SVG Interest Group Teleconference

09 Oct 2008


See also: IRC log


Andreas_Neumann, Bruce_Rindahl, Christophe_Strobbe, Dave_Porter, Don_Doherty, Gregory_Rosmaita, Helder_Magalhaes, JeffSchiller, Manuel, Rob_Longson, Rob_Russell, Shepazu, Wade_Johnson, Dom_DePasquale_IRC_only




<trackbot> Date: 09 October 2008

<shepazu> oedipus: not yet

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-svgig-minutes.html

<Manuel> ++0049... is me.


<HelderMagalhaes> Hi! :-)

<JeffSchiller> Helder, stelt: care to join the call?

<HelderMagalhaes> Sorry, unfortunately I'm not able to join the conference call, I'll just try to catch up from IRC... :-|

<JeffSchiller> HelderMagalhaes: no problem

<ddepasqu> Hello. I also will not be able to join the conference call

<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

<Bruce> Bruce Rindahl

<JeffSchiller> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig/2008OctDec/0007.html

<stelt> JeffSchiller, i just woke up in a hotel, and managed to get internet at rediculous price. I don't think i can arrange phone quickly too

reminder: meeting info and minutes can be found at: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes

Process, Intros, Etc.

RL: contribute to mozilla
... behind corporate firewall

<HelderMagalhaes> RL: me too, using mibbit.com to workaround a known issue here... ;-)

reminder: meeting info and minutes can be found at: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/IGResources/Minutes

<DavePorter> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi

[fyi] contains meeting details, agenda, minutes, IRC logs, links to help documents, etc.

<JeffSchiller> stelt: np

RL: trying to make code work better when dynamic changes in DOM
... in terms of doing something when make dump change

JS: hobby?

RL: do in spare time
... 40% of code in mozilla from volunteers

JS: new members?

WJ: Wade Johnson - been programmer for long time; ran into SVG 6-8 years ago; played with in free time, never been paid to work for it; put some stuff on web and been on svg-developers' list

RL: background: set up wiki, trying to get community web site up, accessibility activity reinvigoration

JS: conference call time -- DS did you get survey

<JeffSchiller> oedipus: s/RL/JS :)

JS: missing david dailey; problem for some folks - fine with this time, if no major problems

DS: would really like to get DavidD on


JS: community site -- trying to get started, Rob been working on drupal based site -- want to get out there and publicized -- no home yet -- svg.org or similar domain -- Doug domain update?

DS: probably won't hear back from antoine, nor from owner of the domain; if don't hear back shortly can safely assume won't hand ovre

JS: where do we want it at least? planetsvg.com

Rob: svghowto.com - best thing i own

JS: give opinions on emailing list

<HelderMagalhaes> That's a pity, I always though planetsvg.com would be for SVG-related blogs (as most planet* are...)

JS: status of site: not a lot of change since last meeting

Rob: interaction between 2 or 3 modules; haven't spent too much time on it in past while

JS: andreas suggested DOM viewer resource -- wiki forum in which i'd like to see that happen collaborativeley
... books?

Rob: book best way to present info; diff content pages, not just copy-and-paste -- if anyone going to start using rush70.com be aware -- wiki markup is handled by filter module - FlexiFilter; have to test out implementation -- another option is pear; as far as wiki markup, don't know how important to authors on site
... additional feature can be added later, don't want to hold back

JS: lot of people signed up
... andreas, do you want to start book there and i will help fill out

Andres: SVG wiki huge; management problem

DS: we are planning on making a somethingSurvey DOM explorer that would do that test -- too big a job for wiki -- silly to do by hand when can be automated

Andres: should have other DOMs

<JeffSchiller> HelderMagalhaes: the other option is svghowto.com (Rob has this domain)

DS: in terms of starting content on wiki, would be more useful to have things like examples, tricks, how to do common tasks; if want to learn SVG in detail, there is info out there for you where can find DOM info; can't find easily how to accomplish real-world tasks

??: common mistakes should be documented

DS: howto author content for FF - how to migrate from abode viewer to FF -- been very useful; xlink:href

RL: opacity and fill-opacity

DS: first book: SVG tips and tricks

RL: link at top "script" is practical authoring info -- called script library to start with, but can always change

<Manuel> www.vector.net seems dead. Anyone knows, if it's available?

<longsonr> opacity vs fill-opacity

RL: can turn comments on for pages one creates -- if write page about cross-UA issue, that bug could later be fixed

JS: wiki markup not translated

RR: had when had filter enabled - have to change way parses stuff

<Rob_Russell> http://pear.php.net/

GJR: accessibility of drupal

RR: option for filters user can choose -- "input format"

<JeffSchiller> oedipus: s/RL/RR too many Roberts now ;)

GJR: will work with Rob offline on accessibility

<longsonr> ?? common mistakes and opactity vs fill-opacity was me

<an> http://phrogz.net/objjob/default.asp

DS: taken first step - working with one other person - objjob?
... given me source for that -- something interested in doing at W3C when have resources to do it; way to explore all DOMs or all languages from W3C - would also include javascript - one-stop-shop for exploring for method - link back to specifications, etc.

JS: host on w3c site?

DS: yes, that is the plan

<scribe> ACTION: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - - work with Andreas on object browser [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-16].

Andreas: doable; have to find something for unix

DS: has been re-writen

Andreas: what language?

DS: ruby, perhaps?
... would be really useful

trackbot, status?

<HelderMagalhaes> helper link: maybe inspire in qooxdoo (JS framework) API documentation browser (http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/apiviewer/)

Andreas: very slow currently

<DavePorter> To Robert Longson, what are the main faults in Mozilla when accessing / altering the SVG DOM? Is that documented well or somewhere?

DS: have whole list of features for w3c one - searchability important

JS: also contribute books/pages to SVG community site to get seeded

RESOLUTION: site name will be decided on mailing list as quickly as possible

Andreas & Google

JS: update?

A: very brief response from google; told that not decision maker - has to bring to attention of others at google; want to know confluence of research points; told him not yet settled

JS: DavidD suggested september might be too late for those starting university, so perhaps in August

A: first thing to do is get organizer

JS: waiting to hear from them on that; need to identify an organizer

<longsonr> At the moment we are working on making ID changes trackable. that is if you change the id attribute of a pattern, gradient, text-path etc so that it matches existing content xlink:href then the existing content should detect that update

DS: if we have the site, Andreas now has functional software

<longsonr> most of the id matching update is done and it should be complete for fx 3.1

DS: could put out call for papers and start the process -- some people may need to know exactly where will be -- can say in "north america" will keep informed as to exact location, but host doesn't have anything to do with that part of process -- finding other sponsors, calling for papers

<longsonr> there is very little documentation other than looking in bugzilla to determine what doesn't work

JS: timeline: can't draw timeline for paper submission if don't know when conference is

RR: north america is very vague -- funding always a problem

DS: as get more specific pull in more people, but can first get idea of what people are interested in

JS: someone working on website for svg2009open?

A: hoping to reuse existing layout to create new one

<DavePorter> Thanks Robert for the insights--appreciated.

DS: like look of the 2008, but backgrounds not good - tables with images behind them
... another thing on community site is authoring tools and designer tips
... Ruud has been compling lists of links for SVG -- might be interested in sharing some of that on community site

<JeffSchiller> Ruud

<HelderMagalhaes> Andreas: also the site missed some features like RSS feeds and automated anchors (i.e., page#subsection).

JS: should we assign an action to get web site going in context of IG; leave as separate activity

A: fine for me

JS: hopefully hear by next call about sponsorship

Ottawa Testfest

<an> yes, Helder, I received your mail recently about improving the website

JS: Doug and several others attended - thumbnail?

<Rob_Russell> Ottawa Testfest

DS: usual suspects: bitflash, opera and others in SVG WG; tested batik and eSVG and abra from company in australia; motorola also there;
... ran tests in test suite on each implementation; kept spreadsheet open to log passes and fails; decided if test criteria correct; made other decisions about tests itself; have 570 tests, 500 approved, which means that will be added to test suite
... reason have test bed is to ensure that each feature in spec has been tested to ensure that is implementable; not a conformance test suite, but an implementability test suite
... in order to progress, SVG WG has to demonstrate features specified are implementable interoperably
... tests veer off into efficiency and interoperability aspects, but basically test to ensure feature can be implemented

<HelderMagalhaes> Will test fest results be made available to the public? (like the previous interim report at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20070907/matrix.html)

DS: criterion for going into PR -- need at least 2 passes for each test -- one has to be a mobile user agent because this SVG profile specifically for mobile devices
... successful testfest -- SVG has one of deepest test beds at W3C
... did not have complete coverage for all tests, but now browser devs know what holes need to be plugged; 2 weeks from now our deadline
... first pass 25 tests for which didn't have 2 implementations; on subsequent examination, found problem with test and fixed; others (partial) spawned sub-tests; at end, have 10 still need 2 implementatinos for and devs working feverishly on implementing by end of 2 weeks
... test suites are never complete, but good news is most tests passed by most UAs

JS: results published?

DS: because people use as indication of conformance, even though that is NOT what it is for, held off on announcing it; publically available if one looks hard enough; will be publishing in full at TPAC 2009
... didn't want to hurry publication, because wanted to give vendors final chance to show have good coverage for all the features
... right now, test suite uses xml:id for all tests -- since xml:id required by SVG 1.2 Tiny, thinking of forking test suite; tests that don't use xml:id redone to use plain id -- would improve implementation matrix

JS: sounds good - opera support xml:id?

DS: yes

<HelderMagalhaes> @Doug Yes, didn't mean in a short term, I just guess the community would benefit from knowing which features can be used in a mid-term basis... :-)

JS: high performance SVG engines
... new javascript engines that increase performance - would be good to demo

<shepazu> @HelderMagalhaes: yes, agreed

JS: script that generates snow in a page of DIV; used google chrome to get maximum effect
... want more complex demos to show off power not only of SVG but engines themselves
... put up brainstorming page on SVGIG wiki to increase exposure of SVG to general web developers


JS: has accessibility activity; inkscape to put in accessible info (title, desc, etc.); got patches in on windows side, but not linux side

GJR: check against ATAG 1.0 and ATAG 2.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/atag10 http://www.w3.org/TR/atag20)

JS: still have action to put together microtest SVG pages to run through diff browsers to document behaviors so can reach consensus on what browsers should do

<HelderMagalhaes> @JeffSchiller Trying to implement title and desc hack for ASV (script) but currently facing several limitations... :-|

GJR: if need to ping me on ATAG, please do

<JeffSchiller> Helder: sounds good - can we discuss on the mailing list

Bruce: Rob talked about browser SVG plugin for IE -- is plugin for IE that will render SVG -- ActiveX control pare down to SVG or Math component to make available for IE plug in

<HelderMagalhaes> @JeffSchiller: Also, Firefox doesn't support "title" nor "desc", but does support "xlink:title".

Rob: plans to do in near-to-medium term

GJR: mozzie?

Rob: yes

<JeffSchiller> are we talking about http://www.savarese.org/software/mozie/index.html


GJR: mozzie works well and doesn't cause problem with assistive tech

<HelderMagalhaes> Trying to find the time to contribute a simple Batik-based applet viewer. Several things which are somehow blocking, though... (Have no idea on accessibility tech, didn't have thought of that).

GJR: AIA - http://accessinteropalliance

DS: talked with MS about API for general API for graphics - ARIA for diagrams, charts and maps that map to lower level APIs


A: using flash for displaying SVG for complex applications

Bruce: couldn't see the DOM manipulation

GJR: Andrew Kirkpatrick: head of accessiblity at adobe also at AIA
... AIA working groups and projects: http://www.accessinteropalliance.com/aboutus/index.html#Working

<DavePorter> Thank you for this meeting, and I have to drop off now. Cheers from Bellevue, WA, USA.

<Manuel> sorry, have to leave. Bye!

JS: want natively done in IE; in meantime, what to do? standalone plugin has to be downloaded and installed; flash is ubiquitous

GJR: flash has accessibility issues -- being worked on, but still a MAJOR problem

DS: flash in IE very widely deployed

Bruce: if had great plugin, but from company no one knows, people might hesitate; if came from Adobe, then would be more likely to use

<HelderMagalhaes> Does anyone knows how far is Java accessible? Is it an option?

<HelderMagalhaes> (given the large percentage of deployments, not as good as flash but... :-) )

<Bruce> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_0911_ez_ie8.mspx

java has native accessibility built-in, but needs the accessbridge for windows to work with current windows-based screen readers


best practices for flash design: http://www.adobe.com/resources/accessibility/best_practices/bp_fp.html



GJR: notes that one can use pure java speech in the GUI, but not through tools GUI users used to using

shepazu, you are right - today's HTML WG call has been cancelled

when is the next SVGIG call -- the schedule dictates 23 october, but isn't that during TPAC?

<HelderMagalhaes> @oedipus: forget about politeness, use the large hammer instead. ;-)

@helder - command finally got through -- was going to use an industrial strength sledgehammer

preset+ Anthony

current participant list - did i miss anyone? Andreas_Neumann, Bruce_Rindahl, Christophe_Strobbe, Dave_Porter, Don_Doherty, Gregory_Rosmaita, Helder_Magalhaes, JeffSchiller, Manuel, Rob_Longson, Rob_Russell, Shepazu, Wade_Johnson

<ddepasqu> I was on the irc channel only. Not sure if that's what you were asking

<ddepasqu> thanks

<ddepasqu> Yes. Looks good

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Doug - work with Andreas on object browser [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.133 (CVS log)
$Date: 2008/10/09 16:41:18 $

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Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
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Default Present: Shepazu, Gregory_Rosmaita, JeffSchiller, +00499181265aabb, Dave_Porter, +1.713.851.aacc, Manuel, Rob_Russell, Wade_Johnson
Present: Andreas_Neumann Bruce_Rindahl Christophe_Strobbe Dave_Porter Don_Doherty Gregory_Rosmaita Helder_Magalhaes JeffSchiller Manuel Rob_Longson Rob_Russell Shepazu Wade_Johnson Dom_DePasquale_IRC_only
Regrets: David_Dailey
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-ig/2008OctDec/0007.html
Found Date: 09 Oct 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-svgig-minutes.html
People with action items: doug

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