See also: IRC log
need to register as a scribe
<tpa> Scribe: AlexPassant
<tpa> ScribeNick: AlexPassant
<Cloud> that's me
<hhalpin> yes, it's fine
<danbri> resolved; true record
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 27 May 2009 as a true record
<mischat> i can hear you dan
<Cloud> AlexPassant lost his IRC / Skype connection - will reconnect
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to make scribelist [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<danbri> ACTION [CONTINUES]: adam to find a good final report template and port it to the wiki
<hhalpin> 2. General Organization and Task Forces
<danbri> ACTION: adam to find a good final report template and port it to the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<hhalpin> yes I believe so
<danbri> nice work!
<hhalpin> maybe we should look at the task forces
<hhalpin> see what the sign up list is?
cperey: task force
... dataportability and architecture, lot of people interested in privacy
... don't think we have critical mass for other taskforces
<hhalpin> What we lack is people taking leaders and maybe finding goals?
cperey: contacts and privacy together ? cperey objects
<hhalpin> Renato had a good idea for policy...
<karl> trackbot, comment action-20 the matrix is not done yet, but rreck proposed more metadata for evaluating the social networks. The matrix will be done by the end of the week and will be modified step by step on the wiki.
cperey: fear that subjects coevered by e-mail and during the call are quite "w3c-centric" topic
<hhalpin> How can we help this problem, cperey?
cperey: will it change when invited guests will join ?
<hhalpin> One can suggest changes to agenda at any time, and it will change.
<hhalpin> What interests them Christine?
<karl> what are the topics of interests?
<hhalpin> Maybe we could do a go around during the telecon?
cperey: ask who should contribute
<tinkster> Discussions have centred on meta-talk (e.g. XG structure).
<hhalpin> (might take a long time)
cperey: brainstorm a list o questions that we could ask to people that can speak as invited guests (e.g. mobile operators)
<karl> I wonder if people who are not feeling involved have read the charter? and how they fit in this charter
cperey: charter pretty opaque
<mischat> the email discussed can be found here : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jun/0013.html
<tinkster> Scribe: AlexPassant
<tinkster> ScribeNick: AlexPassant'
<rreck> i agree with most of what you said
<AlexPassant> ... concerns about being too much 'W3C' oriented
<AlexPassant> karl: no context task force, no clear definition of the scope
<hhalpin> we could talk about scoping it now....
<hhalpin> if there are suggestions
<AlexPassant> ... we didn't try to define a scope - should do that
<cperey> Claudio attempted to define it
<cperey> is Claudio on the call?
<karl> the shape of content. Do actions to define it, more than talking on how to define it
<hhalpin> Karl -
<AlexPassant> tinkster: no it was not karl previously
<AlexPassant> karl: culture gap, people used to W3C culture
<tinkster> Ah, sorry.
<tinkster> perhaps it was hajons?
<AlexPassant> ... people should make proposals / concrete actions to push their own topics to shape the work
<cperey> I really don't understand the proposal
<hhalpin> I think karl said let's make concrete proposals that interest people.
<cperey> I understand that nothing get
<hhalpin> and then interested people should take "Actions" over these.
<cperey> nothing gets done without activity
<renato> I have started this model....make proposal...on a topic of interest < http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/PolicyCommons>
<danbri> renato, can you queue and talk on the call?
<AlexPassant> ... people that do not feel confortable inside the group should propose topics of interest, actions, etc
<hhalpin> +1 renato's policy proposal, very concrete.
<renato> am only on IRC
<cperey> renato, how will people they know about this topic of interest list?
<cperey> OK. They can also express their interests to us as invited guests
<renato> It has been sent to the list and I will send to the W3C PLING list as well
<hhalpin> looking at christine's proposal
<hhalpin> maybe we could do a survey for the social networking companies out there
<hhalpin> both in this list and outside the list.
<hhalpin> would that be a good idea?
<hhalpin> Would anyone want to take an action on that?
<cperey> sorry, I missed the e-mail on the list. Some people have remarked that there is too much traffic on the list which they do not feel is relevant to them
<hajons> hat would the survey ask for?
<cperey> so they "tune out"
<tpa> hhalpin: can we get a rough idea of what would be in that survey?
<oshani> renato, the policy commons looks like a ACL for SNs
<hhalpin> That's the survey for questions on Christine.
<cperey> thank you Harry!
<renato> Yes, at the moment - most of the SN privacy/permission concepts are ACL like
<cperey> Are there contributions which you can make to, or how would you support the SWXG? If not your company, who do you trust most to contribute to the SWXG in your best interest (general or specific suggestions)?
<AlexPassant> tpa: should send survey to companies
<AlexPassant> ... wait a few days to let people edit the wiki
<hhalpin> maybe people should take a close look at those questions.
<cperey> I think what tim is suggesting is that we make a wiki page iwth questions
<cperey> a survey
<hhalpin> Also, perhaps we could have a different kind of survey for non-profits.
<cperey> compose a survey for social networks to take
<hhalpin> Did people like using WBS Questionnaire?
<hhalpin> I could convert that questions into WBS format?
<cperey> first question is Are there contributions which you can make to, or how would you support the SWXG?
<hhalpin> Or use surveymonkey?
<hhalpin> Once the questions have been talked about for a week
<tpa> either is fine I think
<cperey> second question could be If not your company, who do you trust most to contribute to the SWXG in your best interest (general or specific suggestions)?
<renato> WBS is ok
<cperey> these are just examples
<cperey> of possible questions
<tpa> so new action to work on that questionaire?
<danbri> ACTION: danbri follow up re whether to use survey tool at w3c or elsewhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<cperey> hi Claudio
<cperey> context task force
<AlexKorth> maybe we should consider doing a survey for ourselves, too. I doubt that we all have the same vision on how things are gonna be or should be
<tpa> AlexKorth: didn't we do that at the start of the XG?
<AlexPassant> claudio: try to gave a defintion of context in a previous e-mail
<AlexKorth> tpa, yes but not so vision-focused
<AlexPassant> ... wanted to check if the proposal was coherent with the scope of the XG
<AlexPassant> ... hope to get some feedback
<cperey> yes, there are problems with getting feedback from others on the list as well
<mischat> are you venezia claudio ?
<hhalpin> This is Claudio's proposal I think
<hhalpin> I will make a wiki page for context, separate it from privacy
<mischat> so that is a different mailing list
<hhalpin> give me a second...
<danbri> what's the scripting voodoo
<danbri> Optional Face-to-Face Meeting
<cperey> I think we need separate mailing lists
<hhalpin> 3 Optional Face-to-Face Meeting
<mischat> claudio's email was sent to : email@example.com
<cperey> so that the focus of a group is clear
<MacTed> danbri - http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
<cperey> and there is specific (focused) discussions
<danbri> * Note that W3C TPAC 2009 (Nov 2-6th) and the Internet Identity Workshop are both meeting November (2-5th) this year in Silicon Valley, California.
<danbri> * Should we have our face-to-face there? If so, at which event? How to encourage overlap?
<hhalpin> Basically, TPAC is Nov 2-6th in Santa Clara.
<mischat> which as far as I can tell is not this group's mailing list
<hhalpin> Internet Identity Workshop is 2-5th in Silicon Valley
<danbri> ah, ok can someone sensd a pointer
<hhalpin> Basically 10 minutes away
<hhalpin> Do people want to have an option face-to-face?
<hhalpin> And do it either at TPAC or INternet Identity Workshop?
<hhalpin> In Nov 2009?
<hhalpin> We need to book space now-ish.
<danbri> moving on
<hhalpin> if we wish to do so.
<danbri> Invited Guests
<danbri> vcard telecon
<hhalpin> OK, so no interest in TPAC or Internet Identity Workshop?
<cperey> Dan, I don't believe we have finished discussion topics!
<danbri> "# VCard Invited Guest Telecon went well, with Tim Berners-Lee (W3C), Norm Walsh (Mark Logic), and Peter Mika (Yahoo!) showing up."
<cperey> has anyone responded to the question of a face-to-face meeting?
<cperey> I have something to say on that topic...
<cperey> Chair person: can I come back to the topic of Face to face meeting
<hajons_> I have to check out the Internet Identity Workshop first...
<hhalpin> DanBri - let's finish up face-to-face discussion.
<danbri> who is speaking?
<hhalpin> go for it christine.
<danbri> i think my phone muted
<danbri> for dunno how long
<tpa> danbri, probably, we couldn't hear anything
<danbri> might explain why i felt i was shouting into a cave
<tpa> danbri: glad to have you back :)
<hhalpin> I would suggest we meet at internet identity workshop - there's a lot of people there.
<MacTed> ah! zakim thinks I'm Kingsley :-/
<MacTed> Kingsley_Idehen is really MacTed
<AlexKorth> cperey: I second that
<cperey> I volunteer to organize the workshop
<tpa> I volunteer too
<cperey> in the same fashion as in Barceona
<AlexPassant> danbri: lots of people on the group don't have easy access to resources for traveling
<cperey> yes, for all those reasons
<hhalpin> perhaps chrstine and tim can help communicate to set-up a workshop at internet identity workshop?
<AlexPassant> ... but would be great as lots of people doing social networking in the westcost
<AlexPassant> ... wht about a new W3C workshop ?
<hhalpin> We can put eveyrone in touch.
<cperey> I accept action item
<cperey> if you can articulate it
<hhalpin> ACTION: cperey to draft e-mail about a follow-up workshop [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<AlexPassant> There's a Social Data on the Web workshop at ISWC in november in Washington
<hhalpin> The Internet Identity Workshop is non-W3C, but includes lots of OpenID, OpenSocial, most of non-W3C Social Web people will be there.
<hhalpin> Not sure about its mobile staff.
<AlexPassant> cperey: people can participate in the community in the XG
<hhalpin> Here is Internet Identity Workshop list:
<hhalpin> Of attendees.
<hhalpin> Note almost no W3C people :)
<hhalpin> However, also note 450 dollar registration charge :(
<AlexPassant> ... some people used to academic system (organizing workshops, participating, etc)
<hhalpin> W3C TPAC is 50 bucks!
<AlexPassant> ... not in the commercial cultuer
<tpa> hhalpin: reserved for W3C members though
<AlexPassant> ... people in the commercial culture want to go to a meeting where the meet partners, etc.
<AlexPassant> ... people advancing their business
<tpa> “ Participation in the Technical Plenary is open to participants in good standing in a W3C Working or Interest Group, Advisory Committee Representatives, the TAG, the Advisory Board, Offices staff or Team. ”
<AlexKorth> how much is the identity workshop? does anyone know?
<AlexPassant> you're welcome
<hhalpin> Alex - 450 bucks later.
<hhalpin> 450 bucks last year.
<tinkster> danbri, "drinking cool aid"@en-US = "toeing the party line"@en-GB .
<AlexKorth> thanks harry
<AlexPassant> any people attending semtech ?
<hhalpin> The internet identity workshop has Google, Microsoft, Facebook, looks like a good crowd.
<hhalpin> Problem is that W3C wants an answer on TPAC asap.
<cperey> take what to mailing list?
<hhalpin> They have to book rooms.
<cperey> I'm sorry didn't understand what Harry said
<hhalpin> Ah, OK.
<danbri> Invited Guests
<tinkster> I was
<danbri> anyone here who was on that call...
<hhalpin> anyone wants to TALK.
<AlexPassant> was (mostly listening)
<hhalpin> I can give a quick summary in IRC
<AlexPassant> hhalpin: summary of the vcard / foaf
<AlexPassant> ... meeting in ESWC with martin hepp and renato
<AlexPassant> ... looking into OWL-DL
<AlexPassant> .... one single vcard in RDF
<AlexPassant> ... renato liaison with the vcard community
<AlexPassant> ... very technical and productive
<AlexPassant> ... invited guests are very useful conferences
<renato> Actions from the vCard/RDF meet < http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jun/0000.html>
<mischat> googlewave, is awesome, XMPP > email
<mischat> that sounds great hhalpin
<hhalpin> daniela or chris would be great.
<hhalpin> Could we suggest the 10th?
<hhalpin> Or 17th?
<AlexPassant> danbri: F2F dataportability meeting in semtech
<hhalpin> (goo is in top 100 social network list)
<AlexPassant> ... contacted japanese company goo regarding localisation issues
<hhalpin> (sorry, social networks in top 100 sites on Web as a *whole*)
<hhalpin> How about we create a doodle for their times?
<hhalpin> Who wants that action?
<hhalpin> Sandy Pentland Terry Eagle?
<hhalpin> I thought it was Hakon from Sony-Ericcson, NOT Karl.
<hajons_> yes that is me
<hajons_> I can contact them
<cperey> also, I made suggestions for mobile social networking community operators we could invite
<cperey> as invited guests
<hhalpin> ACTION: hajons ask Terry Eagle and Sandy Pentland for guest telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<hhalpin> ACTION: hajons_ ask Terry Eagle and Sandy Pentland for guest telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<AlexPassant> cperey: will update status action with mobile companies - invite people that already have some exposure to the XG
<hhalpin> ACTION: hakon ask Terry Eagle and Sandy Pentland for guest telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<AlexPassant> ... compagnies involved in the workshop - should be easy to access
<hajons_> hajons_ = Håkan Jonsson
<hhalpin> ACTION: Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<mischat> you can view source of any email, and it will link to where it is archived
<AlexPassant> hhalpin: e-mails to the list automatically archieved w/ URI, etc
<danbri> shall we celebrate this by closing the action?
<hhalpin> ACTION [CLOSED]: cperey to add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] cperey to add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<hhalpin> ACTION [DONE]: cperey to add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics would be most interesting
<tinkster> Evan P
<tinkster> I don't really know him especially well.
<karl> Evan is in montreal. I can meet him
<karl> or contact him
<tinkster> Know Sarven Capadisili better, also from Control Yourself.
<danbri> good idea
<hhalpin> ACTION: karl to contact Evan over OpenMicroblogging and W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
<hhalpin> We're close to end of time but I'd be happy to go over 15 minutes to finish agenda...
<cperey> two minutes left guys
<danbri> I was running from the agenda, "Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-06-03T13:00-15:00Z (See your local time) " in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html
<AlexPassant> hhalpin: 2 items: user stories + uses cases
<danbri> which looked like 2h
<tpa> it does look like 2h
<hhalpin> Formally adjourn
<cperey> I'm signing off
<hhalpin> But lets keep talking if people interested.
<tpa> can we keep the matrix for next week?
<tpa> I'd be interested in that but can't stay on
<tpa> cool, thanks hhalpin
<danbri> yep matrix next week
<tpa> bye guys
<hhalpin> 5. Creating User Stories on the Wiki
<AlexPassant> karl: tries to stay focused with concrete use cases
<hhalpin> I was thinking in particular at some point we try to transform the user-stories into a use-case document, and get some "best practices" out of it.
<AlexPassant> ... willing to change the document to comply to the W3C framework
<hhalpin> If we had 10 best practices and then could run them against the social network matrix, that would be cool.
<hhalpin> Feedback for users?
<hhalpin> Service providers?
<hhalpin> So, is it for both?
<AlexPassant> danbri: best practices documents wrt names, gender, etc
<AlexPassant> hhalpin: use-cases on how data is managed / should be on the web
<AlexPassant> ... should be quite useful
<AlexPassant> ... not a normal use-cases document but might be more useful for people
<AlexPassant> ... empirical study
<danbri> karl, i think i showed http://search.cpan.org/dist/Net-Flickr-Backup-2.6/ to you already...
<hhalpin> +1 putting document for wiki
<karl> ACTION: karl to put the document on data independence http://bit.ly/freedata on the SWXG wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-swxg-minutes.html#action11]
<AlexPassant> ... different points of view (user, business people, developer, etc)
<AlexPassant> ... explain what we man by portability, context, privacy, etc
<hajons_> i'm on the phone too
<hajons_> zakim didn't see me
<danbri> (hmm "Your 360 Blog is being exported to your new profile and this may take a few minutes. You will receive an email when it is ready." ...some stuff can be moved)
<hhalpin> does that make sense?
<hhalpin> update the matrix every "x" months
<hhalpin> OK, take care everyone!
<AlexKorth> bye, have fun at ESWC
<renato> harry - just a slow network on Crete!
<renato> ....real slow....