's wrong with IE, but what's wrong with HTML5

chris: the challenge is that there is nothing that enables you in an uniform way to allow you to extend the language in a way that guarantee that there won't be conflict
... namespace URIs is a good way to ensure that there won't be conflict

<annevk> (you could do ms-foo, but really it'd be best if you just coordinate)

chris: (to anne) I don't think that's practical in the real world; no one standardizes before shipping.
... MS has stringent backwards compatibility requirements
... saying "do XHTML instead" has "only a little bit wrong with that"

anne: prefix seems fine

chris: I'm not trying to open the door to vendors shipping proprietary extensions and worring about the consequences later
... I'm more talking about how the OpenSVG effort is using the language
... even the apple guys keep multiple implementations of canvas around as they care about backwards compatibility on the dashboard

anne: Apple's issue is still an issue either way

chris: the issue is things like border corners or transform

<dsinger> dave needs to find an expert on the wriggling here, to give an informed opinion

<masinter> this seems like a really useful and important discussion

<dsinger> we DO warn users that pre-standard features are subject to (arbitrary) change, and (when possible) we prefix etc. (which is easier in CSS than HTML, I think)

doug: what if MS does decide to support SVG and using HTML5 parser? Will they use HTML5 parser standalone?

chris: I think it would be crazy to do that

<annevk> (The HTML5 parser cannot even be used for .svg files.)

<cyns> I have to leave, but there is a new editors draft of the ARIA Implementation Guide at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/ and an updated schedule, including meeting topics at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Schedule_of_Deliverables

doug: what about anne's XML5?

chris: it could be done, but would require a different mime type

doug: it would be subset of XML+something

chris: I'm not so sure

<masinter> this really should be covered by a "versioning" finding

<masinter> a subset of a language is a kind of version of the language

<masinter> and documents don't "have" a MIME type, they're "served" or "sent" with a MIME type

<annevk> what subset are we talking about here?

<masinter> SVG without XML entity resolution is a subset of SVG

<annevk> (XML5 is a superset of XML 1.x fwiw)

<annevk> (and deals with entities)

chris: we are out of time, I should write some of this up.

doug: I'd like to continue this discussion

<masinter> "doing" SVG isn't necessary, "allowing" SVG is

chris: move that we adjourn

<Chris_Wilson> move to adjourn

<annevk> cheers

<masinter> thank you for your trivialization, Anne

<dsinger> bye

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found Scribe: rubys
Inferring ScribeNick: rubys
Present: MikeSmith DaveSinger Sam ChrisWilson LarryMasinter LauraCarlson Matt_May Cynthia_Shelly Shepazu DanC
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
Found Date: 18 Jun 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/18-html-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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