W3C

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 9-Jun-09

09 Jun 2009

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Mike_Dean, csma, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, hak, Harold, AxelPolleres?, Gary
Regrets
MichaelKifer, AdrianPaschke, JosDeBruijn, ChanghaiKe
Chair
Chris Welty
Scribe
DaveReynolds

Contents


 

 

<ChrisW> sandro?

<ChrisW> Agenda:

<csma> list items

<sandro> sorry, no tracker for now.

<ChrisW> we're all set

<ChrisW> ok

<sandro> and not much of a www.w3.org. (it's under massive (probably accidental) assault at the moment.)

<ChrisW> yes, very very slow

<ChrisW> and you want to host ontologies.....

<sandro> :-)

<sandro> I gather we're getting > 5000 requests per second for /TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd from many different locations. Fun fun.

<sandro> csma, I suggest you invest in a local copy. perhaps you can load it once, then take a pen and paper and write it down, for future reference?

<ChrisW> sandro, can you get to the actions list?

<ChrisW> Scribe: DaveReynolds

<sandro> trying, Chris

<scribe> scribenick: DaveReynolds

<csma> I got it

<ChrisW> i got it

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jun/att-0036/2009-05-26-rif-minutes.html

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve minutes of May 26 telecon

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve minutes of May 26 telecon

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jun/att-0027/rif-telecon-090602.html

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve minutes of June 2 telecon

<ChrisW> next item

Liason

Sandro: OWL WG has CR meeting tomorrow

csma: Paul sent email message regarding PRR meeting which will discuss RIF/PRR alignment
... suggestion for RIF to be concrete syntax for PRR

Admin

Action Review

<csma> yes

action-837 - started process of listing questions, action still open

<csma> 833 continued :-(

action-830 closed

action-829 completed (by Chris)#

action-828 pending-review

<csma> will do it right now

<csma> continued

<csma> and continued

action-777 closed (no long needed)

<csma> 827 is complete

<hak> continued ...

<scribe> Pending review reviews ..

action-836 closed

action-835 closed

action-834 closed

action-823 - a few outstanding items?

Editorial question on abridged compact URIs? Axel believes it to have been done.

Reference to symbol spaces also done.

action-823 closed

action-819 closed

action-765 closed

action-762 closed

LC Pubs

Chris: Core is complete, all pending items in resolution have been completed and reviewed.
... BLD is complete except for comment on slight inconsistency in treatment of empty groups.

<trackbot> ACTION-823 Review changes to BLD closed

<trackbot> ACTION-819 Add append to DTB closed

<trackbot> ACTION-765 Make the references be to XML schema 1.1 in all RIF documents closed

<trackbot> ACTION-762 Amends the XML schema for Core. closed

Chris: EBNF says groups can be empty, but not explicitly covered in math english and semantics

<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to update groups in BLD syntax and semantics by today [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-838 - Update groups in BLD syntax and semantics by today [on Harold Boley - due 2009-06-16].

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to amend BLD treatment of empty groups to be consistent [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-839 - Amend BLD treatment of empty groups to be consistent [on Harold Boley - due 2009-06-16].

Harold: [discussion with Sandro on wiki formatting problems with the sublist, currently not valid html, Sandro will look at it]

Chris: SWC all actions closed except for "fix or remove proof" (action-831)

<LeoraMorgenstern> They should be marked as not having been checked.

<LeoraMorgenstern> This makes it more understandable if a mistake is later found.

<LeoraMorgenstern> (Just a note saying that they have not yet been checked, but will be checked in the future.)

Dave not as scribe - agreed leave them there but marked.

<AxelPolleres> +1 to leave the proofs.

csma: leave the proofs in there to allow people to check

<LeoraMorgenstern> In my experience, proofs that seem okay but have not been checked almost always are later found to have errors.

<Harold> "This proof is at risk" ;-)

<LeoraMorgenstern> Harold, I think that is too strong. ;)

<ChrisW> ACTION: chrisw to check with Jos about publishing proofs anyway [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - chrisw

<ChrisW> ACTION: chris to check with Jos about publishing proofs anyway [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-840 - Check with Jos about publishing proofs anyway [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-06-16].

Chris: DTB, all done?

Sandro: current refers to wiki page for rdf:PlainLiteral which is on a separate wiki so xref needs to be changed to template. Sandro will fix.

Axel: have editor's note that PlainLiteral type is at risk, should we remove it?

Sandro, Chris: yes remove it.

Chris: PRD. Issue on equivalence of two forms of describing the condition semantics (operational, declarative).
... could leave both and see if anyone spots the difference.
... second PRD issue, safeness

csma: would like version of Core safeness definition which is more easily extensible to PRD

<AxelPolleres> AT RISK notes for rdf:PlainLiteral have been removed: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=DTB&diff=10137&oldid=10092

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD_Safeness_Bottomup

<AxelPolleres> ... in DTB

csma: attempted bottom up definition of safeness based on Core definition, intended to be equivalent to Jos' definition in Core then extension to PRD

<AxelPolleres> ... remaining Editor's Notes, AFAIK were agreed to remain in the LC version.

csma: discussed with Jos, corrected some ambiguities, Jos would agree with using this form for definition in Core if it checks out
... Jos may be able to check the definition tomorrow
... if that's not possible, then fallback is to use Gary's definition

Chris: if change definition tomorrow there will be no time to check before publication

Csma: it is a short definition (< 1A4 page), same approach as core but starts from elements and compose instead of reverse

Gary: happy so long as the PRD definition can be seen as an extension of Core but not been able to review csma's proposal

Chris: suggest publish what we have now, if later change both Core and PRD definitions then regard it as just a bug fix since the new version is intended to be equivalent

csma: not happy with have the full dense definition of safeness in PRD for the point of the PRD audience, so have the bulk in Core is preferable.

Gary: so the proposal is the change the definition in Core to use csma's bottom up style?

cmsa: yes

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD_Safeness_Bottomup

Chris: would need people to review both Core and PRD versions by tomorrow

<ChrisW> ACTION: Gary to review new safeness [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-841 - Review new safeness [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> ACTION: daveR to provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - daveR

<ChrisW> ACTION: dave to provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-842 - Provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> ACTION: csma to remove current PRD safeness definition, and prepare to "plug in" new one [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-843 - Remove current PRD safeness definition, and prepare to "plug in" new one [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> PLAN: use new safeness text in CORE and PRD if approved by all reviewers by tomorrow (6/10), otherwise go with Gary's text in PRD and leave CORE as is

rdf:text

Chris: we approved subject to Axel's review and Axel was OK with it.

Test Cases!

Sandro: aim to publish LC documents Thursday

Chris: outstanding action of improving description of chaining strategies test cases, should review those

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Chaining_strategy_numeric-add_1

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Chaining_strategy_numeric-add_2

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Chaining_strategy_numeric-subtract_1

<csma> Yes, it is in Core

<mdean> I've got another telecon

Gary: numeric-add-1 is safe and should be labelled as Core

<csma> numeric-substract-2 should be Core too

<Harold> RE: Created ACTION-838 - Update groups in BLD syntax and semantics by today [on Harold Boley - due 2009-06-16]. DONE.

Chris: for numeric-subtract-1 the final "Note ..." part of the description seems like it is another test case.

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Chaining_strategy_numeric-subtract_2

<csma> ... is in Core

Chris so action-581 is closed

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Forward_Chaining

<ChrisW> ACTION: stella go over test cases for core/bld/prd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-844 - Go over test cases for core/bld/prd [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-06-16].

<csma> Looks good to me. At least, it is safe

<csma> According to all the definitions of safe that I understand :-)

Chris: suggest extending definition to explain why this version is safe

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve test case Factorial Forward Chaining

<ChrisW> From RIF

<ChrisW> Jump to: navigation, search

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve test case Factorial Forward Chaining

<ChrisW> +1

<StellaMitchell> +1

<Harold> +1

<AxelPolleres> +1

csma: the three factorial examples should cross link via SeeAlso

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve test case Factorial Forward Chaining

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Relational

<StellaMitchell> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/YoungParentDiscount_1

Axel: this is a test case for the guard predicates and uses old syntax

Chris: with this data the second rule will not fire, is it worth adding something to trigger that, e.g. someone with age as a string.

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/YoungParentDiscount_1

<ChrisW> +1

<StellaMitchell> +1

Should this be in Core?

<csma> no

Gary: no, can't have membership in conclusion

<Harold> +1

<LeoraMorgenstern> 1

+1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<LeoraMorgenstern> I mean, +1

<Gary> +1

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/YoungParentDiscount_1

<ChrisW> NEXT TELECON: TWO WEEKS (JUNE 23)

Chris: move to new telecon schedule, so next in two weeks
... want people to review outstanding test cases for next telecon

<ChrisW> ACTION: csma to review All_Builtins, Assert, and AssertRetract [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-845 - Review All_Builtins, Assert, and AssertRetract [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Proposed

<ChrisW> ACTION: DaveReynolds to review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - DaveReynolds

<ChrisW> ACTION: Dave to review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-846 - Review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Harold to review Class Membership and Frames test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action13]

<AxelPolleres> I still owe the all-builtins use case completion... there is an action alredy.

<ChrisW> ACTION: Stella to review RDF Combination subclass test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action14]

<ChrisW> Leora to review NestedLists and NotAssertRetract test cases

<ChrisW> ACTION: Leora to review NestedLists and NotAssertRetract test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action15]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-847 - Review Class Membership and Frames test cases [on Harold Boley - due 2009-06-16].

<trackbot> Created ACTION-848 - Review RDF Combination subclass test cases [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-06-16].

<trackbot> Created ACTION-849 - Review NestedLists and NotAssertRetract test cases [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Chris to review Element Equality, and List* test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action16]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-850 - Review Element Equality, and List* test cases [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Sandro to review Malformed Lists, Modify, Modify loop, and Modify noloop test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action17]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-851 - Review Malformed Lists, Modify, Modify loop, and Modify noloop test cases [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-06-16].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Gary to review Multiple* test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action18]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-852 - Review Multiple* test cases [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-06-16].

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: chris to check with Jos about publishing proofs anyway [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to review Element Equality, and List* test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: chrisw to check with Jos about publishing proofs anyway [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: csma to remove current PRD safeness definition, and prepare to "plug in" new one [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: csma to review All_Builtins, Assert, and AssertRetract [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: dave to provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Dave to review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: daveR to provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: DaveReynolds to review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Gary to review Multiple* test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: Gary to review new safeness [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to amend BLD treatment of empty groups to be consistent [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to review Class Membership and Frames test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: harold to update groups in BLD syntax and semantics by today [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Leora to review NestedLists and NotAssertRetract test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: Sandro to review Malformed Lists, Modify, Modify loop, and Modify noloop test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: stella go over test cases for core/bld/prd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Stella to review RDF Combination subclass test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html#action14]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/06/09 16:30:29 $

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/PR/CR/
Succeeded: s/forms/forms of describing the condition semantics (operational, declarative)/
Succeeded: s/definition/safeness definition/
Found Scribe: DaveReynolds
Inferring ScribeNick: DaveReynolds
Found ScribeNick: DaveReynolds
Default Present: Mike_Dean, csma, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, hak, Harold, AxelPolleres?, Gary
Present: Mike_Dean csma ChrisW DaveReynolds Stella_Mitchell Leora_Morgenstern Sandro hak Harold AxelPolleres? Gary
Regrets: MichaelKifer AdrianPaschke JosDeBruijn ChanghaiKe
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jun/0041.html
Got date from IRC log name: 09 Jun 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/09-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: chris chrisw csma dave daver davereynolds gary harold leora sandro stella

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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