See also: IRC log
<mhausenblas> hi there
<mhausenblas> not sure if we have a fixed agenda (didn't see one) ...
<mhausenblas> so FYI, after last telecon I took TimBL's http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont# ontology and turned it into a diagrams
<mhausenblas> this may help us today
What is an example of an IR that is not time generic?
Are time generic and time specific mutually exclusive?
TimBL: Let's try where they're disjoint.
Michael: How about if we look for an example of each of the classes?
<timbl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2009May/0071.html is time-specific
<timbl> http://www.w3.org/TR/ is time-generic
time-specific = has same representations at all times?
<dbooth> forall time t1, t2 and any other request inputs i1, i2, f(t1, i1)=f(t2, i2).
A resource can be updated, but if it's time specific, then the update doesn't lead to changes in the representations?
<dbooth> hmm, the rule that I just gave also fixes it over other inputs. Not sure that was the intent.
<dbooth> Okay, lemme try again: forall time t1, t2 and for any input i, f(t1, i) = f(t2, i).
<mhausenblas> wondering if the TAG finding http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html is of any help (and/or has been taken into account so far)
if time specific, then when i do an http operation, then i don't need to redo a GET, because it's not changing
(that was me recording TimBL)
<timbl> It does highliht the ,medium as a dimension.
<timbl> (print, laptop, mobile, screen etc)
<timbl> mh, the arrows in the diagram at the bottom of the finding above are links, not relationships.
<timbl> into design issues
<alanr> watch out: two spellings (capitalization) of [tT]imeSpecificResource and [cC]ontentTypeSpecificResource
David, your "for all time..." needs to be qualified: the equation need only hold when both are defined.
<timbl> yes, property and class
TimBL: a GR is *not* determined solely by its representations
<dbooth> jar, when both what are defined?
<alanr> just the class/subclass relations
both f(t1, i) and f(t2, i)
<dbooth> hmm, interesting point.
can the set of all r such that r is a representation of g (for some g) be infinite?
TimBL: Can be.
... When we measure it via HTTP, we can only make a finite number of measurements.
<timbl> E.g my blog can contain an ad which has a random integer generated at run time which is unbounded.
<timbl> One deosn't normally
There is a relationship between the server and the generic resource
<dbooth> jar; What do I learn about the resource by doing a GET?
<dbooth> dbooth: You learn what one of its representations is.
What do I learn about a generic resource by doing a GET?
I learn that the returned entity is a rep of the resource, right?
Trust is orthogonal to authority, right?
<timbl> if the returns status was 200
TimBL: Happy to not talk about
authority issues just now
... You seem to think the ontology as if it exists in isolation
could someone scribe?
<dbooth> timbl: by sticking RDF in the metadata about a document (indicating that the resource is time-specific IR) then I know that there is no need to fetch it again later.
The boundary around an ontology is arbitrary
(that was TimBL)
Sorry dbooth. you were on the q
TimBL: The ontologies aren't in a stack
<dbooth> Here's a little more I wrote for IRC that pertains to earlier discussion:
<dbooth> I have treated ftrr:IR as a function of two inputs (Time x Request), but if desired we could break the Request input into separate inputs such as: Language, ContentType, Client, OtherRequestInput.
<dbooth> Then each *-specific resource would just be holding the representations constant across different values of that input. So a language-specific resource would be:
<dbooth> forall Language l1, l1, and any Time t and ContentType ct and Client c and OtherRequestInput o: f(t, l1, ct, c, o) = f(t, l2, ct, c, o).
jar: Does there exist a GR g such that there is no R with R a representation of g (at any time)
(In Roy's model, the answer is yes.)
TimBL: Boundary case we don't care about.
E.g. something you can PUT or POST to, but you never get a 200
michael: Not sure that's a border case
I get confused because we go back and forth between ontology and protocol
TimBL: It would be mathematically useful to have a GR that no reps.
e.g. no one has written one yet.
<timbl> Not practically useful
Could you define G = the top resource? (every representation is a rep of G?)
TimBL: Yes, but not useful
So utility is not a requirement of a GR.
TimBL: Bad ideas are not outlawed
by the ontology
... but in webarch, we say that consistency is a good idea [?]
can't we let the market decide?
TimBL: society will hold you to what you serve according to what it demands
<mhausenblas> Michael will take care of organising the next telecon on 26 May
<alanr> Here is a class tree with labels that describe how I understand what the intent is: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=genont-different-labels.png
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