Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

11 Mar 2009


See also: IRC log


Art, Doug, Olli




<trackbot> Date: 11 March 2009

<shepazu> sigh

<shepazu> ISSUE-44?

<trackbot> ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of events and the Window object? -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44

<smaug> hmm, "passcode not valid"

yeah, me too

agenda says "3661#"

<smaug> haa

<scribe> Scribe: Art

<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

Agenda Review

AB: agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
... do other people typically join this call?

DS: Travis from Microsoft used to join
... but we don't have to wait for him to start the meeting

AB: Charles created this agenda; mostly Actions, Issues and Pub plans
... any change requests?

[ None ]

confirm last week's minutes

AB: any objections to confirming last week's minutes?
... <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/att-0003/D3E-webapps-090303.html>

[ No Objections ]

Action item review - Due this week

AB: All of the D3E Issues and Actions are available at:
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
... I noticed 5-6 of the issues are in the RAISED state
... Briefly, what process is used to move an Issue from Raised to Open?
... Just curious (we don't use RAISED state in Widgets)

DS: raised means the issue is recorded
... it is changed to Open when the group agrees to take it on
... then we issue Actions against the Open Issue

<scribe> ... Pending Review means the issue is still open and pending the actions related to it are closed

ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the Specification - schepers

AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1

DS: that was recorded a long time ago to test Tracker
... I should close just close it
... I will change the Due Date to the 18th
... I haven't uploaded my changes yet

AB: I noticed the latest ED was quite old

DS: yes; I'm still getting back to it
... I will check in a new version before the next call (Mar 18)

ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 - schepers

AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312

DS: I have some wording in my draft
... I'll complete this action when I make my upload next week
... I will define a default action for the load event

OP: default action?

DS: no, sorry, I meant default behavior
... and let the individual specs override how the load event works
... i.e. how it is dispatched
... and what its target is

OP: yes, I think you are correct about the target

DS: we may have to talk more about the Window
... I'll have to redo the chart to include Window

OP: Window is the parent node above the document

DS: so bubble goes up to window?

OP: yes
... check the mail around ISSUE #44
... it is dispatched to Window but its target is Document

DS: need to be careful about HTML specific behavior
... don't want SVG and HTML doing diff things

<smaug> all the other events except load propagates from document to window

<shepazu> ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-18].

DS: if we put this in D3E it would get folded into SVG

OP: we can talk about default view and not Window

<shepazu> where window == defaultView

ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers

AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318

DS: this is related to our previous discussion

AB: so what do we do with this then?

DS: leave it open

ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event implementation - Olli

<smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html

AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319

OP: I sent some emails to the list today

<shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html

OP: no one supports everything
... Whenever mutation listeners are used, the relevant DOM operations slowdown a lot in all browser engines
... I've been talking to the ARIA people

<smaug> "chaals> roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a performance hit, they do something that seems useful"

AB: how do we reflect Chaals' comments?

DS: one way is mutation events as defined in DOM2
... i.e. keep them as they exist
... could find intersection of the browser and throw away others
... could define new model
... would like to have a more performant model
... and define a mapping from the new model to the existing definition
... and deprecate those that aren't implemented by all of the browsers

OP: Jonas made a proposal last summer

AB: do you have a pointer to that proposal?

<smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0146.html

<shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0174.html

AB: so only 3 of the 7 mutation events are implemented by these three browsers?

OP: yes, that's the case
... the slow down is amazing; used a deep tree

DS: the slowdown is actually a big usability issue particularly in accessibility use cases
... because there may not be an indication it is occuring
... may need a dedicated ARIA event

OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events if for example it was doing some location stuff

<smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0010.html

<smaug> OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events because it would slow down performance also for people who don't use a11y stuff

OP: the email from Boris indicates the .style change also cause slowdowns

AB: I think Olli completed this action right?

OP: yes I've already closed

ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation events - chaals

AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320
... should we skip this today?

ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)

AB: Issue is: What should D3E say about the window object and where events are fired...
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4

DS: we've already talked about this

AB: this in the RAISED state; is that OK?

DS: yes

AB: anything else on Issue #44?

[ No ]

ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)

AB: issue is: Consider changing ordering/firing of mutation events?
... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39
... any discussion on this issue?

DS: there are no related actions
... Olli, what are your thoughts?

OP: I'd like to get comments from Opera
... I think Jonas wants to change it
... anyone else?

DS: I think Maciej

OP: it's bad for implementations but OK for content authors

DS: but if perf is bad then that's bad for the authors too

OP: not clear when the events should be fired

AB: since Opera hasn't addressed Action #320, seems like we should defer discussion until next week

DS: agree

OP: back to mutation events; chaper 1.7.7 ...
... the grey/gray block text
... why was that added?
... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents

DS: this was added for performance reasons
... in SVG, create element is used to make trees in the DOM but not in the document
... mutation events aren't fired for things that are not in the document

OP: I don't understand why

<shepazu> I propose that we state explicitly in the spec that if there is no event listener registered, and if the event does not have a default handler, then the implementation may choose not to fire an event for that action (which is what browsers do)

AB: any comments on Doug's proposal?

OP: browsers do that for mutuation events
... other events don't slow things down as much

Publication schedule

AB: the question is: Are we still expecting to have a new Editor's draft on 2009-03-18?

DS: yes, that is still the plan
... don't expect it to be ready to publish by then
... This is Action #321 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321

AB: keep it open?

DS: yes

AB: so that would be another WD, right?

DS: yes

AB: any discussion on the LCWD?

DS: no we haven't discussed that yet; one step at a time

OP: events are hard; must get it right and they are core to so many other specs

Other overdue action items?

AB: DOM3E Issues and Actions http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
... what is Carmelo's role?

DS: helping with the test development


AB: anything?

DS: none

OP: none

AB: meeting adjourned

Title: DOM 3 Events Voice Conference

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.133 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/03/11 19:34:48 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/A11Y people/ARIA people/
Succeeded: s/Topic: Publication schedule//
Found Scribe: Art
Found ScribeNick: ArtB
Default Present: Shepazu, Art_Barstow, smaug
Present: Art Doug Olli
Regrets: Charles
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
Found Date: 11 Mar 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html
People with action items: shepazu

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