See also: IRC log
<AllanJ> working draft in July
HS: comments on new Opera UA
technology - Opera Turbo (for Instance) - Speed dial thumb
... Resizable search field + spell checker and auto updates. Lots of addition and svg improvements.
... have comprehensive list of feedback on accessibility in terms v 10
... Largest Accessibility change is Opera Turbo - better access if location based or compromised network.
... New accessibility stuff is not in this version but is upcoming in the next (hopefully).
KP: familiar with mouse-less browsing in Firefox - numbers all links. if opera did this it will enable all speech.
HS: Any feedback much appreciated.
<KimPatch> Mouseless Browsing addon for Firefox https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/879?id=879&application=firefox
GL: Should we cover Mouseless Browsing and the like in the guidelines.
SH: Is this not included in 4.1.7 Keyboard Navigation: The user can use the keyboard to navigate from group to group of focusable items and to traverse forwards and backwards all of the focusable items within each group. Groups include but are not limited to toolbars, panels, and user agent extensions. (Level AA)
All: discussion re feature list comparison.
JA: Could be an addendum to the technical specification.
<KimPatch> Customize your Web https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/11759
<Greg> #70. (Re 4.1.9) Is 4.1.9 actually Level A?: I ask because elsewhere the success criteria for a guideline are sorted according to Level, but here 4.1.9 (Level A) follows 4.1.8 (Level AA). Is this a temporary artifact that will be fixed when items are renumbered? Or is 4.1.9 miscategorized as A when it should be AA? (Priority: 3 Low) (Type: Clarify)
<Greg> #71. (Re 4.1.9) Is overriding all UI keyboard commands too broad?: I'm concerned because I'm not sure that any browsers allow the user to override *all* of the platform's UI keyboard commands" (e.g. ALT to activate the menu bar, CTRL+O for open, CTRL+A for select all, Tab for sequential navigation, etc.). Is it possible that the current wording is unintentionally broad? (Priority: 1 High)...
<Greg> ...(Type: Clarify)
<Greg> This still needs to be addressed.
<Greg> #72. (Re 4.1.9 **) "Platform" vs. "Operating Environment": In some places the document uses "platform" (e.g. 4.1.6) but in others users "operating environment" (e.g. 4.1.9) for what appears to be the same thing. Please consider normalizing the terminology. (Priority: 3 Low) (Type: Formatting)
<Greg> #73. (Re 4.1.9 **) Define "override" keyboard shortcut bindings: 4.1.9, 4.1.10 and 4.1.11 require the user be able to "override" keyboard shortcuts, but don't define the term. 4.1.9 and 4.1.11 refer to "rebinding" and so requires the user to be able to assign new shortcuts that replace the default ones, whereas 4.1.10 does not mention this and so implies that the user only needs to be able...
<Greg> ...to remove default shortcuts, but the ability to reassign or assign new shortcut keys is presumably left optional. For the goal of improved accessibility there are really three potential features: (a) the ability to delete existing shortcuts is useful when they conflict with shortcuts used by assistive technology; (b) the ability to reassign shortcuts for functions that already have them...
<Greg> ...accomplishes that goal PLUS retains the ability of shortcuts to reduce the number of keystrokes and/or steps required to execute an operation; (c) the ability to assign new shortcuts to functions that don't have them by default accomplishes both of those goals PLUS allows the user to further reduce the number of keystrokes or steps they have to enter. One way of handling these diverse...
<Greg> ...choices would be to make the first option be Level A, the second Level AA, and the third Level AAA. (Priority: 2 Medium) (Type: Clarify)
<Greg> This still needs to be addressed.
<Greg> #74. (Re 4.1.9 **) Normalize "keyboard shortcuts" vs. "keyboard shortcut bindings": 4.1.9 uses the term "keyboard shortcut binding" while 4.1.10 uses "keyboard shortcut". I assume they are meant to refer to the same thing, so the document should standardize on one phrasing. (Priority: 3 Low) (Type: Clarify)
Proposed: 4.1.9 Override of UI Keyboard Commands: The user can override any keyboard shortcut binding for the user agent user interface except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g., for access to an open command). The rebinding options must include single-key and key-plus-modifier keys if available in the operating environment. This does not prohibit a user agent from supporting user override of conventional bindings for the operating pl
5 accept / 3 discuss
GL: not everything address - see above (especially #71)
JR: Should this be AA? It is P2 in UAAG 1.0.
JS: The last sentence is still not clear. It took me about 4 times through to understand what it means. recommend inserting before the sentence beginning "the rebinding options":
This does not prohibit the user agent from allowing user override of the conventional bindings.
<scribe> scribe: Harper_Simon
<scribe> scribeNick: sharper
JS: Specifics (of keyboard commands) should be included in the glossary - otherwise gets very confusing in guidelines.
GL: move details to glossary if clarify increased.
JA+KP: like JS proposal - GL: agrees
RESOLUTION: GL: to work on 4.1.9 some more - JS to assist.
<jeanne> ACTION: GL to work GL and JS to write a definition of Keyboard Command [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - Work GL and JS to write a definition of Keyboard Command [on Greg Lowney - due 2009-06-18].
5 accept / 2 discuss / 1 neutral
JR: I'm a bit concerned by 4.5.1. Because it refers to something everyone does anyway (make preference setting configurable), I think people might interpret as requiring everything that impacts accessibility to be controlled by a preference setting.
GL: Please see comments at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0094.html
DP - Neutral: we have to study the security implications of the portability section.
<Greg> FYI ISO's equivalent wording is "8.2.6 Provide capability to use preference settings across locations: Software should permit users to transfer their preference settings easily onto a compatible system."
2 accept / 1 change / discuss 3 / neutral 2
JR - discuss: Maybe we could clarify as follows:
Portable Profiles: Sets of preferences are stored such that they can be transferred between different installations of the same user agent. (Level AA)
KP-discuss: Accessible profiles sometimes take quite a bit of time to set. Making an accessible profile portable means you can access multiple computers more easily and more easily work on other people's computers. This is a basic in some jobs. Ease of access to a given computer is a showstopper in many situations.
<Greg> The ISO version is Level 3 (AAA)
JA-Discuss: current rewrite of this - see #2 (4.5.4) above has this as AAA.
When this was originally written, the concept was - user creates a mysettings.profile in UAx, that file can be used on other UAx on other computers. But would not be required to work with UAy or any other UA.
The comment above, seems to indicate that the profile would/might work in all UA cross platform. HTML, CSS, and JS can hardly do that now. I agree that cross browser/platform profile usage is beyond our charter. Perhaps we need some language to limit the profile to individual UAs and perhaps on a given platform.
4.5.4 Accessibility Portable Profiles: Sets of preferences are stored as separate files (allowing them to be transmitted electronically). Note: These profiles may be usable only with the brand(?) of user agent that created it (Level AAA)
Per my comment #7 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0094.html, I suggest harmonizing with ISO 9241-171 by adopting their wording or a close equivalent. ISO says "8.2.6 Provide capability to use preference settings across locations [ANSI Level 3]:
Software should permit users to transfer their preference settings easily onto a compatible system.", and it provides a number of important accompanying notes and examples.
RESOLUTION: JA to reword to more closely follow ISO - put on survey and take a vote.
<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to reword 4.5.4 Accessibility Portable Profiles: Sets of preferences are stored as separate files (allowing them to be transmitted electronically). to reflect ISO wording. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-195 - Reword 4.5.4 Accessibility Portable Profiles: Sets of preferences are stored as separate files (allowing them to be transmitted electronically). to reflect ISO wording. [on Jim Allan - due 2009-06-18].
RESOLUTION: ISSUE-4 on tracker needs to be closed when we vote.
JA: Any Objections?
GL-Discuss: Please see comments at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0094.html
JR-Discuss: I'm a bit concerned by 4.5.1. Because it refers to something everyone does anyway (make preference setting configurable), I think people might interpret as requiring everything that impacts accessibility to be controlled by a preference setting.
<Greg> My comments on 4.5.x are at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0094.html
All: Discussion around 4.5.1
<AllanJ> Proposed: 4.5.1 The user has the option to change settings that impact accessibility.
JA: KP email - change to ... The user has the option to changes settings that impact accessibility.
RESOLUTION: 4.5.1 The user has the option to change settings that impact accessibility.
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update 4.5.1 to "The user has the option to change settings that impact accessibility." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-196 - Update 4.5.1 to "The user has the option to change settings that impact accessibility." [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-06-18].
4.5.2 Persistent Accessibility Settings: User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A)
Suggested by JA + GL
RESOLUTION: Adopted - 4.5.2 Persistent Accessibility Settings: User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A)
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update document to update 4.5.2 to " 4.5.2 Persistent Accessibility Settings: User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A) " [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-197 - Update document to update 4.5.2 to " 4.5.2 Persistent Accessibility Settings: User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A) " [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-06-18].
GL: we need to restore to the defaults
<AllanJ> ACTION: JA create 4.5.6 restore to default settings accessibility. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-198 - Create 4.5.6 restore to default settings accessibility. [on Jim Allan - due 2009-06-18].
RESOLUTION: JA: Agreed, will create for next time and add to survey.
GL: Suggests Harmonise 4.5.3 Accessibility User Profiles: The user can save and retrieve multiple sets of user agent preference settings. (Level AA) to ISO wording.
<Greg> Here is wording from ISO 9241-171:
<Greg> 8.2.5 Provide user-preference profiles
<Greg> Software should enable users to create, save, edit and recall profiles of preference settings, including input
<Greg> and output characteristics, without having to carry out any restart that would cause a change of state or data.
<Greg> NOTE 1 For systems that provide access for multiple users, such as library systems, conversion back to a default
<Greg> profile can be advisable.
<Greg> NOTE 2 It is often useful to be able to access the preference settings over a network. Doing this in a secure way would
<Greg> preserve privacy especially for people who are worried about revealing the fact that they have a disability.
<Greg> NOTE 3 It is preferable to minimize the need to restart the system or application in order for changes in user interface
<Greg> settings to become effective.
<Greg> EXAMPLE 1 Platform software allows each user to save global settings for font size, sound volume, and pointercontrol
<Greg> settings that apply everywhere on the system.
<Greg> EXAMPLE 2 A software application allows users to configure and save settings for font size and style within a
<Greg> particular window.
<Greg> EXAMPLE 3 The profile for a public library system is modified for the needs of a current user but returns to default
<Greg> values when that user is finished.
<Greg> EXAMPLE 4 For a person completing an on-line process who has to make adjustments to
<Greg> the accessibility feature to
<Greg> reduce errors, restarting the operating system or the user agent would cause loss of work.
RESOLUTION: NOT RESOLVED CONTINUE NEXT TIME...
Cursory - looks as though not.
HS: Can do any
KP: can do East Coast
JA: East Coast?
GL: East Coast OK as long as it is in Q4
JA: Some Good Interest already.
JS: No West coast Responsibility
RESOLUTION: UNRESOLVED - To Be Discussed.
JS: We need to give 8 weeks notice.
JA: So August / September
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Ant/Any/ FAILED: s/Ant/Any/ Succeeded: s/Opjections/Objections/ Succeeded: s/Gl/GL/ Succeeded: s/BE/Be/ Found Scribe: Harper_Simon Found ScribeNick: sharper Default Present: Jeanne, +1.617.325.aaaa, sharper, Jim_Allan, Henny, +1.425.895.aabb, Kim, Greg, Mark_Hakkinen Present: Allan_James Harper_Simon Spellman_Jeanne Swan_Henny Hakkinen_Mark Patch_kim Lowney_Greg Regrets: Jan_Richards Kelly_Ford Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0090.html Got date from IRC log name: 11 Jun 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-ua-minutes.html People with action items: 4.5.6 create gl ja js restore WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]