See also: IRC log
<jdaggett> +1.415.738.aaaa is jdaggett
<glazou> is there someone else on the call ? It's all silent here
<glazou> no, a mac kbd :)
<glazou> I switched to the bright side of the force
<jdaggett> very good!
<glazou> as soon as they're not ancient
<scribe> Scribe: Chris
<scribe> ScribeNick: ChrisL
<fantasai> Arron: We're almost done on our end, and we're starting to upload files to the review server.
arron: nearing completion of our
testsuite and bugun uploading to review server. approx 7k files
need to be reviewed
... ned to share the effort
<dbaron> dbaron has joineed #css
Daniel: How long did that take to write?
Arron: About 3 months
... expect 5-6 months to review
Arron: Not chapter 13, assume Melinda and HP have that covered
<fantasai> Glazou: This test suite is the highest priority of the working group
Daniel: Release of CSS 2.1 is highest charter proiority. Each organisation needs to contribute or else this will never happen
Hakon: This is a public review surely
Elika: Difficult to coordinate
... how to track stus of individual tests,track tests and comments and status.
... previously used mailing list, ok for low volume but not for a ton of tests
... needs a comment tracking system for individual tests
... Peter and I designed such a syste but its not been built
David: There are different types of review needed. Will not get all types on all tests
David: Useful to have public review anythingthey want, but need comment tracking and fixing in a timely manner so we dont get duplicate comments too much
Arron: No problem with timely update to each file
Daniel: maybe a bugzilla with a bug per test
Elika: Its a lot of overhead.
Wiki has less overhead per test, still a lot of hassle. Often
need to comment on multiple tests
... tests come in sets, often a comment applies to multiple tests
Daniel: technical side is less important, needs to be efficient enough that all in WG can contribute to the reviews
David: What VCS is being
... maybe allow people to post patches using a distributed VCS
Elika: Its using subversion at the moment
Hakon: Could we use media wiki?
Daniel: Subversion has command
line plus extensions for MacOS, Windows etc
... eg TortoiseSVN etc. Anyone should be able to use it
Chris: Yes, SVG is a good idea
Hakon: Need to be able to add comments without changingthe files themselves
<sylvaing> technology is not as hard as figuring out how and when a testcase has been reviewed imo
Peter: So we designed a system to do that, database
<szilles> Chris: tests are written in XML with list of statuses and authoring metadata
<szilles> Chris: we used Tracker to deal with comments, as Elika says this was inefficient for multitest comments
<szilles> Chris: we used CVS for the test cases
Hakon: Could do like sorce files with comments at the top to describe changes
Bert: might break some
... Need simple review. Most tests likely correct
Daniel: No, because from selectors we saw that the initially plausible tests ended up with many small changes
Hakon: Get www-style to help and get review comments on those which are wrong
David: Hard is everyone passes a test but its still wrong
Chris: Yes that sort of test is hard to catch
David: Need to link specific issues to affected tests
Steve: One way is to run them against implementations that are known bad. if they stil pass there is an issue
Elika: A wiki has too much
overhead, and performance issues with that many tests.
... so options are bugzilla, tracker, or build something (if done soon)
David: Not convinced the mail list would fail
Elika: Its failing already to track all tests.
David; "has been reviewed already" is not really a binary state
Bert: Need some criterion to move it to the public site
David: Judgement call based on how long tests are around, comfort factor
Bert: Peole only say about tests with problems, not tests they thought were fine
<sylvaing> oops. never mind :)
Daniel: In Selectors test suite this was not an issue. if over several months no-one reported a problem, it still goes in the test suite
Chris: Sometimes approved tests have bugs filed on them and are withdrawn or fixed. its like shipping software
Arron: prefer bugzilla over wiki
or a mail list
... can raise a bug on a range of tests eg background-*
... thats how we do it internally, in a database
Daniel: So do you open a new bug for all reviewed tests?
Arron: No, only failed ones
Daniel: But then you do not know which tests have even been looked at
Elika: Could use bugzilla to track problems but a wiki page where people can put their names against specific tests as being ok
Daniel: Good compromise I think. This is very important, everyone shoudl commit some time to review them
David: Would like to propose patches and commit fixes, do i need permission? Or do it and log that it was done?
Arron: need to be updated somehow
<Bert> (Wiki... or just an HTML page under CVS, the same CVS as the tests themselves?)
<glazou> isn't it http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/CSS/CSS2.1-test-suite/ ?
Peter: Tests currently in SVN
David: Multiple reports of errors and the tests not changing is discouraging for further effort by the public
<plinss> or http://svn.csswg.org/test/
Hakon: yes. Also for 7k files we need a map overview of the overall state
<plinss> and http://svn.csswg.org/viewvc/
Hakon: very useful to have a tool, eg in OOXML and OF they had this same problem
Elika: We have plans for a system but lack time and budget to build it
Peter: i get time here and there but not enough
Hakon: Don't know anyone at Opera who could build that system
Daniel: Dont want to be stuck where we have tests but can't move forward as we want new tools. Have already reviewed tests with no svn, no wiki and it still worked. We need to start. in the worst case a maillost ise nough, with good subject lines
Hakon: So if someone says a thousand tests have a given error
Arron: Then I would fix them and commit in the next few weeks
David: Please encourage bug reporters to submit patches as well
Hakon: OK as long as the patches are tracked
Elika: SVN does that
Hakon: So anyone on www-style can make patches?
Daniel: Make, or apply, patches?
Hakon: i meant commit
Elika: So they would need svn acces, not an issue
Hakon: if we get a crank then we can revert their changes
Elika: So send ok patches and you get SVN access?
David: Somewhere in that area. establishing trust after some good submission on the mailing list
Arron: no issue withanyone on the WG having SVN access straight away.
Daniel: Complex bugs would be discussed on the list first of course
Hakon: What we are not recording is the "ok" remarks
Chris: Elika mentioned a wiki page overview
Daniel: Mailing list is better, just say what has been looked at
Elika: hard to get an overview that way
Daniel: Not going to block the test suite forever. if a trusted review has happened then we go ahead. its trust, not number of reviews
hakon: But we need to track who has reviewed which test
Chris: yes you need to always log the revision number of each test reviewed
Elika so suppose we use the mail list for nowe tosend in reviews and Arron fixes them
Danile: OK as long as there are positive reviews as well as bug reports
Elika: OK so needs test names in subject line
Peter: Our system uses directory structure , svn allows files to be moved so a test can be moved to indicate status
Chris: Thats a big advantage of SVN over CVS
Elika: Moving files does break URIs
Daniel: Lets get started with the mailing list to get started
Peter: Will work on system as time allows
Hakon: Existing documentation on how to review?
Peter: See wiki
<dbaron> CSS2.1-test-suite/incoming/microsoft $ find . -name "*.xht" | wc -l
<dbaron> Are these the 7000 tests we're talking about?
Daniel: Please tell the mailing
list where the documentation is
... Tests are all xht?
<arronei> Yes those are the beginning of the 7000 tests there are still more I need to upload
Elika: Thats the filename that Tantek and Hixie decided on. OK as long as server serves them with correct media type
<plinss> Browsable tests: http://test.csswg.org/source/
<dbaron> arronei, are the ~700 tests from a year or two ago included in those?
Bert: Current CR is 18 months od, lots of errata. good to ipublish a new version with all errata incliuded, and have an empty erratum list again. Suggest publish another CR, no status change just an update
Chris: +1 to that, much easier to read and avoids duplicate bug reports
Arron: Are there diffs?
Bert: Yes, member only but we
could publish it. Not guaranteed to be valid HTML due to the
... no problem
zaki, who is here?
Daniel: Jon had an agenda item on JLTF
John: Coold we get an afternoon for this?
(general agreement, Weds pm)
John: Also please send email if there are things that are needed
Chris: Is there a meeting registration form?
26. Turn left at Kalakaua Ave
27. Kayak across the Pacific Ocean
28. Continue straight
Chris: Two different dates were being discussed. Which is the favoured one?
Daniel: June 3-5 or 24-26
Steve: June 3-5 not good for me
<jdaggett> jdaggett: either is fine
Hakon: Can't do second date
Hotels easier for the earlier dates, due to summer breaks
Daniel; Travel may be cheaper for earlier date too
Elika: Earlier date easier for me
Daniel: OK so we will go with 3-5 June. Sorry, Steve
Resolved: meeting is 3-5 June at Sophia hosted by ERCIM
<Bert> (Summer holidays in France start July 2. Pentecost is Jun 1.)
<plinss> +47 was howcome
<glazou> ChrisL: :I started keeping track of attendees
<fantasai> the other one was then probably me
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/ned/need/ Succeeded: s/Aprox/approx/ FAILED: s/Melin/Melin/ Succeeded: s/melin/Melin/ Succeeded: s/withas/with a / Succeeded: s/stilla/still a/ Succeeded: s/sing/using/ Succeeded: s/ewe/we/ Succeeded: s/od/Or/ Succeeded: s/stat/state/ FAILED: s/isenough/is enough/ Succeeded: s/SVG/SVN/ Succeeded: s/SVG/SVN/ Succeeded: s/biga/big a/ Succeeded: s/Hakn/Hakon/ Found Scribe: Chris Found ScribeNick: ChrisL Default Present: jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, +47.21.64.aacc, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: _jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, +47.21.64.aacc, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog) Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Present+ _jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, Hakon, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: _jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, +1.253.250.aabb, Hakon, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog) Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Present+ _jdaggett, arronei, glazou, plinss, emilyw, Elika, Hakon, ChrisL, Bert, SteveZ, David_Baron, sylvaing, alexmog Present: _jdaggett arronei glazou plinss emilyw Elika Hakon ChrisL Bert SteveZ David_Baron sylvaing alexmog Got date from IRC log name: 21 Jan 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/01/21-css-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]