<SteveH> I think my action was time mermitting, but maybe that wasn't captured

<AndyS> It's FPWD - agreeing to publish is not a universal agreement with the doc.

Hi all, I am scribing today for the first time... Do i have to do something special to get the chat log published afterwards?

<SteveH> oh, I may be able to attend after all, but will be a bit late

<kasei> yes, can hear you

<AxelPolleres> scribenick: bglimm

<AxelPolleres> scribe: Birte Glimm

AxelPolleres: Many people are at SemTec and cannot attend today

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-06-16

AxelPolleres: let's approve the minutes from last time

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-09

AxelPolleres: any objections? or additions?
... nothing, so the minutes are approved

Alex: I am listed, but I wasn't there

<AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes with Alex being removed from the attendees list.

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel Eric to update minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Eric to update minutes [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-23].

AxelPolleres: Can we approve it with the amendments?

<AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes with Alex being removed from the attendees list.

<AlexPassant> regrets for 2009-06-09 are there actually: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02

AxelPolleres: next meeting is in one week, 23rd June same time
... scribe for next week: KjetilK

Liasions

<SimonS> Regrets for next week. I will be travelling, maybe I can join on IRC

AxelPolleres: Bijan is not here, so no news from OWL and no news from RIF
... no news from liasons today

actions

AxelPolleres: we some open actions: 16 on LeeF continious
... action 17 on Steve

Steve: I think that is obsolete now

AxelPolleres: Action 19 on Ivan is open

Orri: What is that action?

<AndyS> """Send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs"""

AxelPolleres: We have to look that up in the minutes
... Action 28 is continued and action 32 on Simon is open

Simon: Action 32 should be completed

AxelPolleres: Action 36 is completed
... Action 37 is completed

<kasei> action-38 can be closed, and is on the agenda for later

AxelPolleres: Action 38 on Greg is completed and can be closed
... we have 2 open actions to review the F&R docs
... we leave this open for now
... action review is done

F&R Document

kjetilK: We just 2 things open
... the short name and the introduction
... we have the project description
... SteveH couldn't finish his review
... whether Chime has reviewed is not known

AxelPolleres: Lets look at the open issues for this
... short name first

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0383.html

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-features/

AxelPolleres: proposal was to use the name SPARQL Features
... but this has no version number
... any opinions?

AndyS: Can we ask the team contact and ask what is the standard

AxelPolleres: They are not here at the moment

<AndyS> e.g. TR/xpath-datamodel/ -- no version number (and it's xpath 2.0)

AxelPolleres: I can ask the team contact

<AndyS> but /TR/xmlschema-2/

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to ask team contacts whether http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-features/ is ok [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Ask team contacts whether http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-features/ is ok [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-23].

<KjetilK> +1

AxelPolleres: Can I propose to go with that name unless there is some objection from the team contact?
... do we need a backup solution
... ?

<AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: F&R will be published under http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-features/ unless there are concerns from the team-contacts.

<AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: F&R will be published under http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-features/ unless there are concerns from the team-contacts.

AxelPolleres: Lets ressolve this and see
... My concern is that the previous versions said RDF SPARQL and not just SPARQL

<SteveH> lets delagate

<KjetilK> +1

AxelPolleres: I think we can go with that for now

AndyS: your resolution says that the doc will be published like that, so that might cause a problem

<AndyS> NB we have not decided to publish yet

AxelPolleres: So should I change the resolution?

<AxelPolleres> PROPOSE: in case of concerns, leave the naming decision to team contacts.

AxelPolleres: is it ok to leave it to the team contact for the naming issues?
... any objections?

<AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: in case of concerns, leave the naming decision to team contacts.

AxelPolleres: So, there are none and I suggest to resolve this

Introduction

AxelPolleres: Did you incorporate what was on the wiki?

KjetilK: I havn't, but there was nothing substantial

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Features_Introduction_strawman

AxelPolleres: I looked ob=ver it. It is not a substantial change. It is mostly to reorder some parts
... also there are links to the resolutions and I was hoping that this fulfils Andy's concern about the timestamp feature
... Would such a reordering be ok?
... if there are no objections, I propose to change it like that.

AlexPassant: I would like to keep 1.1 and the structure of the documents

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Alex to adopt http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Features_Introduction_strawman with two subsections. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Adopt http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Features_Introduction_strawman with two subsections. [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-06-23].

AxelPolleres: I will give you an action to adapt the document
... any more objections?
... none, so lets do that.
... next, examples

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ProjectExpressions

KjetilK: I took text from the wiki and put it in the document

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/#Project_expressions

AxelPolleres: Let's have a look

<KjetilK> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/#Project_expressions_syntax

AxelPolleres: should the construct with expressions be left in, for the moment it was
... it should be clear that this is not the complex expressions
... Did you include the implementations list?

kjetilK: I havn't included that
... it seems that the doc is not self-contained with many links

AxelPolleres: So you don't have any?

<AndyS> Checking F&O: fn:concat --> fn:string-join

<AxelPolleres> (simon was asking)

<AndyS> fn:concat implies a cast, string-join does not

AxelPolleres: There are some implementations listed, so should we unify that?

<KjetilK> AndyS: fixed :-)

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/#Negation

AxelPolleres: there are some concerns about an example in the negations subsection
... any opinions?
... Kjetil have you seen that email

<SteveH> It needs a 2nd example

kjetilK: I saw it and thought about it a bit

AxelPolleres: what we need is an approval of Andy because he raised the concerns?

AndyS: Which change?

<kasei> small typo in 2.3.3: "does not no anyone" shoudl be "does not know anyone"

AxelPolleres: In the negation section.

AndyS: The wording says syntax, but we actually make deeper changes

<kasei> I think it is strange to show an example from SeRQL for negation when there are existing SPARQL approaches...

<AndyS> agree with kasei

<AndyS> Use his impl as example.

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0379.html

<SimonS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0379.html

AxelPolleres: I just pasted the relevant mail

<kasei> +1 to the rewording

AndyS: I think the new wording is better

AxelPolleres: Is the rewording for the second part fine too?

<KjetilK> yes

<AlexPassant> +1

AxelPolleres: There is a second part to this
... there was a concern that only the minor system is mentioned
... I am not sure which systems implement UNSAID? I think only ARQ.

<KjetilK> committed :-)

<kasei> I support UNSAID

<AxelPolleres> Orri: NOT EXISTS for SQL

AxelPolleres: we would need to rewrite it as NOT EXISTS in SQL syntax

AndyS: Are there any examples in the wiki pages?

<SimonS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:Negation

AxelPolleres: I would like to see an example like the other one, expression the same thing as the other one

<AlexPassant> Zakim: ack me

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Orri to mail NOT EXISTS example. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Mail NOT EXISTS example. [on Orri Erling - due 2009-06-23].

Orri: I can mail an example

<kasei> the UNSAID example in the referenced email will work in RDF::Query as-is.

<AlexPassant> I was not actuall

AxelPolleres: Orri will mal an example

Orri: I can do that now.

AxelPolleres: kjetil or Alex can you adopt that in the document?

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: adopt NOT EXISTS running example in F&R [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - adopt

AxelPolleres: where is Kasei's example?

Kasei: It's in the mail and in other places

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0379.html

<AxelPolleres> Kasei: UNSAID works with Kasei's implementation

<AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation#Example

<AndyS> first example

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Kjetil to adopt one more additional syntaxe UNSAID or NOT EXISTS for negation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Adopt one more additional syntaxe UNSAID or NOT EXISTS for negation [on Kjetil Kjernsmo - due 2009-06-23].

AxelPolleres: Until when can this be done?

kjetilK: I think immediately

AxelPolleres: If we have all these actions done, we need approval by two more people.
... We can still propose to publish, given that these reviews are positive given that it is a draft
... So I need two reviewers
... Steve, when could you look over the documents?

SteveH: early next week

<kasei> (very loud typing noises... bglimm, is that you?)

AxelPolleres: Could anybody do that earlier.

Simon: I can also do that early next week

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Simon to review F&R [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Review F&R [on Simon Schenk - due 2009-06-23].

AxelPolleres: Kjetil can you incorporate the changes today after the meeting?

kjetikK: yes

AxelPolleres: So next week we can decide whether we can publish or not
... is there anything more on F&R

<AxelPolleres> Postpone decision to next telecon (hopefully really ONLY the decision)

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to ask team contact to approve patent text (currently commented in the document). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Ask team contact to approve patent text (currently commented in the document). [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-23].

AxelPolleres: nothing else? No, so lets move on.
... to Service Descriptions

service descriptions

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ServiceDescriptions

AxelPolleres: last week two actions were completed on this
... Greg, can you tell us what you did?

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/38

Greg: I have posted a list on the wiki

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0380.html

Greg: with things I suggest should be standardised

<Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about SPARQL/1.0 (minor)

AndyS: we need to put the version number of the SPARQL features in

AxelPolleres: Can we have an assumption that SPARQL 1.0 is the default

<SimonS> Sounds like a chicken and egg problem: Need SPARQL/1.1 to say I am a SPARQL/1.0 endpoint

<SteveH> +1 to no defaulting

AndyS: I don't think. If the system does not say anything, then it is not supporting any particular version

<AxelPolleres> seems agreement that no default behavior should be assumed/defined.

AndyS: Greg, do you have an example for the connection RI?

<AndyS> +1 to naming all built-ins with URIs.

Greg: for new features, such as aggregate functions, it makes sense to give them new URI's
... at the moment we don't have URIs for all features
... I think there was support for using URIs instead of keywords

AxelPolleres: should we have URIs for libraries or URIs for all features?

<AndyS> and that they should work as a function call. Except BOUND, || and && which are not strict functions (they are technically special forms)

Greg: That might depend on the decision of whether or not we will have function libraries

<AndyS> Axel: do we want also to name libraries?

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0380.html

AxelPolleres: We are running out of time, so we might have to contibnue this discussion on mail.
... I have to talk to Lee on how we proceed now and where we continue
... whether we should focus on the features or whether we should flesh out the time allowed features in the F&R document
... Any other things for the agenda?
... No, so see you next week.

<AxelPolleres> Adjourn.

<AxelPolleres> Thanks all!

<bijan> Axel, Is lee going to do the clean up of the minutes?

<AxelPolleres> bijan, I need to check with him

Let me know if i have to do anything on the minutes

<AxelPolleres> The minutes magic was done by eric/lee so far.

<bijan> Yes

<bijan> Lee

<bijan> Not me

At the moment, I get insufficient access privileges if I try to access the minutes

<bijan> Definitely not me

<AxelPolleres> yeah, I got the same problem with the rrsagent last week already.

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/attent/attend/
Succeeded: s/Ivan/Orri/
Succeeded: s/Somin/Simon/
Succeeded: s/Any's/Andy's/
Succeeded: s/ARC/ARQ/
Succeeded: s/not/would/
Succeeded: s/Ori/Orri/
Succeeded: s/bijan/lee/
Found ScribeNick: bglimm
Found Scribe: Birte Glimm
Default Present: +049261287aaaa, +1.518.276.aabb, kasei, +3539149aacc, AxelPolleres, bglimm, AlexPassant, +49.261.287.aadd, SimonS1, SteveH, AndyS, KjetilK, [IPcaller], bijan
Present: +049261287aaaa +1.518.276.aabb kasei +3539149aacc AxelPolleres bglimm AlexPassant +49.261.287.aadd SimonS1 SteveH AndyS KjetilK [IPcaller] bijan

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 16 Jun 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/16-sparql-minutes.html
People with action items: adopt alex axel eric kjetil orri simon