See also: IRC log
<jar> z
<jar> can you hear me?
<scribe> Scribenick: mhausenblas
<timbl_> BA7059
<timbl_> sunday arriving around 21:00
<timbl_> http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont.n3
http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
<jar> Tried to open ont.n3 in firefox with Tabulator loaded. Not recognized.
http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Generic.html
<timbl_> ont.n3
<timbl_> http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/rdf
http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/n3
<timbl_> http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/n3
is gen:InformationResource owl:sameAs http-sem:TimBLGenericResource ?
<jar> TimBL, if you asked a librarian "are you happy with this ontology" (genont)
the two ontlogies gen: and http-sem should be cross-referenced
<timbl_> F__R
RRBR
FRBR
<jar> Maybe they would say it wouldn't work in their world.
<jar> Maybe they wouldn't talk about the Bible at all.
<jar> ... Maybe they would only talk about it as published in a particular way.
<jar> TimBL: What I (TimBL) meant in the generic resources memo is obvious to me.
<timbl_> Yes
<jar> 'generic resource' is the same in the memo and in the ontology.
<timbl_> gen:InformationResource owl:sameAs http-sem:TimBLGenericResource
TRUE: gen:InformationResource owl:sameAs http-sem:TimBLGenericResource
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/jar-diagram-4.pdf
<jar> Thus http://rdfs.org/ns/node/22, 'generic resource', and genont:GenericResource are all the same.
yes, that's how I understood it
<jar> oops... page not found... I mean 'TimBLGenericResource' as seen at http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem/html
<timbl_> s/temporal part/temporal version/
<jar> michael: Let's say "grounding" not "definition" because some people find "definition" to imply more rigor than we want to have
rather than has temporal part use XXX
<timbl_> I prefer "has temporal version" to "has temporal part"
<jar> TimBL quibbles with "has temporal part"
<timbl_> gen:timeSpecific i sthe relationship
<timbl_> if I understand it
+1 for has temporal version
<jar> ("temporal part" is from BFO I think)
<timbl_> It is clear to me that jar:hasTemporalPart owl:sameAs gen:timeSpecific
http-sem: TimeInvariantResource owl:sameAs onto-gen:TimeSpecificResource
<timbl_> s/it is clear/it seems/
<timbl_> yes
<jar> I'm looking for a relationship R that relates A to B where every rep of A is a rep of B, and at some time t every rep of A is a rep of B (at t), and A doesn't vary through time
<timbl_> agree with http-sem:TimeInvariantResource owl:sameAs onto-gen:TimeSpecificResource
<jar> something like that anyhow.
<jar> OK
<jar> Top 2 boxes of diagram are aligned with terms in genont
<jar> R = genont:timeSpecific
<timbl_> Content-encoding
<timbl_> Comtent-type
<jar> TimBL is bothered because 'encoding' means something else to him
<timbl_> Please though remove the TIMBL "Fixed resource" from the jar diagram.
<jar> TimBL: 'rest representation' is not akin to 'fixed resource'
<jar> jar: But they're in 1-1 correspondence
<jar> TimBL: a fixed resource is something id'd by a URI, and is a snapshot of e.g. the persistence policy as of today
<jar> ... When you do fetch today, you'll get a given set of bits
<jar> ... The bits are not the resource
<jar> ... Fixed res never changes its info content
<jar> ... But the headers can change
<jar> ... Maybe the date changes
<jar> jar: The content-type is part of the FR's identity, yes?
<jar> TimBL: The rep is the http entity, is the same rep
<jar> jar: Are FR and rep in 1-1 correspondence?
<jar> TimBL: OK, yes, let's assume that
<jar> jar: HTTP entity = representation
<jar> ... There are response headers that are not entity headers
<timbl_> There is a 1:1 relationship between fixedresource and response.
<jar> There are natural mappings in both directions
<jar> a FR has only one rep, thus one can map a FR to its rep
<jar> given any rep, one can define a FR that has that rep
other examples for fixed resources are: VCS, Internet Archive, microblogging posts
<jar> TimBL: Beware of FR assertions that might not be true
also: Wiki versions
<jar> TimBL: Style sheet may change, banner ads may change, in which case the thing isn't a FR
<jar> alan: If you fix a spelling mistake it's also not a FR
<timbl_> Specifically source code repositories mught be goo dexample so ffixed resources
<timbl_> data:text/plain;Hello%20World%21
<jar> The resource named by the URI data:text/plain,banana is a FR
<timbl_> great -- we have lots of examples, lets move on
http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswVocabularyDependencies
<jar> I will add another box in the diagram for 'fixed resource', Tim
<timbl_> Why?
<timbl_> You already have one.
what is the relation between http:Message and rfc2616:REsource
<jar> because {rest,awww}representation != fixed resource
http: as of in http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/
<jar> rfc2616 representation is by definition an rfc2616 entity
<jar> according to roy, every entity is a rep, but not nec. of the resource that was requested
<jar> e.g. entity in a 404 is not a rep of requested resource
ok, seems sensible
<timbl_> Yes
<timbl_> If the response if 200, then ...
<timbl_> the entity is a rep of the resource.
<jar> if response is 200, then the entity is a rep of the (state of) the resource
+1
timbl_: carries -> is ?
<jar> TimBL: Not all representations are HTTP. So HTTP entity is a *subclass* of awww:representation
<jar> UML diagram: Arcs are relations that hold between members of the classes (boxes)
<timbl_> No, we change carries to a subclass relationship
<timbl_> a class relationship rather than an instance relationship.
'Representation of information thing' rdfs:subClassOf HTTP entity
<jar> JAR: I will change the arrow from HTTP entity to representation/encoding to be a subclass relation
actually, other way round HTTP Entity is a kind of enconding ....
<timbl_> http:Entity subClassOf awww:Representation.
<jar> i.e. an HTTP is a kind of awww:representation
<timbl_> 'represnattion"
<timbl_> instead of encoding
<jar> alan: What's the relationship between?
'representation' -> 'representing'
<jar> hmm... that shouldn't edit the irc log...
<timbl_> s/is encoded as/has representation/
<timbl_> if you have to
<jar> JAR doesn't like 'awww:representation'... but may use it to respect tim's dislike of 'encoding'
<scribe> ACTION: Michael to update http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem with the findings and agreements from today's meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Update http://rdfs.org/ns/http-sem with the findings and agreements from today's meeting [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-04-21].
<jar> TimBL: the intent of info res and generic resource is the same. same concept
<jar> ... But you can talk about an HTTP resource, a somethingorother endpoint, but that's different
<timbl_> If an HTTP Resource supports POST then it is a HTTPPOstResource which is a subclass o f ServiceEndpoint, maybe.
<jar> michael: Do we have a connection between http-in-rdf and our diagram(s)?
<jar> jar: Is a 'response' the event, or is it the set of events?
<jar> timbl: Dan did a lot of interesting modeling of protocols, just by using links
TimBL: DanC did interesting modelling with HTTP
<jar> ... if one message references another, then it was sent after it
<scribe> ACTION: Query DanC re pointers for HTTP modelling [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Query
<jar> ... Ask Dan about it (but he may have forgotten about it)
<jar> jar: So a coincidentally identical sequence of bits would be a different 'response', yes? (by that notion of 'response')
<jar> michael: Upcoming issues with media fragments working group, also HTTPbis re sub-resources. Should we look into the future?
<jar> ... I know this is coming up
<jar> jar: the ideal of ontology design is that you can deal with new things as they come along
<jar> michael: jquery is more powerful than prototype - powerful javascript library
<jar> ... it's a javascript ajax library, does more
<jar> TimBL: What is prototype?
<jar> michael: I assumed tabulator was using prototype...
next meeting 28 April
(after WWW ;)
[adjourned]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/temporal part/temporal version/ FAILED: s/it is clear/it seems/ Succeeded: s/A (at t)/A/ Succeeded: s/entity/HTTP entity/ Succeeded: s/Encoding/Representation/ Succeeded: s/is encoded as/representation/ FAILED: s/is encoded as/has representation/ Found ScribeNick: mhausenblas Inferring Scribes: mhausenblas Default Present: +1.781.643.aaaa, TimBL, +3539149aabb, Alan_Ruttenberg Present: +1.781.643.aaaa TimBL +3539149aabb Alan_Ruttenberg MichaelHausenblas JonathanRees Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-awwsw/2009Apr/0002.html Got date from IRC log name: 14 Apr 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/14-awwsw-minutes.html People with action items: michael query WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]