MW4D F2F Meeting

24 Oct 2008

See also: IRC log


Stephane Boyera (W3C), Lauri Hirvonen (Nokia), Dan Appelquist (Vodafone), Adesina Iluyemi (Invited_Expert), Marie-Claire Forgue (W3C), Vagner Diniz (Nic.br), Jeff Sonstein (RIT), Richard Ishida (W3C), Norbert Lindenberg (Yahoo), Kai Hendry (Invited_Expert), Xu Guibao (China Academy of Telecom)
hendry, adesina





<hendry> scribe hendry

<steph> scribe: hendry

steph: Showing map of FF3 download
... holes in most of Africa (except South Africa)
... eastern europe, middle east
... most people come from developing countries
... how can the Web help & improve their lives?
... Digital divide ... we need to connect people to the Web. Idea: people will have better lives as they are better connected to services
... two approaches: 1) cheap laptops, wifi, wimax (except they not in the field)

2) mobile phones which are deployed

scribe: end of 2008: 90% of the population will be covered with GSM
... example of SMS service to Get the latest market prices

<mib_pnh7rs> Hello, Sina is online

mib_pnh7rs: welcome :)

steph: further examples of mobile banking
... proof-of-concepts people can use simple services
... there are BUTS, huge disconnections, usability, limited impact, handful of success stories
... W3C approach is to get people together and discuss (first goal)
... 2nd goal draft a road map, identify barriers and lower them
... many ways to deploy Web services: sms, voice, widgets, native applications ...
... another point is education
... classes in mobile technologies aren't taught in Universities

jeffs: except we do, to much resistance

hendry: though the Web isn't taught at most universities too

steph: lots of creativity, people think the mobile domain is closed

<marie> hendry: well it's not that easy to develop mobile apps...

<marie> steph: it's easy to develop sms apps

<marie> hendry: difficult to have them deploy by operators in any case

steph: we should address blocked services: for e.g. walled gardens

<marie> ... this is one of the challenges to address in the roadmap

steph: further issues: usability. E.g. widgets give a task orientated approach, which could be very helpful

<Lauri> #mw4d

Lauri: welcome you're connected :)

steph: different approaches

DKA: concerned that widgets are a bit far off. How about using the practices from the MWBP group?

steph: something to look at; widgets on low end phones

DKA: e.g. Opera mini might be offering such an experience

steph: affordability, good news is that some countries offer free data on prepaid deals

DKA: operators should not be villified

Lauri: dobMobi offer free simple mobile services. Though hosting is a problem. So there ideally should be local servers in respective countries.
... suggests deploying in Universities as that's where the best connections generally are

Adesina: data services are rising, esp. in Nigeria (60%)

<steph> slides: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/sb_mwbp/

Adesina: wifi, wimax are being pushed there. Most african countries have GPRS.
... suggests looking at users, health users

Lauri: Education is key; we have examples in Kenya. PC is required to create mobile services.

<mib_pnh7rs> classify end-users into knowledge workers, consumers and enterprise users

<mib_pnh7rs> CDMA is becoming a common data service wireless network

Lauri: however there is an Indian company that develops a tool to create Web services from a mobile

<mib_pnh7rs> Open source software ses to be more affordable and acceptable

Lauri: best phone we manufacturer, can host an httpd service

<mib_pnh7rs> mHealth and mLearning services are major driver for data and SMS in Africa

<mib_pnh7rs> mGovernment services are also on the rise n Africa

steph: moving on: the Audience who are interested in solving this problem, several NGOs
... be good to have people from developing countries participating
... try to have impact in the short term; describing roadmap

<mib_pnh7rs> bUT participation from developing country is still limited, we need researchers, developers and telecom operator from these areas to participate

steph: describes Logistics of group. Group is open. Meeting twice a month by telecon.
... we have an active wiki - next workshop in Africa 1Q2009

<mib_pnh7rs> mib_pnh7rs is Adesina

<marie> sb: CfP ready by end of Nov.

steph: onto Introductions ...

Lauri: veteran of the mobile industry from Nokia. Founded Nokia forum. Working with dotMobi.

<mib_pnh7rs> locally developed contents are essential

Lauri: dotMobi provides many tools that could help our work

DKA: from Vodafone, co-chair MWBP, worked with Lauri on dotMobi, lots of experience of mobile Web, runs Mobile Monday London ...
... organising lots of outreach events. Vodafone will propose David Ashbrook [sp?] to officially represent in the group.

Lauri: Dan also had a great book called "Mobile Web for Dummies"

mib_pnh7rs: (Adesina) is a dentist by training. Interested in the health angle. Member of NEPAD Council; interested in socio-enomic dev in Africa


marie: W3C Team, been involved in mobile web initiative from the start
... help producing lots of outreach material

<steph> Digital World Forum project http://www.digitalworldforum.eu

marie: & events etc.

<Norbert> Norbert Lindenberg, Yahoo internationalization architect, member W3C Internationalization Core WG

Norbert: Y! has some services in India... though no roadmap in Africa as yet

Vagner: experience in promoting mobile services in Brazil

<mib_pnh7rs> Adesina is hoping to provide knowledge on contexts, human and organizational issues and telecom constraints in mobile services adoption and diffussion

Vagner-br: concerned with business models with operators

Xu: working within research. In China 210-million mobile users, 60 million mobile web users. Looking to learn.

jeffs: teaches at RIT, mostly Web oriented, member of MWBP, interested in the Web potential on mobiles

<r12a> Richard Ishida, W3C Internationalization Activity Lead

hendry: Invited expert with mobile experience from serveral different countries. background in free software and web.

<mib_pnh7rs> Adesina is a PhD candidate at the University of Portsmouth, UK

r12a: partic. interested in writing systems ..

Lauri: raises concerns over IDN. Nokia still need to implement it. i18n work is very important to this group.

steph: (going through points of agenda/roadmap)

mib_pnh7rs: need to do more outreach

Lauri: we need to promote mobile solutions

steph: need to identify different actors

marie: we should focus on use cases

mib_pnh7rs: agrees with marie

steph: we have not identified a technical gap yet. we can think of guidelines


aim of the group to develop mobile services for health education ect

A report to detail how tog oa bout designing or developing mobile services in developing countries

a handbook for this is the target

<jeffs> note that Google has made $10m available for "ideas that change the world": http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/annc/20080924_10to100.html

hendry not convince about the a handbook usefulness

not convinced about the a handbook usefulness

what is the real focus technology or web?

Stephane differs on suggestion, the handbook wil focus on expalining technical details on how develop mobile services

<marie> sms, mobile web, voice, widgets, native (java) apps, etc.

So that developers can make informed decisions on technical issues

NGOs use only SMS, the aim is to promote mobile web

Lauri supports book on how to create mobile web

Adesina feels that technical issues are gap identified

limited usage of existing technologies like voice on web and other mobile web services

<jeffs> Google has made $10m available for "ideas that change the world" for its 10^100 project. See: http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/annc/20080924_10to100.html ... perhaps this might be a source of funding for concrete projects with clear audience/goals/outputs

Application such as voice XML is underutilized

Is SMS web or not? a question bothering W3C

discussion on SMS web on

view on SMS as web is divided

Lauri, SMS has picked up in South Africa

voice services are core to people in developing countries

voice as in reading e-mail in the US

Dan- mobile web now combines SMS and web now

<jeffs> see for example http://www.sahana.lk/ and http://www.ushahidi.com/

<marie> danA: look at zipico -> http://www.zipiko.com/

Hendry object to SMS as a web paltform

<jeffs> sms as a guaranteed delivery mechanism

<hendry> if SMS was addressable (URIs) and interfaces between SMS & Web were somewhat stable, I would be happier ...

<jeffs> sms and other services as simply input and output mechanisms to "feed" the Web

Lauri- Cell broadcast is not supported by mobile operators, local P2P communication

Appelquist- says Vodafone tested cell broadcast but cost issues discouraged further expansion, web tech. are equally useful

<jeffs> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wilde-sms-uri-16.txt

is the possibility of mobile2mobile on mobile devices by manufacturers

moving on

technical definition of web will be discussed further later-on

<jeffs> http://www.tuaw.com/2007/10/22/mdns-and-caffeine-how-i-got-bonjour-running-on-my-iphone/

the next topic is nature and capability of mobile devices in dev.countries to access web, the question mark is still there?

trying to find the number of moble web users in Africa

information mobile web users in dev.countries is limited and hard to find

stastistics models are questionable

<marie> what is the resources centre name they are talking about now?

<Lauri> http://www.getjar.com/software

Vodafone still trying to project mobile web users in dev. countries

<steph> summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mw4d/2008Oct/0023.html

<steph> http://stats.getjar.com/statistics/

<marie> merci steph

sales figure are not useful

Hendry wants the group to carry out study to ascertain mobile we users in dev. countries

costs of handset is also major barrier

Age could be a factor in mobile web use in developing countries

<marie> cost of usage is the key

costs of data services could be a barrier

<marie> lauri: daily usage figures would be interesting to get

<guibao> the content is a key factor

<hendry> study of the costs of handset & data services would be good too (not just device capability)

costs of handsets and data services are major issues in a mHeath case in Africa

<hendry> Norbert: a second hand phone might be configured with a European (T-mobile) proxy/gateway. So a 2nd hand Web enabled phone in Africa might not work.

Lauri, costs is an issue in a Nokia experience from Africa

<Norbert> Several in response to Norbert: web access is usually not tied to device; carrier will route through its own proxy

SIM card applications might be important in developing countries to overcome handset limitations as in the Cell-Life -www.celllife.org.za

prior exposure to internet or desktop web might be important in adoption

Data on web-enabled phones in Developing Countries

Dan to find out about mobile web enabled handset in developing countries, especially in Africa

Jeffs, good point on OLPC mesh networking

Wagner to share report on mGov in Brazil

<DKA> BBC Digital planet podcasts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/digital_planet.shtml

advanced mobile applications from Brazil

survey to collect mobile phones with web, but it is going to be expensive

using IMEI to track mobile web enabled phones

<hendry> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMEI

collaborative operators on IMEI numbers

IMEI is fit for our purpose for web enabled mobile phone


<guibao> maybe how to serve the user in developed country is useful to the developing countries.

<marie> and who is the user?

<marie> unicode support is a big issue

Norbert- thanks jeffs

<guibao> including the services, security tech

No information mobile web codings

<marie> hard to get good fonts in phones

Yahoo is trying to work on some codings in India

<hendry> r12a & Norbert: raises concerns that mobiles typically don't have input methods (in India) and open type fonts

Java script is useful

<hendry> Norbert: javascript localdate function will probably break as it is often not customised for the locality

local language is an issue with Java script rntime

texts and mobile screen an issue

Lauri, native language important

Nokia experience with local languages in India, with numerous languages is an issue

<hendry> mib_pnh7rs: icons should be considered

text inputs using icons will be very useful

content in local language very important

<hendry> Norbert: example of Y! producting a Vietnamese magazine about how to use the services in step-by-step screenshots

fonts and accessibility important

<Zakim> DKA, you wanted to suggest W3C build and provide a definitive database

Hendry- dejavu font

<marie> hendry: dejavu fonts open source project

<guibao> icons are needed,but the bandwidth is a problem,so the answer is on the terminal device?

linking fonts with document already in W3C work

<hendry> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dejavu_fonts

<marie> http://sourceforge.net/projects/dejavu

Norbert, special fonts for mobile, aside from desktop is essential

<hendry> Lauri: suggests communicating by video

Nokia experience with graphics and images for education positive

local language in written format might be dificult

myths on spoken English rife

<Norbert> India: about 50 million know and are educated in English; another 50 million understand English but prefer local language; 1 billion does not know English

India- wrapping up

Only educated few in developing countries can speak colonial languages such as English, French, Spanish etc...

Norbert to advice within W3C on this group

within the internationalization group

To connect with Norbert on African and Asian internationalization group

<steph> ACTION: stephane to connect with african and asian communities on i18n issues through richard/i18n group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-mw4d-minutes.html#action01]

M-Government- Brazil case

Vagner. presenting on mGov in Brazil

<steph> s/

Vagner om wireless and mobile infrastructure and devices for mGov in Brazil


74% use mobile in Brazil

21% out of 74% users mobile web devices in Brazil

<steph> http://www.cetic.br.tic/2007/indicadores-cgibr-2007.pdf

74% = 140 million people

<Norbert> ...only 25% have desktop or notebook computers

link to Vagner PPT-http://www.cetic.br.tic/2007/indicadores-cgibr-2007.pdf

<jeffs> http://www.cetic.br/tic/2007/indicadores-cgibr-2007.pdf

<Lauri> Corection: http://www.cetic.br/tic/2007/indicadores-cgibr-2007.pdf

<steph> http://www.cetic.br/tic/2007/indicadores-cgibr-2007.pdf

<steph> :)

<steph> sorry

5% of 74% mobile users use devices for internet in Brazil

<Lauri> The file is 5.74 MB, takes long to open here.

advanced uses of mGov services like income tax return declaration in Brazil

<Lauri> document has 358 pages !

<jeffs> bbcnews-tweet "Free text messages to mobile phones will soon be helping encourage South Africans to get tested for HIV." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7688268.stm

<Norbert> Vagner: discussing success stories, starting slide 15

There is a indigenious company in Rwanda that has designed SMS system for customers to pay their energy bills

<Norbert> Vagner: carnival information, bill payment via post office, ...

check out this mHealth case using PDA in Uganda-http://pda.healthnet.org/

<Norbert> Vagner: free information for job seekers, agrobusiness via SMS, state of Parana

teacher and SMS in Kenya-http://tilz.tearfund.org/Publications/Footsteps+71-80/Footsteps+71/Using+mobile+phones+-+Training+teachers+with+text+messages.htm

Check out this article also-http://www.wlv.ac.uk/PDF/cidt-article20.pdf

<Norbert> Vagner: issue: services are all free - who pays? business model? information security and privacy?

Check this link in Kenya-http://thdblog.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/sms-and-text-messaging-for-health/

I have paper on mHealth service business models in developing countries

<steph> links ?

<Lauri> Discussion of the Mobile Internet for Dummies book: http://mobileinternet.typepad.com/dummies/

I will e-mail it to you, kindly remind me

<steph> please mail the list

<steph> it is interesting to all

<steph> jeff: good to hear that the services came from the bottom-up pressure

bottom-up aprroach the driver in Brazil

<Norbert> Vagner: reasons for early adoption of mobile: popular demand for better services; widely available 3G mobile technology; competition between state governments

<steph> vagner: killer applications in brazil:health

<steph> but nobody wants to invest it

<steph> and particularly delivering it for free

<steph> adesina: who is the driver of innovative services?

<steph> in africa: a mix of bottom-up and top-down

<steph> adesina: ngo is the voice of the bottom of the pyramid

www.celllife.org.za uses web

<hendry> hendry: wondering if any services were moving to the Web from SMS?

<hendry> Vagner-br: nothing has changed over the years


<steph> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/MS4D_WS/papers

<steph> http://www.w3.org/2008/02/MS4D_WS/papers/unicef-w3c-presentation.html

<guibao> the key factor is what does the user require and meet it.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: stephane to connect with african and asian communities on i18n issues through richard/i18n group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-mw4d-minutes.html#action01]

[NEW] ACTION: DanA to explore if statistics on phone characteristics available from Vodafone

[End of minutes]