28 Apr 2009


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+1.216.445.aaaa, TimBL, Alan, Stuart, mhausenblas, jar, dbooth



Previous: 2009-04-14 http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html

<scribe> Scribenick: mhausenblas

JAR diagram 5


view-source: http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#TimeSpecificResource


<jar> tabulator can't view 'ont'

<alanr> another browser on that ontology: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/browser/?session=120ecdd6dcf-1284-120ecdd8d27

jar: yes, genont:Version rename to genont:TimeSpecificResource
... added some more stuff now in no 5 (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0006.html)

<jar> New in diagram #5: REST 'resource' and REST 'state'

grounding in http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/

<jar> Need research: Is a "response" just the bits, or is it an event? Important distinction.

<jar> We could have both classes: response as bits (can be sent multiple times), response as event (happens only once).

has part = = dcterms:isPartOf

<timbl> (Stuart, HATEOS?)

<Stuart> Tim: was there along side it: Hypertext As The Engine Of Application State - one of the so-called REST style architectural principles

<alanr> http ontology in the manchester browser: http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/browser/classes/?session=120ecdd6dcf-1284-120ececaee7

<jar> timbl: There's a limit to the extent to which we have to tie these things [6 spokes] together.

<jar> jar: 6 spokes in diagram #5

<alanr> is there more than a single mention of "network data object" in rfc2616?

<jar> using other words.. i think so

<alanr> what are the other words?

<jar> timbl: inclined not to try to handle all these different things

<timbl> So let's not try t pin down a network data object. We could say it is the same as aw3:IR but to bring the whole discussion itno the HTTP community when REST has left it undefined will be big time-spender.

<timbl> and not necessary.


<alanr> do we agree that we will keep terms out of the ontology if we aren't going to pin them down?

<alanr> "tim doesn't want to get hung up on definitions" is that true?

<timbl> I think we can work with aw3:IR = gen:GenericResource.

<alanr> "it's a fallacy to think that you can pin down in english what things mean"

<jar> timbl: definitions are a good idea to a certain extent. fallacy to imagine you can pin down anything since english words themselves can be used in different ways.

<jar> timbl: show how it works in a protocol

<alanr> combination of english + mathematics = adequate definition

<jar> timbl: crisply define using mathematics.

<jar> dbooth: This view is consistent with the goal of contrasting these various models

<jar> timbl: aw3:IR is the same as generic resource

aw3: IR owl:sameAs gen:GenericResource.

<timbl> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

<timbl> w3:IR owl:sameAs <http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#InformationResource>.

<jar> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#ContentTypeGenericResource

<alanr_> By design a URI identifies one resource. We do not limit the scope of what might be a resource. The term "resource" is used in a general sense for whatever might be identified by a URI. It is conventional on the hypertext Web to describe Web pages, images, product catalogs, etc. as “resources”. The distinguishing characteristic of these resources is that all of their essential characteristics can be conveyed in a message. We identify this set as “informati

<alanr_> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/

<alanr_> I'd be happy with that :)

Michael: wondering if we should step back and start from http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont

<alanr_> is "the bible" an information resource?

I'd volunteer to draw a diagram with nodes and arrows and then cross-check with jar#5

<alanr_> pointer to memo?

<alanr_> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html

<jar> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic

<alanr_> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic sameAs http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html ?

<alanr_> "A URI represents a resource" -> "A URI denotes a resource"?

<alanr_> in the memo, there is a list of successively specific resources and dimensions of genericity. What is the dimension of genericity from each to the next? From 2->3 it is language? What is it for 1->2 and 3->4?

<jar> timbl: It's absolutely clear, if you ask cwm, that 2 is not a document

<alanr_> FYI: In IAO there is information_artifact class, and is_about relationship. information_artifacts are exactly those things that stand in an is_about relationship to some other entity. We have some subproperties of is_about well defined, but definition of is_about at the top level is not yet pinned down.

<alanr_> What we are missing here, IMO, is the is_about relationship

<jar> who has authority to decide that 2 (for example) is not a timbl:information-resource?

<Stuart> hmmm... integers.... as set of equivalence classes under the relation "hasTheSameQuantity"... doesn't seem like an information resource... however, the numerals which stand for particular equivalence class might well be.

<jar> David: To what extent is it valid to choose whether something should be considered an IR or not?

<alanr_> and I would ask what is 1 about?

<jar> timbl: Out of order. Let's adjourn or continue.

<alanr_> jar is chair

<alanr_> whoops

<jar> michael is chair.

<alanr_> guess that settles it for me?

<jar> adjourned

<alanr_> and all.


<alanr_> bye everybody

Summary of Action Items

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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0012.html
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